Update 11 - Confused

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

For one, the key word is fantasy; secondly, if this were a medieval-based game at all, 90% of us would be peasant farmers working for nothing just so we could hide in the local fort when the guys with spears came calling.

Seriously though, this is not the realms- and as much as I love (well, loved back before "spellplague" or whatever they called the reset button) that setting, it's more or less a vast, all-encompassing world, and I'm happy that Eberron really tried to get away from it.
And I'm even more glad that it didn't wind up as "Spelljammer 2".

As far as DDO being headed toward WoW: if the flavor is what really bothers you about that game, go back and play it again. Until every quest becomes "collect 50 of these", it's not enough to concern me.

[Doomcrew]

comparitively quickly, yes.

Around 1320 is the first mention of a handgun in europe, gunpowder having been invented in europe roughly concurrently a century earlier (about the same time as the first gun in china). Firearms didnt' take over the battlefield until well into the 1600s - even during shakespeare's time the longbow was still cheaper and more reliable, and 'guns' were restricted to full size cannon rather than personal weapons. There were some smaller deck guns and indeed some primitive musket type weapons (nicknamed the hand-gonne for obvious reasons).

And regular troops were still using swords up until the napoleonic and american civil wars, which is probably the first war 'fought with guns'. By which time there were also railways, clockwork and so on.

So if we have magical airships and the lightning rail, its entirely reasonable to also have arcane 'firearms'.

I could be wrong here, but doesn't gunpowder date back 2nd-3rd century China?

[dunklezhan]

You say that like it matters.

People draw the line somewhere, and when it comes to the Sword and Sorcery genre, it's usually drawn at firearms and the like. Maybe it's because in all of the iconic epics of the genre, guns don't play a role. Beowulf, King Arthur, Conan, The Lord of the Rings, ad infinitum.

It matters in the sense of the post I was replying to, which is not about whether it fits with a fantasy setting but whether or not it fits with a medieval one.

Now, as it happens, I do tend to agree with you when it comes to black powder based firearms (although I don't mind too much them being in Fantasy as long as there's a good chance of them blowing up in their user's face just like the real ones of the analogous european time period).

But an arcane 'gun' is not really any different to a wand to my mind.

Also - there's been no statement on what these runic armaments are yet. So it is not known if its a blackpowder gun or an arcane gun anyway.



Note also that black powder is basically a chemical reaction, so frankly it's more or less a miracle it took us in the real world as long to stumble on it as it did. I'm constantly amazed that we 'lost' the ability to make Greek Fire and didn't get back to explosive powders till what, two thousand more years had passed? Yet in that time we discovered how to make steel, built the colliseum out of cement modern engineers still don't understand how to make, laid roads across most of western europe and somehow invented bloody silk! I mean who thought of silk? What kind of a sick mind notices a catapillar excreting on a branch and thinks 'hey you know what? I bet that caterpillar spit would make an awesome frock!' And don't get me started on what kind of a person gets the idea that if they tie up a young oak tree just so then in a hundred years their great great grandson will be able to make the keel of a giant warship. That's just wrong.


Anyway.

[dunklezhan]

I could be wrong here, but doesn't gunpowder date back 2nd-3rd century China?

yes. but the first gun in China, which is what I said, was not until 1000-1300 AD.

[Failedlegend]

Yes because it is still the best MMO in the industry hands down. However it does not prevent me from wishing a D&D based game stays as pure to the original version as possible.

First off this is ebberon its a perfect blend of magic and technology without actually having stuff like robots (Warforged are NOT robots their Sentient Constructs)

Second off Forgotten realms is NOT the original setting so I don't know where your getting this form

Third if you don't like it don't play this has been eberron setting from the beginning personally it's my favorite...Forgotten realms is frankly boring (except for Icewind Dale & Neverwinter) besides we already have to many Drow TWF w/ Scimitars named Dwiizit or Dwitz or w/e. (good book series but come on guys)

Fourth this is a game BASED off of 3.5 (and a bit of 4.0 ie. H-Elf) it doesn't need to be exactly the same hell I play both 4.0 and 3.5 (prefer 4.0) and none of the groups Iplay with (except sanctioned events) play without houserules.

[Skavenaps]

this and Neverwinter are my favorites...

Forgotten realms is frankly boring

Do you know that neverwinter is the SAME as FR RIGHT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter

[Failedlegend]

Do you know that neverwinter is the SAME as FR RIGHT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter

Yeah I was saying I like that small part of forgotten realms that and Icewind Dale. I'll rewrite it to make it more clear

[shores11]

See my comments to yours.

First off this is ebberon its a perfect blend of magic and technology without actually having stuff like robots (Warforged are NOT robots their Sentient Constructs) I agree that DDO has prevented Ebberon from going to the extreme on technology.

Second off Forgotten realms is NOT the original setting so I don't know where your getting this form. First before you make false claims I never said The Forgotten Realms was the first setting, I know it was Greyhawke. FR was just the one that took fantasy swords and wizards to D&D's most popular level.
Third if you don't like it don't play this has been eberron setting from the beginning personally it's my favorite...Forgotten realms is frankly boring (except for Icewind Dale & Neverwinter) besides we already have to many Drow TWF w/ Scimitars named Dwiizit or Dwitz or w/e. (good book series but come on guys) Why must some people feel like they have to go to the extreme of "If you don't like it play something else". I never said I did not like DDO but I can have my opinion. So please use a little more content to your feedback other than quit.
Fourth this is a game BASED off of 3.5 (and a bit of 4.0 ie. H-Elf) it doesn't need to be exactly the same hell I play both 4.0 and 3.5 (prefer 4.0) and none of the groups Iplay with (except sanctioned events) play without houserules. Are you really saying half-elfs came around in 4.0? You know the half-elf was one of the original D&D races right all the way back to D&D 1.0.

[Failedlegend]

I never said I did not like DDO but I can have my opinion. So please use a little more content to your feedback other than quit.

I meant you can't complain that their adding a CORE ebberon class in an Ebberon setting thats like saying your upset they put water in a pool.

Are you really saying half-elfs came around in 4.0? You know the half-elf was one of the original D&D races right all the way back to D&D 1.0.

Sorry I guess I didn't explain myself well enough with that I meant that they used the 4e VERSION (albeit somewhat modified) which is awesome cause 3/3.5 H-Elves sucked (despite the fact that I think we have too many bloody elves and the should concentrate on getting unique races added)...1st and 2nd edition I have admittedly no idea I wasn't old enough to play them (I was 14 when 3rd edition came out in 2000...I got some books in 2001 for my birthday and I was sucked in forever until I started playing 4e about a year after it was released and subsequently fell in love with it...still play 3.5 occasionally)

[Neouni]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

So you accept magic, but not items with a barrel that shoot magic ?

[arch0njw]

1 - The AD&D DMG (printed in what, the mid 70's?) had a guide for merging a D&D campaign with both Boot Hill (a wild west style PNP) and Gamma World (a post apocalyptic PNP). The assumption was time travel or plane shifting making this possible.

2 - I recall Unearthed Arcana (an AD&D book released in the 80's) containing a form of musket; I believe there was a magical equivalent of gunpowder also.

3 - There was a module for the AD&D game (forget the name; was the sequel to Dungeonland and based on Alice in Wonderland) where the players started in the home of a wizard. If they for some reason chose to challenge this foe, one of the items he carried was a derringer; no doubt gathered from time traveling or something similar.

So there are three examples from 20-30 years ago of firearms in what you would have to consider a "classic" D&D setting; Greyhawk. The creation of a magical item (not a gun in the sense of modern terms) that resembles a firearm or cannon seems pretty reasonable to me. Just try thinking of it as a hand held mage fire cannon. Really not that big of a deal.

And if we want to pick at the Medieval world, the Chinese had gun powder and were using it while Europe was sifting through the wreckage of the centuries that followed the Roman Empire. The seeds are there for it to be present... which is all one needs in a fantasy game.

That said, I don't want to see it. That would be a huge turn off for me. The WF are ... okay. But if they're going to toss in other classes and doo-dahs, I'd so much rather see polearms (talk about piking!!!), Druids, and genuine familiars.

[MorningStarSE]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

Well this goes for personal tastes. In my humble opinion Forgotten Realm suck hard and I`m not going to force other people into Ravenloft.. (hmm well maybe). But my point is the setting is Eberron and we've to use that setting with everything that come with it (robot vampire and Artificer with laser gun). Eberron isn't too bad, it is just a bit more fantasy than medieval..

I would honestly love to find a PC, or Console game that takes place in the Dragonlance campaign world. Even if it never mentioned 2nd Edition or the original Hero's of the Lance, say, before the War of the Lance?...

Sadly we will never see it.

I liked how Dragonlance handled technology... Gnomes.. Run. Plain and simple... worked 1% of the time, the other 99% it was a random failure.

There are game (very old game) who were using DL and Ravenloft settings back in the day using the kinda old Eye of the Beholder game's UI. I don't remember the name but I remember I've played them on an old mac.

[Gkar]

By accepting the fact that they have exited in most to all DnD rulesets since at least 2nd edition, and perhaps longer?

D&D is based on Chainmail... they have been in since the very beginning, at least as an optional ruleset.

Back in um...was it Expert D&D? they even had lazer guns thanks to one mission where the sword toting adventurers went into an alien facility.

[Cyr]

There are many people who prefer Ebberon over the FR (and I HATE WF). I would take constructs over having to hear about Elminster any day of the week.

Actually the best part of the FR setting was that it was so vast in scope. The world had lots of sub-settings in it that you could use. It was kind of the polar opposite of dark sun which while an interesting setting was pretty repetitive...corrupt rulers, slaves, psions, and lots of desert.

FR had airships in it too, but in some parts of the world you would just not be likely to see them in your lifetime. They had firearms and other pieces of technology. They had an arabian setting, a midevil oriental setting, an egyptian setting, a prehistoric setting...

The whole point was that there was a ton of stuff there that you could mix and match as you saw fit as a DM. Only uncreative and bad DM's ran every campaign in Shadowdale.

[Schmoe]

Let's talk about Dragonlance and Raistlin

Or Greyhawk and Blackmoor...

[Eladiun]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

Ummm... magic. Besides Ebberon is a mix of magic and tech please note the airship. If I can make an airship are you telling me I cannot fire a projectile.

BTW, ever run Ship Wrecked Spy...there are cannons on the boat. Guns have been in DDO for a while.

[gloopygloop]

Do I dare ask what the anti-gun faction thinks of GURPS?

[whitehawk74]

So you accept magic, but not items with a barrel that shoot magic ?

Yes, and no teaching of science in schools.
BURN THE BOOKS!

Like someone mentioned earlier, the game being set in Eberron is secondary to the big name

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS

I dont care about what realm or reality that the game is set it. D&D has a theme, and that theme is magic and steel and defeating evil. At least that is what it has always been to me and why I love it so much.
I was never drawn to Warhammer or the Mechwarrior RPG.

Append: as for flying ships, well I don't think their existence is a reason to allow a heap of other techno stuff. To me its just a bit of fun and just because they fly doesn't break the game in any way.
"Just because you can - doesn't mean you should." - Someone wise...

[Diakos]

To go to the other side of the road, would anyone want to play in a "power level 0" setting like say Dragonlance?
A +1 sword is a noble family heirloom
A Holy longsword is a unique and ancient relic only found in the oldest and greatest to a church.
Level 5-7 wizards are almost godly.
Clerics are more or less walking miracles
And slaying a Dragon (with common non-magical weapons and armor) might reward you a small handful of steel coins.

[Ugumagre]

How do we justify firearms in a medievil based fantasy game?

Wikipedia (and well, multiple history books I have read, but I have not at hand, in the office...)

(...)he first reliable scholarly reference to rockets in China occurs in the Ko Chieh Ching Yuan (The Mirror of Research) which states that in 998 A.D. a man named Tang Fu invented a rocket of a new kind having an iron head.[8] There were reports of fire arrows and 'iron pots' that could be heard for 5 leagues (25 km, or 15 miles) when they exploded upon impact, causing devastation for a radius of 600 meters (2,000 feet), apparently due to shrapnel.[9] The lowering of the iron pots may have been a way for a besieged army to blow up invaders. The fire arrows were either arrows with explosives attached, or arrows propelled by gunpowder, such as the Korean Hwacha.[nb 3] (...)

DeepSkyBlue, you just have to accept that any, really ANY, RPG, PnP or not, ends having firearms and/or psionic.
Take Rune Quest:

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Powder

Rolemaster:

http://laneys.info/book/export/html/757

It is a "natural" development. You keep adding expansions for selling more, and you end with gunpowder.
Sorry.