Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Calebro]

it ended up being like a VIP perk

OK, glad to see you finally agree.
How we got to that point is irrelevant. The fact that we got there is what matters.
So now you can stop arguing that it's not a VIP perk, when you clearly just called it one.

[MartinusWyllt]

OK, glad to see you finally agree.
How we got to that point is irrelevant. The fact that we got there is what matters.
So now you can stop arguing that it's not a VIP perk, when you clearly just called it one.

Wow, dense on purpose.

It is only a "VIP perk" because people like you are whining about how you won't be able to get the bonus because you're not a subscriber....though you can still get the bonus it just requires a little effort on your part more than it will require on my part.

and even where you quoted me "like a VIP perk" is not = to a VIP perk

[kernal42]

Wow, dense on purpose.

It is only a "VIP perk" because people like you are whining about how you won't be able to get the bonus because you're not a subscriber....though you can still get the bonus it just requires a little effort on your part more than it will require on my part.

and even where you quoted me "like a VIP perk" is not = to a VIP perk

I don't think you understand what it means for something to be a perk.
You, as a VIP, get access easily. I, as non-VIP, do not get it without mooching off someone else.
You're at an advantage here because of your VIP subscription. That is a perk of being VIP.

Also, it should be pointed out that expending "a little effort" is not sufficient to take advantage of the bravery bonus. No amount of effort expended will grant a premium player the bravery bonus, until some other player comes along generously opening the higher difficulty.

-Kernal

[Calebro]

Wow, dense on purpose.

It is only a "VIP perk" because people like you are whining about how you won't be able to get the bonus because you're not a subscriber....though you can still get the bonus it just requires a little effort on your part more than it will require on my part.

and even where you quoted me "like a VIP perk" is not = to a VIP perk

OK, which of us is being dense?
This just in!

Well, as it happens we won't be giving everyone the ability to open on Elite, so it remains a VIP perk for the time being.

We are looking into letting characters who TR get access though - as someone suggested earlier in this thread.

Notice he didn't say that it was LIKE a VIP perk. He said it would REMAIN a VIP perk for the time being.
So please stop arguing what you believe he meant and accept his direct words as to what he meant.

[Gremmlynn]

2) VIP's needed more benefits.

Without having access to Turbines financial data, how can you say this? If VIP is Turbines preferred payment option and isn't attracting as many customers as they would like, then yes, they would need more benefits. If this isn't the case then it doesn't. But without access to this data, how can we know what benefits one payment plan should have over another to encourage players to use it or whether the current benefits are sufficient to the cause?

[FastTaco]

Here we have a tier level system, with advertised benefits. Players are allowed to make an informed decision between two different payment methods. People can do the research until the cows come home on what they like and dont like about each plan, but at the end of the day, players who want to be able to use any 'P2P" content have to choose a payment method. Choosing one, then asking for benefits only offered to the other one, simply isnt fair. Its obvious that those who chose premium feel they are benefitting from their choice, or they wouldnt have chosen premium in the first place. There are pros and cons, adequately outlined when that choice was made, and they chose. Want the benefits of VIP? Go VIP. Take the pros and the cons.

This is only possible for players who haven't chosen previously. Premium players who already invested in their choice cannot reverse this and choose again.

You talk of fairness, and what is simply not fair is not giving the same benefits to anyone who is willing to pay.

The pros and cons should go no further then having to paying individually for content or paying small sums every month for everything.

I would rid the game of free TP gained by favor if I could, this seems to be the underlying issue.

[kernal42]

Notice he didn't say that it was LIKE a VIP perk. He said it would REMAIN a VIP perk for the time being.
So please stop arguing what you believe he meant and accept his direct words as to what he meant.

Actually, that does not follow.
MF describes the opening of quests on elite as being the perk, which is agreed upon by all.
MF does not, in the quoted text, describe the ease of taking advantage of the new bravery mechanic specifically as a perk of being VIP.

It still is, of course.

-Kernal

Edit: He does suggest elsewhere that it is in fact a perk:

And more ironic is that it was never conceived as a VIP perk.

[Calebro]

Actually, that does not follow.
MF describes the opening of quests on elite as being the perk, which is agreed upon by all.
MF does not, in the quoted text, describe the ease of taking advantage of the new bravery mechanic specifically as a perk of being VIP.

It still is, of course.

-Kernal

Edit: He does suggest elsewhere that it is in fact a perk:

It's a moot point as that entire conversation is about the Bravery Bonus, and the elite openers only being available to VIPs. They are one and the same.

As to the quote: He doesn't understand the usage if the word ironic in that post, so it isn't going to convince him.

[theboatman]

I don't think you understand what it means for something to be a perk.
You, as a VIP, get access easily. I, as non-VIP, do not get it without mooching off someone else.
You're at an advantage here because of your VIP subscription. That is a perk of being VIP.

Also, it should be pointed out that expending "a little effort" is not sufficient to take advantage of the bravery bonus. No amount of effort expended will grant a premium player the bravery bonus, until some other player comes along generously opening the higher difficulty.

-Kernal

Here is where you are wrong. I can take the little effort of buying an unlock in the ddo store, and bingo, it grants me the bravery bonus. It's as simple as that.

Now I don't think that anyone (myself included) see's that as a long term solution, but saying it is not available to anyone is patently false. See above statement for reminder.

Having said that, A blanket Hard or Elite unlock would have to be prohibitavely expensive to be sold in the DDO store in order to maintain it's value. Otherwise It's like giving away your product way under cost, like pennies on the 10dollar. I'm sure many would have no issue with this, but it's insulting to the players that actually do pay a subscription, and it's insulting to the integrity of the game.

Giving TR's an unlock option is also a farce, as is it so easy to do, and actually accomplishable for f2p players.

The main reason I brought up hard only, not elite, was to maintain that slight edge that Elite first in the sequence maintains over Hard first, so we don't completely spit in the face of the subscribers. While it may not be viewed as a 'successful business model' those players paid for the game and development in its early stages; without them there would be no free to play or premium model.

An alternative to the model I presented earlier (single character store purchase, does not last through TR) would be a favor unlock, with some incredibly high amount of favor. (and maybe still a cost included; you unlock it through favor total, then purchase it/etc) This would allow some sort of soft control as to access, as having access to enough content to amass 4000?/5000?/etc favor would indicate a player that had invested in the game.

[Phidius]

... While it may not be viewed as a 'successful business model' those players paid for the game and development in its early stages; without them there would be no free to play or premium model.
...

You might be surprised as to how many of us that paid for the game and development in its early stages (i.e., before DDO: Eberon Unlimited came out) are in the Premium camp.

If you're holding your breath waiting for Turbine to acknowledge and reward past loyalty and support, I recommend laying down first.

[Aelonwy]

Without having access to Turbines financial data, how can you say this? If VIP is Turbines preferred payment option and isn't attracting as many customers as they would like, then yes, they would need more benefits. If this isn't the case then it doesn't. But without access to this data, how can we know what benefits one payment plan should have over another to encourage players to use it or whether the current benefits are sufficient to the cause?

I don't "know" anything.... I said it was my opinion... and only that..... I feel VIP's needed more benefit. I chose to go premium because I didn't feel there was any incentive to remain VIP (i.e. to me Open on hard/Elite was a meaningless convenience). Had this existed at the time I made my decision maybe I would have chosen differently. But I'm not really upset either way.

[Gremmlynn]

Here is where you are wrong. I can take the little effort of buying an unlock in the ddo store, and bingo, it grants me the bravery bonus. It's as simple as that.

Now I don't think that anyone (myself included) see's that as a long term solution, but saying it is not available to anyone is patently false. See above statement for reminder.

Having said that, A blanket Hard or Elite unlock would have to be prohibitavely expensive to be sold in the DDO store in order to maintain it's value. Otherwise It's like giving away your product way under cost, like pennies on the 10dollar. I'm sure many would have no issue with this, but it's insulting to the players that actually do pay a subscription, and it's insulting to the integrity of the game.

I still don't know how you came to this conclusion

Giving TR's an unlock option is also a farce, as is it so easy to do, and actually accomplishable for f2p players.

The main reason I brought up hard only, not elite, was to maintain that slight edge that Elite first in the sequence maintains over Hard first, so we don't completely spit in the face of the subscribers. While it may not be viewed as a 'successful business model' those players paid for the game and development in its early stages; without them there would be no free to play or premium model.

You do know that not every, possibly not even the majority, VIP account was created before the premium option and not every long time player is still using the VIP payment option.

An alternative to the model I presented earlier (single character store purchase, does not last through TR) would be a favor unlock, with some incredibly high amount of favor. (and maybe still a cost included; you unlock it through favor total, then purchase it/etc) This would allow some sort of soft control as to access, as having access to enough content to amass 4000?/5000?/etc favor would indicate a player that had invested in the game.

4-5k for an account wide elite unlock seems about right to me. But then I don't see the dangers of letting players buy the gaming experience they want as the most efficient way to grind free TPs already has had a work around to let players easily open elite since the introduction of TPs and it hasn't broken the game. The way I see it at most allowing players to blow 4-5K TP will mean they move on from the current content they are playing a bit faster due to better xp payout.

[Thvari]

Not getting the bonus is losing something.

Life is not a zero-sum equation. A bonus is more than is expected not what is expected. A bonus comes from excelling at a task. So you not getting a bonus is not equal to you losing something. All right bravery bounus come from hitting the new levels at close to level. Thus people may group more if they want the bonus...or they will VIP. Either way the game in general will improve either form people learning to work together or from Turbine getting cash for more development from VIP subscriptions.

And to quote the Release Notes.

A new bonus has been created that awards characters for running quests for the first time consecutively on hard and elite difficulties within their level range (up to two levels above the level of a quest on normal difficulty.) This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a character runs a quest they have not run before on Normal difficulty.
XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

No where in this does it say it is only for VIP. It simply requires you to unlock each level and and run it close to level. It can be broken by entering a quest...but there is nothing stopping you from roaming a explorer area killing things for xp to level.

[theboatman]

You might be surprised as to how many of us that paid for the game and development in its early stages (i.e., before DDO: Eberon Unlimited came out) are in the Premium camp.

If you're holding your breath waiting for Turbine to acknowledge and reward past loyalty and support, I recommend laying down first.

Oh I completely understand how many VIP's are now premium, I can take a look at my guild and see that it is a rather large percentage. But it kind of strikes me funny that it is the Premium players (not necessarily the vets from pre f2p, but I won't exclude them either) are asking for that very thing, reward for past loyalty and support (I spent xxx currency on tp's, so why can't I have this without paying a subscription.)

I have never been a subscriber, and never plan to, regardless of the perks. I have spent real life currency in the triple digits to support the game; I look at it the same way as any other non-subscriber computer game, there is an initial cost for access. I see no reason not to pay for the 'box game' as i see it to pay for their time developing it. But I don't play regularly enough to warrant a subscription.

I'm also not holding my breath regarding the VIP's. While it is true that many/most vets went premium at some time, some still resub occasionally, and (this may shock some) there are new players that pay a sub for this game.

[fredericko]

When a customer that is not willing to spend a lot of time grinding to earn crafting xp pays Turbine for saving time on his grind, it is called pay to win.
When a customer that is not willing to spend a lot of time grinding to earn xp on a TR pays Turbine for saving time on his grind, it is called a VIP perk.

[Calebro]

But it kind of strikes me funny that it is the Premium players ... are asking for that very thing, reward for past loyalty and support

We're not asking for rewards for past loyalty. We're asking to not be excluded from a game mechanic based on our payment option.
Not being able to open hard or elite before was annoying, but acceptable.
Not being able to open hard or elite after the Bravery Bonus goes live will effectively be punishment for choosing a certain payment option.

We should not be punished because we chose to purchase the game rather than renting it.

[theboatman]

I still don't know how you came to this conclusion.

Which conclusion? The one that factually states that the bravery bonus is available even to f2p players?

You do know that not every, possibly not even the majority, VIP account was created before the premium option and not every long time player is still using the VIP payment option.

I'm quite aware that many founders are no longer playing with a subscription, if at all. I also realize that many new players prefer a subscription to the premium pay-as-you-go plan. That doesnt mean that subscritptions aren't a large source of revenue and incentive to develop new content. I'm having a debate about the merits of allowing more than normal quest opening on non subscriber accounts, via various methods. I'm trying to stay away from the sub-debate that seems to be lurking in this thread about restructuring the f2p/prem/vip method.

4-5k for an account wide elite unlock seems about right to me. But then I don't see the dangers of letting players buy the gaming experience they want as the most efficient way to grind free TPs already has had a work around to let players easily open elite since the introduction of TPs and it hasn't broken the game. The way I see it at most allowing players to blow 4-5K TP will mean they move on from the current content they are playing a bit faster due to better xp payout.

My post indicated 4-5k favor on a single character to unlock (or unlock the option to purchase) a higher tier unlock.
4-5k tp is not reasonable at all for an account wide elite unlock.

[gloopygloop]

Having said that, A blanket Hard or Elite unlock would have to be prohibitavely expensive to be sold in the DDO store in order to maintain it's value. Otherwise It's like giving away your product way under cost, like pennies on the 10dollar. I'm sure many would have no issue with this, but it's insulting to the players that actually do pay a subscription, and it's insulting to the integrity of the game.

When you say that, you make it seem as if each unlock actually has a cost. That's one of the (very few) nice things about the MMO business. Once you have written something, the only ongoing costs of the code are regression testing (if you choose to do that...) and server time for processing whatever that code does.

I predict that a blanket Hard or Elite unlock would make Turbine a boatload of money (especially if you have to buy a $20 Hard unlock in order to be allowed to buy the $15 Elite unlock) compared to the single quest unlocks. I've never heard of anyone actually buying the single quest unlocks, but I know that there are a bunch of people (myself included) who would buy the Hard/Elite account option unlocks.

Honestly, the only reason I can think of for the individual quest unlock purchase option is to make an eventual account option for Hard or Elite unlock look like a bargain so that we all end up buying it. The individual unlocks are barely worth buying on Lamania.

[theboatman]

We're not asking for rewards for past loyalty. We're asking to not be excluded from a game mechanic based on our payment option.
Not being able to open hard or elite before was annoying, but acceptable.
Not being able to open hard or elite after the Bravery Bonus goes live will effectively be punishment for choosing a certain payment option.

We should not be punished because we chose to purchase the game rather than renting it.

Nothing is keeping you from being able to open hard or elite on a premium account. If you don't like the method of purchasing unlocks from the store, you are free to ask for assistance from another player, or create a second account specifically for elite unlocking, as was mentioned several times in this thread.

No one is being punished because you chose to 'purchase rather than rent.' With the changes to xp, you effectively get a boost without changing your playstyle. Subscribers get a benefit for choosing their payment method.

This issue is not a glass half full/half empty scenario. This is a 'that noob cost me 10% xp when he died' xp "bonus" scenario. When people start looking at the bonus as standard and expected in their calculations, it no longer appears to be a bonus in their mind. This applies directly to the bravery situation. It is not yours to lose, it is your's to gain. Just as the no death xp bonus can be gained by proper teamwork/etc, or just soloing or being elitist and exclusionary; it takes preparation. The same applies to the bravery bonus. If you expect the bonus, you have to work for the bonus. A Subscriber just has the work done for them as part of their package.

[Calebro]

Seriously Boat. You and a few others just can't seem to grasp the concept that some people like to solo.
Stop asking me to group up to get that bonus. Stop asking me to spend a dollar every single time I want to run a new quest.
The fact is that premium players, and especially premium solo players, are going to be penalized on their XP in comparison to VIP players. That's all there is to it.
Playstyle and payment choice should not affect the actual mechanics of the game, but they're about to start doing just that.