Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Dragavon]

People want to play for free, yet they want all the advantages of beeing a paying customer.

People need a reality check.

[Razcar]

People want to play for free, yet they want all the advantages of beeing a paying customer.

People need a reality check.

I think a problem is that if they now boost VIP a bit, it is a very sour deal for a Premium player who has already bought all they need to just abandon all that and switch to VIP.

I'm all for VIP getting a much needed boost (been a subscriber since 5 years now) but I think that if you switch from Premium to VIP you should get back some of the TP you have spent while Premium.

To not have people switch back and forth to earn TP you will have to "give back" some of your Premium packs when turning VIP and you would get, say, half the TP back as an Adventure Pack VIP refund. (Obviously this would just work for perks bought as Premium that VIP's get for free, such as Adventure Packs and character slots).

[Full_Bleed]

People want to play for free, yet they want all the advantages of beeing a paying customer.

People need a reality check.

Wow. I think I know what the problem is.

Some VIP's don't understand what most Premium Player's are.

[Stillwaters]

I think a problem is that if they now boost VIP a bit, it is a very sour deal for a Premium player who has already bought all they need to just abandon all that and switch to VIP.

I'm all for VIP getting a much needed boost (been a subscriber since 5 years now) but I think that if you switch from Premium to VIP you should get back some of the TP you have spent while Premium.

To not have people switch back and forth to earn TP you will have to "give back" some of your Premium packs when turning VIP and you would get, say, half the TP back as an Adventure Pack VIP refund. (Obviously this would just work for perks bought as Premium that VIP's get for free, such as Adventure Packs and character slots).

Its just as sour a deal for those VIP who pay per month, to have the last of their perks handed away via microtransaction, or worse by simply TRing.

Speaking as someone that has unlocked all packs, races, classes and upgrades thru turbines as a PREM, constantly use the Turbine store, and yet STILL went VIP once it got the Elite open option - i dont see this working Razcar.

Personally from my experiences with VIP/PREM i know that should there be a bank error or simple Turbine stuff-up and i get downgraded to PREM, (like what happened to me only 4 weeks ago) i still have access to all my toons, adventures, and account bank.

I am not sour about spending a good deal of $ on a hobby that i truly enjoy, and considering how little effort it takes to get an elite opener for 80% of quests (via LFM) my only conclusion is that those begging for prem (even long term prem) access to hard/elite unlocks is just asking for something that they have neither earned nor paid for.

[Calebro]

I am not sour about spending a good deal of $ on a hobby that i truly enjoy, and considering how little effort it takes to get an elite opener for 80% of quests (via LFM) my only conclusion is that those begging for prem (even long term prem) access to hard/elite unlocks is just asking for something that they have neither earned nor paid for.

I, too, have purchased (just a hair shy of) all of the content and amenities offered after dropping to Premium.
Don't assume that we haven't paid for it just because we aren't a VIP any longer.

The problem with posting an LFM for an elite opener is that many of us that will want to use this feature like to solo the low levels, and IF we decide to toss an LFM up for a quest it's usually something along the lines of this:
Delera's norm speed run, BYOH, farm p2&4, leaving in 3 minutes [levels 5-7]
OK, so I'd change the levels a bit if I was planning on running elite.

Throwing NEED ELITE OPENER onto that LFM.... well, would you join a speed run/BYOH/farm LFM that asked for an elite opener?
I wouldn't....

Premiums should get Hard opened. That would solve the problem with the Bravery system.

[Luxx0r]

EDIT: NVM my math are **** due to my complete confusion about how the bravery bonus works.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I don't really see what the problem is. Nobody would be upset if this wasn't being implemented at all, and XP rates were staying the same as the currently are. Now some of the premium players are mad because they're getting a considerable boost to bonus XP, just not as big of a boost as VIP players who they know they aren't going to group with? Have you guys all forgotten what VIP is supposed to stand for, or have you just gotten so used to getting everything they do that you think you deserve it? Even if it's unintentional (which is frankly unfortunate, IMO), VIPs are in great need of something that actually puts the "I" in VIP.

I realize some Premium players spend just as much if not more than the average VIPs, but there is an intrinsic value to a company of having reliable monthly income that you can count on. And believe me, some VIPs buy points too.

Remember, *everybody* is coming out ahead with these changes. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Calebro]

I run some numbers to try to really understand what we are talking about.
PRESENT TIME-No bravery at all
6XN/H/E = 8572 XP

U11 without openers bravery and new first-time bonus
N/H/6XE = 9936,6 XP

U11 VIP way
6XE/H/N = 11561,6 XP

U11 non-opener more optimal
N/HX6/E = 10097 XP

Have you read the actual breakdown of how the Bravery System works? I'm guessing not.
Check the Dev Tracker, starting with this post, and work your way through the thread that post is in. It's explained in more detail, and your numbers are unfortunately all useless.

[wootvenu]

is there a item in the ddo store to permanently unlock hard and elite difficulties for premier players?

[andbr22]

well I think it will hurt mostly new players.
As most advanced players will run among themselves hard / elite only (where person who looking for learning quest shouldn't appear).

After a while we will have 200 hp / 0% Fort -> newbie Shroud runners.

For me biggest issue is that it is finite number of quests when you can "bump" your difficulties streak.
Low level quest run only norms. Mid level quests run only hard / elites. If you somehow break combo, go back to newbie areas and get your streak.

[BrightAsh]

Option 3 as stated in the topic where this topic comes from:

Allow elite opening after TR. This way, VIPs keep their much wanted perk. But it still removes the much dreaded "grind" in TR

Even moreso, it could be implemented as: Hero build -> hard unlocked; Legend build -> elite unlocked. (bound to character unlock) That way, VIP's keep even more of their perks.

Then one more statement that will drown me with negrep
There is no such thing as a VIP. VIP is just another name for subscribtion member. Basicly VIP is a poorly chosen name cause because of that name people feel special and excpect to be treated as such (understandebly).

Compare it to a subscription from a newspaper. the subscriber gets it homesent, the premium member buys it at the store. No perks, besides the occasional coupon for the subscriber. Subscribers got their coupon on multiple characterslots, the elite unlock, 500 TP a month.

Whatever way you look at it, VIP or not, the above system of unlocking after TR for that character only (and i will quote Madfloyd on this "Great idea!") should make everyone happy. "VIP"s own it right away and for all chars, the rest can have it, but have to work their way up to 20, get 20 epic tokens (or spend cash) for every individual character. VIP's keep their perk, but everyone can TR in a less mindnumbing grind.

Elite Unlock It should NOT be an attainable item in the store for premiums. That would be undermining Turbine's bussiness as anyone could favorgrind to the max and in no-time unlock every store-item that can be attained by favor (champion, FvS etc)

[MartinusWyllt]

I call Bait and Switch.


It's like this:....
I'd leave a cable company that did that to me.

And I think most of you would, too.

Except the cable company told you up-front that this is how it would be: subscribers get the new stuff and you, having "purchased" your channel selection do not.

Not bait-and-switch in the least. Don't subscribe if you don't want to, just deal with finding elite openers, which doesn't seem specifically difficult and you still benefit as if you were a subscriber...so same deal, you just need to have a friend subscribed or set-up a premium elite opener account...like I think was common practice before opening on elite was even an option.

[Esourze]

Elite Unlock It should NOT be an attainable item in the store for premiums. That would be undermining Turbine's bussiness as anyone could favorgrind to the max and in no-time unlock every store-item that can be attained by favor (champion, FvS etc)

Eh no. Selling things in the store IS turbines buissness.

[Alex301]

I wouldn't switch to VIP just to open quests on elite first time. I'd just ask a vip friend or simply put an lfm looking for an elite opener.

If you were to sell the permanent ability to open quests on elite first time in the store then i would buy that though. I think they would make more money by giving non vip players that option.

[Ashbinder]

Thanks for the link above, now it makes more sense. I found the explanation of the Bravery system buried on page 9 of the topic.

Let me try to explain it.

If a quest has never been run by your character (i.e. it's 'virgin' to him/her) then you qualify to get a Bravery bonus by running it on either hard or elite.

Failing and trying multiple times doesn't matter.

Once you complete it on either hard or elite, you get a Bravery Bonus. This is on top of the one time difficulty bonus that you already enjoy.

Now, this quest is no longer 'virgin' and you're free to re-run it 10,000 times without having it affect future Bravery bonuses.

Now you go and complete another virgin quest on hard or elite. This starts a streak. Now you get the one time difficulty bonus, plus a bravery bonus PLUS an additional bonus for having a streak going.

Streaks stack up to 5 times and a completion of Elite counts as both a Hard AND Elite streak. In other words, if you complete Elite 3 times in a row, your streaks look like:

Hard: 3
Elite: 3

A hard streak is 5% per and elite is 10%, so you would get a 30% bonus in this case.

If you end up completing the next virgin quest on Hard, your Elite streak is reset but Hard continues:

Hard: 4
Elite: 0

In this case you get a 20% bonus (4 x 5%).

You can start your Elite streak back up, but because we always apply the highest bonus, you would get 25% for Hard (5 x 5%) until your Elite streak bonus surpassed the Hard streak bonus.

I'm writing this quickly, sorry if I'm not being clear.

MF

I can see why this is upsetting for premium players. Personally I'd vote that if this is a handout for TRs, they allow TRs to unlock hard for Hero and Elite for Legend as per suggestions. Don't know how much incentive there is for them to do this, but as someone who's done the TR grind I'd feel it's a fair trade given we're most likely heavy players and represent a significant return on investment.

[Razcar]

OK I agree with the "keep it VIP"-gang. This is an new feature that is a little better for VIPs, since they won't require an opener. There should be incentives for subscribers, and this might be just it. And yes, I know Premiums buy TP too, but so do us VIPs, along with our sub payments, and guaranteed income beats sporadic.

well I think it will hurt mostly new players.
As most advanced players will run among themselves hard / elite only (where person who looking for learning quest shouldn't appear).

After a while we will have 200 hp / 0% Fort -> newbie Shroud runners.

This is already the case, has been for a long time, and I don't think this new feature will change it either way.

[darksol23]

is there a item in the ddo store to permanently unlock hard and elite difficulties for premier players?

No, you have to buy an unlock for each quest. It would be prohibitively expensive to do this over multiple TRs. IIRC it is 95 points per use. If there was an option to permanently unlock elite for an account for 2000 points or even 4000 points I'd buy it in a heart beat.

As a premium player that does some TR'ing and has PAID (that's right VIPs, premium players pay too) to unlock all the content on two accounts, this is just a slap in the face. The only viable option for premium players to use this bonus will be to keep a favor opener on a second account. I always dualbox when TRing anyway, but I know alot of people that can't due to old computers etc.

[Eladiun]

/not signed

[Carpone]

So as I understand it, it is impossible for F2P/Premium player to get the bravery bonus, unless a VIP unlocks hard/elite for them (or they buy a hard/elite unlock from the DDO store).[/LIST]

People readily forget that Turbine is running a business, not a charity. F2P is only an entry point. I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with this model. It promotes purchasing a feature of the game that is not required at all.

[Xaxx]

No, you have to buy an unlock for each quest. It would be prohibitively expensive to do this over multiple TRs. IIRC it is 95 points per use. If there was an option to permanently unlock elite for an account for 2000 points or even 4000 points I'd buy it in a heart beat.

As a premium player that does some TR'ing and has PAID (that's right VIPs, premium players pay too) to unlock all the content on two accounts, this is just a slap in the face. The only viable option for premium players to use this bonus will be to keep a favor opener on a second account. I always dualbox when TRing anyway, but I know alot of people that can't due to old computers etc.

I love how this is a slap in the face to premiums... but affecting the only perk vips get (sorry the points arent a perk...can get those 500 points for 5 bucks not 10-15) via the store or even partially via trs is just fine. Its fine to add something to premium without adding something to vips but yet its a slap in the face to add something to vip but not to premium.

I say scrap the bravery thing all together as its just causing more bs than anything else and get back to work on the tr exp thing that was mentioned before. Either premiums or vips get screwed... and since this game has went f2p... its been the subscribers who have taken it the worst.... I really do not wish to see that happen again. Remove the system entirely or give it a 1x normal bypass.... do it normal once... ok... do it normal twice.. no bravery.... because lets face it to even go strait up n/h/e is what should be viewed as the normal path anyway.

Putting this bravery bonus in as a help to trs when it will require not being able to run normals much and require constantly running hard/elite to keep your bonus going isnt going to help a whole lot. Most people tring view the quests as xp/min and thats why the higher xp quests are run like they are... you think that giving people an extra 20 or 30 % on a quest worth 2k that takes the same time as a quest worth 5k or 6k takes... when that 20 or 30% will only be good for 1 run... will make them run the other stuff at all.... it wont even affect run style that much... it will affect it some... chains and slayer are quests will be run differently (run it all on hard then elite then farm normal).

Judging by reactions this doesnt help the playerbase that much and will definatly some portion of it badly (premium getting butt hurt that vips get something they dont or vips getting the only reason to stay vip removed from them... which will make alot of em become premiums which will hurt the amount of money which turbine can squeeze from them over the long run)

Just do away with it as a bad idea (and apparently as it requires more work as it seems its not even working correctly in the first place on lama right now)