Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[BOgre]

Actually, it would be like complaining that a Premium player had to pay TP 95 each time they wanted to use their Shared Bank.

DDO does have a reasonable subscription rate. And they also have a reasonable rate for the purchase of individual adventure packs. And they've been actively encouraging people to take advantage of the premium model.

I'd just like to see a reasonably priced account option ($15? $20? $25?) that allows people to open adventures on Hard or Elite as a Premium, paying customer. All I'm asking for is the ability to give Turbine more money. Allowing Premium players to buy something isn't hurting VIP players. Why do you care what other people choose to spend their money on?

Another post that hits the nail right on the head. In fact your paragraph 2 cuts very close to the truth that VIPs would like to obfuscate, which is that Turbine is making good money from Premium. Good enough money to have saved the game from an obscurity that the subscribers' dollars could not. Premies are the REAL vips of ddo
((wow, i'm really asking for it with that one... oh well))

[FastTaco]

The new feature is available to anyone, even solo f2p characters.

Anyone can open hard or elite, all they have to do is buy an unlock from the store.

Complaining that Premium accounts can't benefit from the bonus because they cannot unlock elite by default is like saying that Premiums get the short end of XP pots from the store, since VIP's get 'free' points every month to buy their 'free' xp pots; there is still an opportunity cost, those that value it will pay the price.

As for buying store unlocks, I still think they are on the high side of appropriately priced, but I understand why they do it. But under no circumstance can I ever stand behind selling a blanket elite unlock of any sort in the store. DDO has a very reasonable subscription rate for those that choose to support it in that manner. There is no reason to remove one (if the only, as many people assert) of the perks of a subscription.

And while I feel for players that cannot subscribe due to billing issues, the only sort of store unlock that I could ever support to keep this game from slipping even farther into the pay to win category would be a character only hard unlock. Good for one life only. For most people, VIP ends up being less expensive if they are concerned about xp/hour and etc, but for those that may not play quite as often but are still very concerned about xp/hour and maximizing their play time, a hard character unlock for that life lets them take advantage of the Bravery bonus (although not at the highest tier an elite unlocker would.) without the potential abuse of folks farming favor faster/easier with a permanent unlock.

All the hard unlock would do is keep you from having to run normal first, which most people concerned with xp will do later anyway, and most importantly is removed when your favor is reset (ie upon TR) to prevent fast efficient favor farming on mules/alts/etc ie abuse of the favor system. Ultimately this type of unlock would be more expensive than a VIP account on the short term, but less expensive than individual hard/elite unlocks for each quest.

You are promoting a double standard then, VIP can buy it but no one else? Is that not pay to win? Why not? Why do VIP get to potentially abuse favor farming as you put it?

Your XP pot analogy doesn't work, we can buy those. We can't buy blanket unlocks. Why should we have to pay each TR for only hard unlocks? Why should we have to pay for unlocks per character?

Again, why would perks such as a small bonus to loot/tomes/xp/plat not be viable for making VIP perky enough?

Honest questions, I hope you understand.

[BOgre]

Why do VIP get to potentially abuse favor farming as you put it?

What benefit would a VIP have to favor-farm? The point of favor farming is to gain TP to use to buy content. A VIP has no need to do this. Boatman's proposition gives all of us the access to the Bravery mechanic, while preventing the exploits that would subvert VIP privileges.

[Asketes]

Drinking two less starbucks a week = ~$15.00

[theboatman]

I'd just like to see a reasonably priced account option ($15? $20? $25?) that allows people to open adventures on Hard or Elite as a Premium, paying customer. All I'm asking for is the ability to give Turbine more money. Allowing Premium players to buy something isn't hurting VIP players. Why do you care what other people choose to spend their money on?

The issue with an account option that allows people as a Premium to open Hard or Elite creates a feedback loop. There are many people that do 100 Favor runs on Veteran (level 4) characters currently. For 100 Favor, you get 25tp. Most can do this in less than an hour, and those that are very efficient can do so in less than 30 minutes. All turbine would be doing by creating any sort of account wide (or even server wide) unlock is give away tp points, something they only do for VIP's currently. That is the number one reason I can never stand behind anything other than what I stated in my last post.

I also do not think that TR's should get unlocks based on their point build. That is effectively giving away perks for simply playing the game. For the record, I am not a VIP player. I bought large point bundles on sale, and bought account options on sale; I have all of the content/shared bank/a few extra perks unlocked, and have paid less total than had I subscribed the entire time. I also take moderate duration breaks from the game where a subscription is less than optimal for me.

I also have no real bias against an elite version of what I stated earlier, other than a philosophical one. I think that a hard unlock of that theory is adequate, but there is no reason that a more expensive Elite would work, if it was something that turbine chose to explore. But for the same reasons we pay for xp pots, and that tomes dissappear when we tr, this upper level of quest unlocking would have to remain per character only, like the extra character banks, and would never persist through a tr; it would have to reset when favor totals did.

If you want the advantage, you have to pay the price, either subscribe, buy individual unlocks, or (if something of the sort was ever implemented) buy an unlock for each life you want the bonus on.

I don't care what others spend their money on, I just don't think that the advantage that most of the community is clamoring for in this thread can be reasonably priced, while still being reasonable.

[FastTaco]

What benefit would a VIP have to favor-farm? The point of favor farming is to gain TP to use to buy content. A VIP has no need to do this. Boatman's proposition gives all of us the access to the Bravery mechanic, while preventing the exploits that would subvert VIP privileges.

They may 'abuse' favor farming while VIP, cancel sub -> profit.

They may 'abuse' favor farming while VIP, to increase the 500 free TP per month for more XP pots, mnemonic pots, renown elixers, etc.

Really though, favor farming is a PITA and only a few very dedicated people will ever have the patience to truly abuse it THAT much.

Gaining 15000 TP would take 600 favor runs, at 30 minutes(pretty fast) per run it would take 300 hours, 12.5 days... of nothing... but... favor running, and if your not insane by then you may enjoy most the games content freely. Going VIP for a few months would make it easier, free shared bank to xfer items, elite unlocks without second client/account, no need to party for unlocks, 500 TP every month, etc.. until you've met your goal, if your crazy enough to set that goal and follow through with it!

[Gremmlynn]

The new feature is available to anyone, even solo f2p characters.

Anyone can open hard or elite, all they have to do is buy an unlock from the store.

Complaining that Premium accounts can't benefit from the bonus because they cannot unlock elite by default is like saying that Premiums get the short end of XP pots from the store, since VIP's get 'free' points every month to buy their 'free' xp pots; there is still an opportunity cost, those that value it will pay the price.

As for buying store unlocks, I still think they are on the high side of appropriately priced, but I understand why they do it. But under no circumstance can I ever stand behind selling a blanket elite unlock of any sort in the store. DDO has a very reasonable subscription rate for those that choose to support it in that manner. There is no reason to remove one (if the only, as many people assert) of the perks of a subscription.

And while I feel for players that cannot subscribe due to billing issues, the only sort of store unlock that I could ever support to keep this game from slipping even farther into the pay to win category would be a character only hard unlock. Good for one life only. For most people, VIP ends up being less expensive if they are concerned about xp/hour and etc, but for those that may not play quite as often but are still very concerned about xp/hour and maximizing their play time, a hard character unlock for that life lets them take advantage of the Bravery bonus (although not at the highest tier an elite unlocker would.) without the potential abuse of folks farming favor faster/easier with a permanent unlock.

All the hard unlock would do is keep you from having to run normal first, which most people concerned with xp will do later anyway, and most importantly is removed when your favor is reset (ie upon TR) to prevent fast efficient favor farming on mules/alts/etc ie abuse of the favor system. Ultimately this type of unlock would be more expensive than a VIP account on the short term, but less expensive than individual hard/elite unlocks for each quest.

Well I am glad to know just what you will or will not stand for Turbine selling in their store.

As for the potential abuse of players buying elite opening for 100 favor runs. I'm sure Turbine would much prefer this to the current practice of simply using a second free account set up to to open those quests on elite because it would mean they are paying something to do it.

[theboatman]

You are promoting a double standard then, VIP can buy it but no one else? Is that not pay to win? Why not? Why do VIP get to potentially abuse favor farming as you put it?

Your XP pot analogy doesn't work, we can buy those. We can't buy blanket unlocks. Why should we have to pay each TR for only hard unlocks? Why should we have to pay for unlocks per character?

Again, why would perks such as a small bonus to loot/tomes/xp/plat not be viable for making VIP perky enough?

Honest questions, I hope you understand.

It's most definately not a double standard. VIP's put their money in the pot every month. I'm a premium player, and haven't spent a dime in the last year. Probably won't in the near future, due to my situation. I earn enough favor from playing the game to unlock new content as it comes out. Sure I don't buy perks like xp pots/etc very often, but at my current very moderate playtime I can skate by without spending another dime for the next several years...

If a permanent hard/elite unlock was ever released, the situation would only compound. Sure Turbine would get a very short term payment from me to buy the amenity, but my free tp (from favor) intake would be even greater than it is now; I would literally never have to spend another real life unit of currency while still being able to purchase anything I wanted. Keeping it on a character only basis that did not persist through TR would allow me to benefit from faster/more efficient leveling, while still netting Turbine some real life dollars every now and then.

For a lot of the players in this game it's less an issue of the money we spend, its more an issue of time we spend; Ie the more valuable commodity is not the former, it is the latter. That is why many folks continue to be subscribers for the perks, and why any sort of permanent unlock for non-subscribers would be disastrous.

[BOgre]

@fasttaco, yes, you're right about that, there IS a way to abuse the system that way, but I'd say that's going a bit far in terms of effort/profit. But you do have a point. So boatman's prop isn't solving the problem 110%, but it's still a really good idea. Probably not something I'd buy, regardless of price, since i don't really play that way (ask me again after I TR :P). Most of my upcoming $$$/TPs will be going to bank space I'd guess... I hate that I have to pay for inventory slots to be able to keep the gear that I've looted... grrr, but since inventory is in such high demand it makes sense that Turb should profit from selling it.
How did I get off topic there? Head fuzzy, break time.

[psteen1]

really don't see why the OP is mad/concerned. Just pick 5 quests, run them all on normal, then run them all on hard, then run them all on elite. There ya go. Sweet bravery bonus. Sure it is easier for VIPs to do this, but I think they deserve it for keeping Turbine running. But you are not hindered whatsoever in running the above plan.

[mahiro37]

While I understand where a lot of the premium players are coming from who have already spent a lot of money on the game, consider this:

You can become Premium by just spending $7.99 on the smallest point package and never spending another dime.

Why in Hades should you get the same benefits as i do as a VIP?

[FastTaco]

While I understand where a lot of the premium players are coming from who have already spent a lot of money on the game, consider this:

You can become Premium by just spending $7.99 on the smallest point package and never spending another dime.

Why in Hades should you get the same benefits as i do as a VIP?

$7.99 should not get you enough TP to buy an Hard/Elite unlock, we aren't suggesting it be given freely for being a premium player.

[theboatman]

really don't see why the OP is mad/concerned. Just pick 5 quests, run them all on normal, then run them all on hard, then run them all on elite. There ya go. Sweet bravery bonus. Sure it is easier for VIPs to do this, but I think they deserve it for keeping Turbine running. But you are not hindered whatsoever in running the above plan.

Actually, this is incorrect. Not trying to muddy this thread with the details, as there are other threads with the information, but:

If you run a quest on normal before either hard or elite, the bravery bonus is gone for the lifetime of that character, for that quest.

[IamSooty]

The sense of entitlement and pettiness being displayed by some people here is truly disgusting. Didn't someone mention that this bonus was meant by Turbine to be usable by everyone regardless of what kind of player he is? If it's true...

Turbine: Here's a new bonus for everyone!
(Long-time paying?) Premium Player: Wait... it sorta works only for VIPs, we have to jump through hoops to gain the new bonus =(
VIP (for 2 months?): No! VIPs need more incentives to be VIPs. Don't fix it Turbine! >=[

If this picture is correct, the correct response to these selfish VIPs is to ignore them. No amount of logic can convince VIPs, who chose to be VIPs given a choice between Premium and VIP-hood even before they knew about this upcoming Bravery Bonus mind you, that they are not more entitled to anything than other paying players. If Turbine truly intended the bonus to work for everyone, no amount of shouting will stop them from extending the bonus to be more easily attainable by Premium/F2P.

If on the other hand, the picture is like this...

Turbine: Hey everyone, we're going to incentivize subscription more, but we're giving everyone else something too.
Premium Player: Darn, I would have subscribed if I knew this was coming up. Can't you give us more?
VIP: No! VIPs need more incentives to be VIPs!

then Premium Players can really just suck it.

The greatest irony, I think, is that if they implemented this bonus to give ridiculous amounts of XP to VIP, say 100x more XP from bravery bonus for the sake of pushing the logic, the result would be that lots more people will choose the subscription model, which then means that it'll be much more easier for premium players and f2pers to find that elite opener. Next thing you know, VIPs will call for bravery bonus to be removed and replaced with a flat XP bonus that is not extended to anyone else.

[FastTaco]

If a permanent hard/elite unlock was ever released, the situation would only compound. Sure Turbine would get a very short term payment from me to buy the amenity, but my free tp (from favor) intake would be even greater than it is now; I would literally never have to spend another real life unit of currency while still being able to purchase anything I wanted. Keeping it on a character only basis that did not persist through TR would allow me to benefit from faster/more efficient leveling, while still netting Turbine some real life dollars every now and then.

This is an inherent problem with the current model. The best I see to avoid this is to put a minimum level on the premium unlocks. If we had to level veteran characters to atleast level 8 before any quests were unlocked on higher difficulties it would deter any 100 favor->delete->repeat farming using the premium unlocks.

They give hearts away for free(practically). Whats the point of trying to make profits off TR's in other ways then?

[IamSooty]

This is an inherent problem with the current model. The best I see to avoid this is to put a minimum level on the premium unlocks. If we had to level veteran characters to atleast level 8 before any quests were unlocked on higher difficulties it would deter any 100 favor->delete->repeat farming using the premium unlocks.

Ah! That would be so unintuitive. If favor farming was indeed what is problematic, why can't Turbine just implement a solution that specifically prevents it from being abused? For example, making it so that the first set of TP bonus comes with 400 favor for 100 TP, then the rest as per usual? Or perhaps staggering the TP gained so that it is no longer linear, e.g. 100 Favor for 5 TP, 200 favor for 10 TP, etc. all the way up to maybe 1000 favor such that there is no longer a difference between the old model and the new model at that point?

[gloopygloop]

really don't see why the OP is mad/concerned. Just pick 5 quests, run them all on normal, then run them all on hard, then run them all on elite. There ya go. Sweet bravery bonus. Sure it is easier for VIPs to do this, but I think they deserve it for keeping Turbine running. But you are not hindered whatsoever in running the above plan.

Bravery bonus doesn't work that way. You only get the Bravery bonus if you go into each of those quests on Elite *before* you touch them on Normal.

[Gremmlynn]

If a permanent hard/elite unlock was ever released, the situation would only compound. Sure Turbine would get a very short term payment from me to buy the amenity, but my free tp (from favor) intake would be even greater than it is now; I would literally never have to spend another real life unit of currency while still being able to purchase anything I wanted. Keeping it on a character only basis that did not persist through TR would allow me to benefit from faster/more efficient leveling, while still netting Turbine some real life dollars every now and then.

This would only make sense if you could never unlock quests above normal. All elite unlock would do is make getting the top end favor a bit faster during normal play. Anyone who is looking to grind favor runs the same few quests that net them 100 favor over and over on elite unlocked by a friend or second account. All those players buying this would do is give Turbine more money than they otherwise would. All elite opening would do for those of us for whom favor earned TPs are more a side effect of playing than anything else is to allow us to play stuff E, H, N for the xp bonus rather than the N, H, E we do now. The favor is the same either way.

[Calebro]

<+1 for all that>

You hit the nail on the head.
They created this as a great bonus for everyone, but it's only really a bonus for the VIPs. The VIPs can whine all they want about how they deserve it more, but the fact of the matter is that the Devs never even considered the implications of the way that they created it, and even said as much.

Thanks.

Ironically, this started with me trying to add an XP bonus for TR'ing, then grew to include what I described above, but ended up with the TR'ing portion cut (at least for the time being).

And more ironic is that it was never conceived as a VIP perk. There was a thread a while back about TR'ing where I hinted that I wanted to do something to help counter the 'play normal x times vs any other difficulty because it was more efficient' which sounds ultra-boring to me. It also didn't help that I found myself disincentivized to run anything but Normal (at least when soloing).

I personally don't like anyone being prevented from running the quest on the difficulty that best suits them and I hope we can change this at some point soon.

At least the one-time-per-difficulty bonuses were increased and that applies to all players.

So now that I finally decided to go back and find this link, can we all just agree that if the person that created the Bravery Bonus doesn't like the idea that it's not going to be available to everyone, that it really SHOULD be available to everyone? Please?
Thanks.

[FastTaco]

Ah! That would be so unintuitive. If favor farming was indeed what is problematic, why can't Turbine just implement a solution that specifically prevents it from being abused? For example, making it so that the first set of TP bonus comes with 400 favor for 100 TP, then the rest as per usual? Or perhaps staggering the TP gained so that it is no longer linear, e.g. 100 Favor for 5 TP, 200 favor for 10 TP, etc. all the way up to maybe 1000 favor such that there is no longer a difference between the old model and the new model at that point?

That would probably work better.