Are stunner builds still worthwhile ?

[pappo]

I tried to run a "Hammer and Tongs" build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...60#post1309260 that Sigtrent posted in July 2010.

I just wondered, with all the new updates, is a "stunner" build with warhammers or picks still a good DPS or Tank build now.

[wigthemaster]

i can't speak from a 'melee' stand point but i know that on my monks i love stunning (especially if you build with str).

I'd assume on a melee where your maxing str anyways it would be very hard to have a non useful 'stunning blow' on a fighter, especially with the fact that you can fit it in with all your extra feats with only ~6 taken up automatically (toughness, twf/thf, Imp:Crit:X, power attack).

And tanking is all about holding aggro via hate so as long as you get incite and don't have god awful dps you can technically tank.

~Wig

[hit_fido]

The reason for picks was the 4x damage multiplier on critical hits - now stunned mobs are no longer automatically critically hit. So I'd guess - avoid picks!

Stunning in general, maybe the highlight now is if you like to solo or run in mini-groups where you can help crowd control a little. Otherwise what I find since playing again lately (after stunning and vorpal changes) is that melee has had a lot of the tactical decision making, unpredictability, and therefore fun drained out of group play. Landing a stun on a mob as a melee meant you could dispatch it quickly enough to be useful. Now it means you're going to reduce it's HP faster, but not so much faster that you'll still just see a big red finger drop on it anyway, so what was the point of even stunning it in the first place?

[grodon9999]

No, not since the U9 epic changes. Pick and hammer used to be a great combo to run around with, now you're just better off whacking stuff with Khopeshes and not bothering with the stun.

[Schmoe]

I tried to run a "Hammer and Tongs" build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...60#post1309260 that Sigtrent posted in July 2010.

I just wondered, with all the new updates, is a "stunner" build with warhammers or picks still a good DPS or Tank build now.

I'm running a tempest/kensai stunning blow build that uses warhammers. Warhammers aren't too far behind khopesh on DPS. At level 12, with a stunning +8 weapon, I stun nearly everything I hit. I enjoy it quite a bit, and I think the versatility/CC more than makes up for the loss of DPS. I would say "yes", a stunning build is still worth it. One thing to keep in mind is that you get sneak attack damage against a stunned foe. My character has one level of rogue, plus enhancements, plus Tharne's waiting in the bank, so it adds up.

Heavy picks don't matter much anymore, of course. They are still a solid weapon, but they're not top-of-the-line like they were when a stun was auto-crit.

[Grifarr]

Although the autcrit change in U9 took some of the oomph out of the build I still enjoy running around on my maul wielding stunner kensei. Dual khopeshes willl certainly get you quicker kills but its handy to be able to incapacitate casters and the like. Despite the change you still do solid dps given that you do x1.5 damage on stunned mobs.

[SensaiRyu]

i can't speak from a 'melee' stand point but i know that on my monks i love stunning (especially if you build with str).

SF gets a lvl kick for its DC. SB only gets str mod.
My approx DCs are:
SF ~40 = 10+monk lvl/2+wis mod+stun item, 6 sec cooldown, earth stance, fort save
Kukan ~46 = 10+monk lvl+cha mod+stun item, 12 or 15 sec cooldown, will save
SB ~33 = 10+str mod+item, 12 sec cooldown, sun stance, fort save

I'm running a tempest/kensai stunning blow build that uses warhammers. Warhammers aren't too far behind khopesh on DPS. At level 12, with a stunning +8 weapon, I stun nearly everything I hit.

I used SB and Trip a lot in lower lvl (tempest, gianthold) quests on both my monk and ftr. I'm starting to see them proc less as I get into the vale quests. I have about 36 str and +10 stun/vertigo wraps.

Kensai - 42ish str at lvl 16 in stance, I use stun and it lands on a fair amount on trash. It's starting to land less often as I get into the vale quests and I expect that when I get to Amrath it'll be pretty much useless unless I could get my str to about 50 for the +20 str mod. Still it'll have a lower DC than my monk's Kukan do. I still lead with stun/trip based on the mob.

If my recent uses of SF in epic runs are any indication, SB/trip will be pretty much useless when my Kensai gets there. If I get my str up to or over 50 maybe it'll do better. DC would be 40 = 10base +20str +10weapon. Maybe I'll just never have enuf str to have it useful.

[fool101]

SF gets a lvl kick for its DC. SB only gets str mod.
My approx DCs are:
SF ~40 = 10+monk lvl/2+wis mod+stun item, 6 sec cooldown, earth stance, fort save
Kukan ~46 = 10+monk lvl+cha mod+stun item, 12 or 15 sec cooldown, will save
SB ~33 = 10+str mod+item, 12 sec cooldown, sun stance, fort save



I used SB and Trip a lot in lower lvl (tempest, gianthold) quests on both my monk and ftr. I'm starting to see them proc less as I get into the vale quests. I have about 36 str and +10 stun/vertigo wraps.

Kensai - 42ish str at lvl 16 in stance, I use stun and it lands on a fair amount on trash. It's starting to land less often as I get into the vale quests and I expect that when I get to Amrath it'll be pretty much useless unless I could get my str to about 50 for the +20 str mod. Still it'll have a lower DC than my monk's Kukan do. I still lead with stun/trip based on the mob.

If my recent uses of SF in epic runs are any indication, SB/trip will be pretty much useless when my Kensai gets there. If I get my str up to or over 50 maybe it'll do better. DC would be 40 = 10base +20str +10weapon. Maybe I'll just never have enuf str to have it useful.

Don't forget you also get +1 to DC for each level of Kensai + you get all the fighter enhancements if you were going to spec for it. So you could easily get that at least +5 DC higher there, plus temporary things like power surge and rages

[Qindark]

never forget..a stunned/tripped mob is not hitting you back.

[andbr22]

Yes they are, but I would go for fighter / monk. Corectly build they are able to quite much stun lock any enemy(bah monk by himself is able to do it), especially since stunning fist now gets Character level, NOT monk level.

Also stunning fist >> stunning blow

About picks now I wouldn't bother with them (I personaly have pick figter (with mid stunning capable) that I gona TR to scimies multiclass fighter) the bigest problem is small crit range - you have to score critical in that small window when enemy is vunarable to maximalise your performance - that is not always possible).

[Jaid314]

stunning blow costs you all of one feat. well worth the cost, in my opinion. as far as trying to design your entire build around it, i would say no, but in terms of just investing the feat (and possibly/probably a few AP), i would say it is absolutely worthwhile.

also, on a side note, heavy picks are not half bad in the hands of a kensei III. normally, you only get 19-20/x4 (with improved crit) when using a heavy pick, which actually makes it equal to a scimitar or rapier (usually described as 25 hits worth of damage per 20 swings in either case). in the hands of a tier III kensei, you get 18-20/x4, which is worth 28 hits per 20 swings, while khopesh is 29 hits equivalent per 20 swings. that's pretty danged close, so if you want to use a pick build, it's quite viable (though still not quite as much damage as khopesh, it's actually superior to rapiers and scimitars which nobody will criticise you for using). heck, if you can get your hands on deathnip, it might even be better than a khopesh...

but anyways, while a hammer and pick build is not going to be max dps, it isn't going to be pathetic either. and stunning, quite frankly, i can't see any reason why a fighter wouldn't invest at least the feat into it, even if they don't put anything else in. even if all it amounts to is the ability to CC that enemy caster, that's a pretty big deal.

[game5551]

Kensei II Monk (fighter 12/ Monk 8) (I went strength with some wis. In water stance with buffs have 22 wis)
Fighters get:Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV, Kensei 2 = +2 combat DCs

Stunning Fist: 10+1/2 char level + Wis + Enhancements + Kensei + Stunning wraps
10+10+6+4+2+10=42

Stunning Blow:
10+ Str + Enhancements + Kensei + Stunning wraps
10+11+4+2+10=37

If you went Half-Orc Max Str, basic buffs nothing special (start 20+5 lvl+ 2 ftr enhancement +6 item+1 ship+8 kensei power surge)=42 str which I believe make +16 mod.
Stunning blow: 10+16+4+2+10=42

I like my stunning fist of 42. It equals the stunning blow of a full str half-orc, and I can use it more often. Stuff does die faster, but more importantly to me it does not fight back. I am only level 18, so not trying it in epics any time soon, and I noticed rather useless in normal shroud cause stuff dies so fast, but when farming dt runes etc it is very useful.

I think its usefulness really depends on the party:
Normal pug (people don't necessarily work together all that well, cant rely on everyone) = very useful
Solo (including soloing a side of a dungeon in a group) = very useful
Well geared group that knows what it is doing = not really useful at all

[Tranxx]

with a 42 stun dc, its quite possible to stun most epic mobs. my monk (20 dark monk, str/con build) has a 39 SF DC, and stuns land approximately 60-75% in chains, edq1, and carnival epics (dont have fens or sentinals, and havent run OOB yet). they may not stay stunned for long, but because its SF and not SB, its really easy to spam, and essentially stunlock mobs. the only place my monk has issues is in epic wizking (just try to stun that skele or mummy, it doesnt work), so in there i mainly focus on solid dps with my mabar handwraps, and smiters for the golems.

[Kinerd]

It will be a very worthwhile trash build, an okay boss DPS build, and a poor tank build. As stated in the thread, it's not meant to be a tank.

[Goldeneye]

I'd have to say no.
2 Years ago I made Krythan, a warhammer stunn-focused build.
Just last week I dropped the Stunning Blow feat.
It got nerfed to hell... especially w/ the higher saves, and the loss of auto-crit I wouldn't even think of making a build focused on it (monk is the exception)

[somenewnoob]

Does anybody pick up sap as a feat? Seems like it would be great for somebody who solo's a lot. Been debating whether to get stunning blow or sap, because I do solo a lot.