Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[FastTaco]

You have the same gameplay options, just not as conveniently available.

This is not true, I do not have the option to enter quests on my own on hard/elite difficulties without doing normal/hard first.

There are ways to get around this, but they are not options and are certainly not convienent.

Comparing everything you have to buy as premium to have all the VIP content is, I suggest, doing premium wrong.

Well, everyones opinions matter... mine disagree though.

[IamSooty]

VIP accounts finally get a nice perk and people want to take it away from them.

The logic here is baffling. Premium players want the nice perk too. How is giving it to them taking it away from VIPs? All the talk about how you-lose-nothing-continuing-as-you-are just seems to be lousy logic at best and hypocrisy at worst. How do VIPs lose anything if Premiums get to buy Elite Opening from stores, which they already can, mind you.

And I think FastTaco has it exactly right. Both premium players and VIP players pay to play the game in some form, they've just been utilizing a payment method that turbine has been providing from the very beginning. I choose my payment method based on what suits me.

A small gameplay difference between the two (as there currently is) is fine, but when you start to tip this balance in favor of VIPs long after people have decided which payment method to adhere to, it seems unfair to the Premiums who have already paid up front to play as premium players since they can't decide to switch to the othe track in considering this new "bonus" without making obsolete their earlier purchases. They may not, strictly speaking, lose anything, but I think it is perfectly legitimate for them to voice their displeasure at not being accorded similar benefits to other players whom they might pay as much as.

Bottom line, I think the question to ask is this: should Turbine respect Premium players as much as VIPs (and vice versa)? For the posters I've been directly addressing, do you respect yourself enough to rise above the hypocrisy and pettiness of arguing to deny your fellow players a new and upcoming feature?


Edit (Bonus!): I've only just taken a look at the numbers for Bravery bonus, and I was getting the impression that non VIPs could just do NHE or just NH, then anything but N to continue to get the bravery bonuses. The point I want to make here, though, is that if Premium players can utilize the bonus without having to open elite first and the xp difference is not ultimately ridiculously skewed in favor of VIPs, I am sure most players won't have an issue with it. To reiterate, these numbers matter.

And that said, I recognize why Turbine would be unwilling to let players buy an server based elite-opening option, since it might allow Premium or even F2P players to farm favor too easily. The suggestion for TRs to retain their opening abilities that I read about in the first few pages in some form seems to be most sensible from this standpoint, since they're the ones who need the bonus xp and who can actually do higher difficulties with ease.

[BOgre]

Unfortunately, Turbine can't blanket 'respect' on Premium players (I'm one) because there is a such a wide window of what constitutes Premium. Should a Premie who's bought one $5 TP bundle get the same 'respect' as a Premie who's bought the whole game, races, classes, banks, etc.? With VIPs it's a much easier choice, but still not clear cut, in that a VIP can be so for only 3 months, but at least he or she will only be getting the VIP perks for as along as they remain a subscriber, where as a Premie remains a premie, with all the advantages of Premium, FOREVER, even with just that initial $5 purchase. One would have to know how many premies keep buying, for how long, how much they spend/month or year, and do the math from there to see if giving 'respect' to ALL premies balances out with the perks...
I for one intended to only buy that first $5 pack, in order to unlock char slots, Auctions, and plat cap, but have since spent $100, and I'm 8 months in. That's more than a VIP would have spent by now, so by most VIP's own logic I should be getting ALL the perks of a paying customer. Now, granted, my spending will start to drop off now that I there are only a few things left for me to buy, so when should my perks start to fall off??
That's the trouble with this kind of biz model. It's not equal, so there just can't be equality. VIPs will always feel entitled based on their subscription, Premiums will always feel the same way based on their $s spent. F2Ps will always feel left out and hard done by despite playing for free...

As a premie, I'm feeling that the Bravery bonus is unfair, same as most of the premies who've posted so far. LFM's for elite openers ARE hard to come by, especially during non-peak hours (I play from 12a.m to 3a.m. EST usually). Despite that feeling, I'm not going to go off compalining about it. Yesterday I was all set to play the game based on it's then-current xp mechanic, TR and all... Today nothing has changed. Turbine has made it so that a certain group will be able to play the game faster than me, as it did with Greaters for sale in the store making it possible to gain crafting xp faster. This doesn't really affect me or my gaming experience in any way, so..... carrying on, business as usual.

[luvirini]

I think that the bravery bonus being denied from Premium is simply wrong way to do things (Less wrong to deny it from free, but still somewhat wrong)

There are several ways to "fix" the situation. Some solutions listed below from good to bad. My suggestion is the first one, but..

-Allow anyone to open a quest on any difficulty.
-Allow Premium and VIPs to open any difficulty. This still discriminates against free players, but support the paying customers.
-Allow TRs to open any difficulty reagardless of the player status. This is basically a character based unlock for next lives for all quests.
-Do not reset the maximum level you can open a quest on at TR. This is basically a character based unlock for next lives for quests that you actually ran.
-Change the mechanic to not work on difficulty, but at running above your own level effective quest level. the +5% for one level above and +10% for 2 levels above your level.
-Allow anyone to open hard/vip elite and let the bonus stack to 50% regardless of hard/elite status but at the +5% or 10%/quest rate, thus all can generate the +50% but non vip's just slower.
-Allow premium to open hard/vip elite and let the bonus stack to 50% regardless of hard/elite status but at the +5% or 10%/quest rate, thus also premiums can generate the +50% but just slower. This still discriminates against free players, but support the paying customers, but premiums less than vips.
-Make a server based favor unlock for hard and elite opens, just like Drow, veteran,32pt and favored soul. Suggested values are maybe 3000 for elite and 1375 for hard.
-Allow TRs to open hard in second life and elite third life and onwards.

and ofcourse the ultimate fix:
-Force everyone to play everything on casual only and stop people from entering dungeons over their own level.

[MartinusWyllt]

This is not true, I do not have the option to enter quests on my own on hard/elite difficulties without doing normal/hard first.

There are ways to get around this, but they are not options and are certainly not convienent...

Right I said it wasn't convenient, but you can do it, it requires grouping with someone who can open on elite.

[MartinusWyllt]

I think that the bravery bonus being denied from Premium is simply wrong way to do things (Less wrong to deny it from free, but still somewhat wrong)..

It is not denied. It takes more effort, but it is not denied to either premium or f2p players.

[Sparkyb1981]

Why are people complaining that Premium players deserve this too. NO! I am a VIP, and would hate to see a non-VIP get similar perks. It's called "V.I.P." for a reason people. Most were playing long before F2P and it's about time we get a good bonus. The whole idea is too encourage more people to become VIP, seeing its many advantages. That's great you spent $5 and want all the perks that someone that pays month after month has earned.

[darksol23]

You lose nothing you have now by ignoring this bonus mechanism. I honestly thought it was a joke when I saw the first post with the "bravery" bonus.

To reiterate: you lose nothing continuing as you already are. You can't lose a bonus you never had. If you want that bonus at your leisure then you'll resubscribe. For you and everyone else speculating about Turbine's business...yes, you'd have to wager, we can see no actual revenue numbers, so speculating what is "best" for Turbine is no wiser than spitting into the wind. What you (and everyone else positing what is best for Turbine's business) are really saying is what you want best for you.

I disagree. Premium accounts are losing the ability to play and progress at the same level and speed of those that are VIP. This is not a "perk" or a "bonus", leveling and character progression is a core game mechanic.

If you reverse the scenario and say only premium players will now get a significant bonus, lets say something silly like 50% xp bonus every Monday. Certainly the VIP players would be on the boards expressing their displeasure if they were told: You can't lose a bonus you never had. If you want that bonus at your leisure stop subscribing and purchase the game upfront.

IMHO linking core game mechanics to players choice of payment model is a bad idea.

[Aaxeyu]

Why are people complaining that Premium players deserve this too. NO! I am a VIP, and would hate to see a non-VIP get similar perks. It's called "V.I.P." for a reason people. Most were playing long before F2P and it's about time we get a good bonus. The whole idea is too encourage more people to become VIP, seeing its many advantages. That's great you spent $5 and want all the perks that someone that pays month after month has earned.

Now that's just ignorant.

I have played since launch, and I'm a premium. Is your long dedication to the game somehow valued differently from mine just because you currently are VIP? That's just silly.

If they want to encourage people to become VIP they need to do it by pricing, not by exclusion of features.

[MartinusWyllt]

I disagree. Premium accounts are losing the ability to play and progress at the same level and speed of those that are VIP. This is not a "perk" or a "bonus", leveling and character progression is a core game mechanic.

You cannot lose something you never had in the first place. When this bonus arrives you can still avail yourself of it, it will just take more effort than it will take a subscriber. This is part of what a premium player has chosen.

If you reverse the scenario and say only premium players will now get a significant bonus, lets say something silly like 50% xp bonus every Monday. Certainly the VIP players would be on the boards expressing their displeasure if they were told: You can't lose a bonus you never had. If you want that bonus at your leisure stop subscribing and purchase the game upfront.

It would be silly to complain about losing something someone never had in the first place, your use of hyperbole illustrates that.

IMHO linking core game mechanics to players choice of payment model is a bad idea.

It already is like this. How far can you get if your payment model is free? Is there any favor rewards you are denied? Are they class/race =>gameplay choices you are denied? How about if you spent $6.50 and are now "premium"? Should that entitle you to open on hard/elite?

[Aaxeyu]

You cannot lose something you never had in the first place.

Not true.

[FastTaco]

You cannot lose something you never had in the first place. When this bonus arrives you can still avail yourself of it, it will just take more effort than it will take a subscriber. This is part of what a premium player has chosen.

I never chose to lose game time, because if I want avail myself of this bonus I must rely on others to unlock the quest first.

It would be silly to complain about losing something someone never had in the first place, your use of hyperbole illustrates that.

I some how don't doubt this conversation would be reversed if what you quoted was true. Actually I take that back, I wouldn't argue against anyone whos paid anything for things they believe they should get also.

It already is like this. How far can you get if your payment model is free? Is there any favor rewards you are denied? Are they class/race =>gameplay choices you are denied? How about if you spent $6.50 and are now "premium"? Should that entitle you to open on hard/elite?

I don't think you get it, we wouldn't mind paying for this option. 1000 TP for hard, 2000 TP for elite, or whatever.

We pay, you pay... I don't see how you believe you have grounds for argument.

[Calebro]

It already is like this. How far can you get if your payment model is free? Is there any favor rewards you are denied? Are they class/race =>gameplay choices you are denied? How about if you spent $6.50 and are now "premium"? Should that entitle you to open on hard/elite?

No, it isn't like that.
Let's look at your examples, shall we?

Favor rewards? You can purchase or earn TP to buy the packs and subsequently earn that favor reward. Favor rewards are not tied to a payment method.
Class/race choices? Same thing. Not tied to payment method. Some of them aren't immediately available unless you're VIP, but they're still available.

Find me an actual example of something inherent about a game mechanic that is tied to your payment method, since you seem so sure that they already exist, other than the only one that has just now come into question, which is the difficulty available to open. Before that was not an issue. It was annoying, but acceptable.
Now that this feature comes in conjunction with an actual XP boost that many Premium players will lose out on, it has now become an issue.

[mournbladereigns]

Wait... don't you have the ability to solo now? I'm not seeing how non-VIPs not getting a new perk changes anything for them.

yep, you can earn just as much xp, most likely faster, by doing the standard Normal runs, as before. The 'xp loss' is theoretical.

This just opens up an option for Elite openers, and makes a VIP perk perkier.

[aristarchus1000]

Why are people complaining that Premium players deserve this too. NO! I am a VIP, and would hate to see a non-VIP get similar perks. It's called "V.I.P." for a reason people. Most were playing long before F2P and it's about time we get a good bonus. The whole idea is too encourage more people to become VIP, seeing its many advantages. That's great you spent $5 and want all the perks that someone that pays month after month has earned.

This is just silly, but I guess you want to feel special.

The idea is NOT to encouarge everyone to go VIP. It is to make money. VIP is only one way to do that. VIP-only model represents a model where this game almost got shut down. F2P and Premium is why this game is making money today.

Do people not remember why this game almost failed?

[Sparkyb1981]

Now that's just ignorant.

I have played since launch, and I'm a premium. Is your long dedication to the game somehow valued differently from mine just because you currently are VIP? That's just silly.

If they want to encourage people to become VIP they need to do it by pricing, not by exclusion of features.

Ignorant, really?

Yes, I should be valued higher. All VIP's should.

Agree with last point.

[mournbladereigns]

Why are people complaining that Premium players deserve this too. NO! I am a VIP, and would hate to see a non-VIP get similar perks. It's called "V.I.P." for a reason people. Most were playing long before F2P and it's about time we get a good bonus. The whole idea is too encourage more people to become VIP, seeing its many advantages. That's great you spent $5 and want all the perks that someone that pays month after month has earned.

Actually it stems directly from the TR experience/challenge suggestions. Opening this option up makes it more attractive for TR's to do a larger variety of quests on a higher difficulty, than just grinding the same 10 quests 12 times.

The free elite opener perk is pre-existing. If its that important to you, its only $10 a month for a sweet situational xp pot.

[BOgre]

Probly time for a lock. Things are going around in circles now.

Oh, and by the way, This

[Aaxeyu]

Ignorant, really?

Really.

[gloopygloop]

It already is like this. How far can you get if your payment model is free? Is there any favor rewards you are denied? Are they class/race =>gameplay choices you are denied? How about if you spent $6.50 and are now "premium"? Should that entitle you to open on hard/elite?

Since that's their business model for every other account option, apparently, it works pretty well.

Should someone who spent just $6.50 be able to play Warforged? Should they be able to play Monks or FvS? Should they be able to have a shared bank?

It's pretty obvious that their "F2P/P2P" business model has worked okay so far. I don't think that anyone here is asking for that ability to be granted to F2P/P2P players for free. But it would be nice to have a reasonable opportunity to give Turbine more of our money in order to get this account option at a reasonable price.