Update 11 - Confused

[Glenalth]

Thanks for the link as it helped me to find the enclosed link for when Lantan was introduced to The Forgotton Relams.

The highly technological society was introduced in 2001 to The Forgotten Realms. I think the founders might have rolled over in their grave. Thank God it was not in D&D back in the 1970's when I started playing as I might have taken another route.

Lantan existed long before 2001. There is an entry in my boxed set about it from 1987 where it mentions their firearms, fire throwers, and other marvels created by their artificers. It's possible that they mean to say that an expansion covering Lantan was released in 2001 though.

[Glenalth]

I would honestly love to find a PC, or Console game that takes place in the Dragonlance campaign world. Even if it never mentioned 2nd Edition or the original Hero's of the Lance, say, before the War of the Lance?...

Sadly we will never see it.

I liked how Dragonlance handled technology... Gnomes.. Run. Plain and simple... worked 1% of the time, the other 99% it was a random failure.

You're in luck, there are a bunch of Dragonlance games.

[BruceTheHoon]

which means that you've started a thread griping about update 11 the way you imagine it to be based on your previous poor choice in MMO.

...and the provided images.
Personal preferences are always personal, but reasons might not be.
I don't like firearms in my vaguely-medieval RPGs either. Firearms replaced swords & bows & crossbows & battle axes & everything extremely quickly in our history of people killing inventions. Personally, I'm very conservative when it comes to choosing between a sword and a pistol in RPGs.
Although, there are quite a lot of gunpowder cannons in DDO at the moment...

[DocBenway]

1 - The AD&D DMG (printed in what, the mid 70's?) had a guide for merging a D&D campaign with both Boot Hill (a wild west style PNP) and Gamma World (a post apocalyptic PNP). The assumption was time travel or plane shifting making this possible.

Also Star Frontiers!

2 - I recall Unearthed Arcana (an AD&D book released in the 80's) containing a form of musket; I believe there was a magical equivalent of gunpowder also.

Arquebus?

3 - There was a module for the AD&D game (forget the name; was the sequel to Dungeonland and based on Alice in Wonderland) where the players started in the home of a wizard. If they for some reason chose to challenge this foe, one of the items he carried was a derringer; no doubt gathered from time traveling or something similar.

Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.
We also can't forget the vegie pygmies and their lightning sticks in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

[Jiirix]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

Because firearms were part of the medievil warfare? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm They just dont fit the "Knight with a sword" cliche. And D&D is fantasy game with medievil assets but not based on it.

I would have preferd the planescape setting, but I am fine with eberron too. The steampunks elements are part of this setting and make it different from other D&D Worlds. What I dont want is one more Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk rehash with Elminster, Drizzt or Baldurs Gate characters.

[Musouka]

Thanks for the link as it helped me to find the enclosed link for when Lantan was introduced to The Forgotton Relams.

The highly technological society was introduced in 2001 to The Forgotten Realms. I think the founders might have rolled over in their grave. Thank God it was not in D&D back in the 1970's when I started playing as I might have taken another route.

Yet we had Expedition to the Barrier Peaks

A campaign that took the party through a crashed alien ship that had a VAST amount of Technology, even stuff that is scifi to us and futuristic. That came out what? 7 years after D&D started...

[Hephaistor]

Update 11 - hmmmmm.....

More mechanical creatures, arm cannons, whats next muskets and other firearms. I thought I left World of Warcraft.

Things of this nature is exactly why I had and still have a problem with DDO not being founded on The Forgotten Realms.

That's becaucse we are playing the cool new Eberron setting and not some old washed out standart fantasy setting?

[Flavilandile]

IIRC firearms have been around ( beside what was stated about merging with other products ) the DA adventure modules . ( Blackmoor ) [ When you look at the cover of the DA3 you understand... that it's not only firearms that were around long ago. ]

More here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmoor

[Postumus]

1 - The AD&D DMG (printed in what, the mid 70's?) had a guide for merging a D&D campaign with both Boot Hill (a wild west style PNP) and Gamma World (a post apocalyptic PNP). The assumption was time travel or plane shifting making this possible.

2 - I recall Unearthed Arcana (an AD&D book released in the 80's) containing a form of musket; I believe there was a magical equivalent of gunpowder also.

3 - There was a module for the AD&D game (forget the name; was the sequel to Dungeonland and based on Alice in Wonderland) where the players started in the home of a wizard. If they for some reason chose to challenge this foe, one of the items he carried was a derringer; no doubt gathered from time traveling or something similar.

Barrier Peaks was a novelty dungeon module. The Boot Hill/Gamma World stuff was there more for the sake of product cross promotion than serious incorporation into DnD.


The dearth of examples from THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of pages of printed material only serves to prove the rule that guns are not an established part of DnD which has almost always adhered to traditional Sword & Sorcery genre rules.

[Full_Bleed]

1 - The AD&D DMG (printed in what, the mid 70's?) had a guide for merging a D&D campaign with both Boot Hill (a wild west style PNP) and Gamma World (a post apocalyptic PNP). The assumption was time travel or plane shifting making this possible.

Cross promotion from a young company pimping its wares. Not a serious part of the original D&D settings (usually accepted as GH and FR.)

2 - I recall Unearthed Arcana (an AD&D book released in the 80's) containing a form of musket; I believe there was a magical equivalent of gunpowder also.

Incorrect. No such thing appears in the original Unearthed Arcana (came out in 1985.)

3 - There was a module for the AD&D game (forget the name; was the sequel to Dungeonland and based on Alice in Wonderland) where the players started in the home of a wizard. If they for some reason chose to challenge this foe, one of the items he carried was a derringer; no doubt gathered from time traveling or something similar.

So there are three examples from 20-30 years ago of firearms in what you would have to consider a "classic" D&D setting; Greyhawk. The creation of a magical item (not a gun in the sense of modern terms) that resembles a firearm or cannon seems pretty reasonable to me. Just try thinking of it as a hand held mage fire cannon. Really not that big of a deal.

There have been plenty of "experimental" modules over the years but the things you're talking about were not core to the worlds they were based in. Most certainly not in the way that technology is core to the world of Eberron. Indicating otherwise is pure misdirection.

If DDO were based in the Greyhawk world, I can assure you that there would be a much larger revolt at the idea of a class based on the aberrant technology of a few off-the-wall modules like the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be a few Expedition lovers getting moist over the idea. It just means that it's not truly reflective of the body of work that represents the actual campaign world and core mythos.

The Artificer, on the other hand, is very reflective of Eberron and should fit in nicely with the mythos of the game. But that doesn't mean it's something people who tolerate Eberron only for the sake of playing a D&D MMO have to like it.

[Edyit76]

There is a massive advantage to playing in Eberron in that we don't have these "Epic" heros to run to the rescue, we have ourselves, we are the heros not overshadowed by rediculous NPC of lore. Even Dragonlance a series of novels and dungeons I enjoyed fails in this regard though their heros are more limited in scope they existed and fall backs. Forgotten Realms is by far the worse offender as NOTHING you can accomplish as a player will make a difference. This is why I like Eberron despite my dislike for WF.

I'd like to see something in the Ravenloft setting. No hero's there to come save you either.

[dunklezhan]

Firearms replaced swords & bows & crossbows & battle axes & everything extremely quickly in our history of people killing inventions.

comparitively quickly, yes.

Around 1320 is the first mention of a handgun in europe, gunpowder having been invented in europe roughly concurrently a century earlier (about the same time as the first gun in china). Firearms didnt' take over the battlefield until well into the 1600s - even during shakespeare's time the longbow was still cheaper and more reliable, and 'guns' were restricted to full size cannon rather than personal weapons. There were some smaller deck guns and indeed some primitive musket type weapons (nicknamed the hand-gonne for obvious reasons).

And regular troops were still using swords up until the napoleonic and american civil wars, which is probably the first war 'fought with guns'. By which time there were also railways, clockwork and so on.

So if we have magical airships and the lightning rail, its entirely reasonable to also have arcane 'firearms'.

[Xaxx]

Alot of people keep throwing around the word technology... now unless I'm mistaken.... most if not all of the tech we're talking about is magical in nature. Air ships be it eberron or spell jammer get no where without magic... the tram system thats in parts of Khorvaire gets no where without magic..... warforged... not even robots... just constructs whose base material is a special wood. Lets face it... any campaign that introduced wood as a suitable contruct creation material... thered be more constructs and most of em would be of wood.... spend months/years collecting the shaped iron or stone... or human parts for a golem.... or chop down a tree and bring in a wood shaper or three.

Also something to consider with virtually all fantasy worlds... it falls under the rules of magic. Most worlds are low magic worlds... something like if you use magic at all your worthy of note or distrust depending on the world. Eberron is different in that there is low levels of magic flippin everywhere. Give a society access to constant levetation and teleportation spells... their tech will advance faster... and that tech will be built to improve and use the magic they take for granted.... that is the setting of ebberon... low magic everywhere and used everywhere. So as for cannons and firearms.... possible as the protections of magic would allow sience to move forward farther and faster... but most wont go after it as magic would do much more for them in the same instance.

Thats just my 2 cents for the topic.

[whitehawk74]

How do we justify firearms in a medevil based fantasy game?

Thank-you. This is what I have been trying to say but in too many words and way too over complicated. Repped.

[Diakos]

"Warforged... not even robots... just constructs whose base material is a special wood"

By the black heart of Bhaal... they cheated, they cheated, the Artificers' cheated!
They didn't invent anything, they just plane-hopped to Discworld, chopped down the majority of Sapient Pearwood, shaped it into humanoid shapes, put some shiny bits on to make it look inventive and let Morphic Resonanse deal with sentience!

The nerve...
(Sapient Pearwood is a magical wood with strong affinity for magical fields)
(Morphic Resonance is the tendency for things to take on characteristics of whatever they are shaped like)

[dunklezhan]

Thank-you. This is what I have been trying to say but in too many words and way too over complicated. Repped.

Easy. They had firearms in medieval times. There you go.

Edit: In fact, a quick google search...

http://www.medieval-siege-society.co...rydisplay.aspx
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_guns_...medieval_times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowd...he_Middle_Ages
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm#guns


Edit edit: and in fact, none of the above is relevant because we're not talking about gunpowder guns. we're talking about magical guns. To go with the magical people, like wizards, bards, clerics etc. Which also didn't exist in medieval times (ok, bards and clerics and people who called themselves wizards existed. They just didn't have magical powers)

[BruceTheHoon]

comparitively quickly, yes.

Around 1320 is the first mention of a handgun in europe, gunpowder having been invented in europe roughly concurrently a century earlier (about the same time as the first gun in china). Firearms didnt' take over the battlefield until well into the 1600s - even during shakespeare's time the longbow was still cheaper and more reliable, and 'guns' were restricted to full size cannon rather than personal weapons. There were some smaller deck guns and indeed some primitive musket type weapons (nicknamed the hand-gonne for obvious reasons).

And regular troops were still using swords up until the napoleonic and american civil wars, which is probably the first war 'fought with guns'. By which time there were also railways, clockwork and so on.

So if we have magical airships and the lightning rail, its entirely reasonable to also have arcane 'firearms'.

Very informative and that's what I had in mind. 200-300 year transition from your regular DDO inventory to almost complete pew pew, compared to a few thousand years of swinging sharp objects and pulling strings. To me, this feels like we rolled a 1 on a temporal save.

I still don't like firearms in DDO, but that's just my preference.
For me, when presented with a role playing setting containing elves, orcs, goblins, halflings , dragons, swords and bows, the basis is always Tolkien. Firearms are out of place int hat context. Besides, who's ever fought a dragon with a rifle

[ArloOne]

And IMO:

Whats the difference between my wizard or sorcerer casting a fireball from just my bare hands...or from the bracelet around my wrist.

In my opinion its still "fire" from my "arm" kind of.

I am pleased that Turbine is attempting to add some more versatility to our class choices.

I am also looking forward to having some new quests/explorer areas to play around in.

So....about that druid..... *sigh*

Guess I'll go looking for the druid circle again.

[Full_Bleed]

Edit edit: and in fact, none of the above is relevant because we're not talking about gunpowder guns. we're talking about magical guns. To go with the magical people, like wizards, bards, clerics etc. Which also didn't exist in medieval times (ok, bards and clerics and people who called themselves wizards existed. They just didn't have magical powers)

You say that like it matters.

People draw the line somewhere, and when it comes to the Sword and Sorcery genre, it's usually drawn at firearms and the like. Maybe it's because in all of the iconic epics of the genre, guns don't play a role. Beowulf, King Arthur, Conan, The Lord of the Rings, ad infinitum.

All of fantasy has a measure of absurdity to it. But that doesn't mean that I'm cool with a +5 Vorpal Booger of Returning and the accompanying McFlicker Class.

At some point, if you pile too much cheese on a pizza it stops resembling what most of us would call a pizza. It begin to lose its appeal, even if we love pizza. And for many, that's what these technological elements in a D&D world are. Too much cheese and not enough of the other, more desirable, elements to balance it out.

As I've said in other threads, Eberron is what it is. No one is saying that Artificer's aren't part of Eberron. What they *are* saying is that more Eberron is not necessarily a good thing. Heck, look at the logo on the top of this page. I can hardly even read the word "Eberron" on it!

Anyone care to guess what the *real* selling point of this game is?

HINT: It's not "Eberron."

[Koshy11]

And you're complaining about guns? When we don't have dino yet?

Come to think about it, if bringing the guns will somewhat fix pew pew problem *cough* range pass *cough* I don't think I would mind...