Last 2 Feats for a Warforged 18 barb/2 fighter

[Darkrok]

Toon is currently at level 14 (12/2) so I want to plan out my level 15 and 18 feats now to avoid having to respec. Here's some of the ideas I'm kicking around.

1) Toughness + Quickdraw
Toughness is just a nice way to boost the hp's up to crazy levels. 83 extra hp's if you spend all the AP's on Warforged Con and Toughness (16ap altogether) and wouldn't have done so otherwise. Quickdraw is nice for weapon swaps but not critical on a THF toon and while this toon has some boosts it's nothing like a Kensei in that regard.
2) Toughness + Sap
I'm a sucker for controlling the battlefield. I have very good twitch skills and can pick out a favorable enemy to sap and position myself so glancing blows don't wake them. Seems a lot weaker though on a toon that can't bluff to single-pull.

3) Toughness + Toughness
Probably overkill but included this option for completeness as I have kicked it around.
4) Toughness + Great Cleave
Another overkill option given Supreme Cleave but included for completeness.

5) Toughness + Shield Mastery
An interesting idea for times when agro is already set and I'm looking for more survivability. Intim would allow me to get some big boosts to threat while using this method which might allow me to hold agro despite the reduced dps.
6) Toughness + Shield Mastery + Drop Stunning Blow for Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes
As above but would sacrifice stunning blow to get the massive THF bonuses on my attacks.

7) Combat Expertise + Improved Trip
This one may be the most interesting to me of the lot. I've got the items sitting waiting for the epic upgrades in U11 for making an Epic Blademark's Docent. Being able to get a +15 always on (when wearing the docent) Vertigo item, stacked with a barbarian's already high strength, makes trip by itself highly viable. Adding in a +4 to the dc and much more importantly a longer duration and shorter cooldown makes me very tempted to eschew Toughness and go this route. It's not a question to me about whether I'd rather have Improved Trip or Quickdraw/Sap (my other top choices). I'd take Improved Trip in a heartbeat over the other two. It's the idea of giving up Toughness for CE as well. If I went this option though, not having Toughness opens up a ton of AP to take the Warforged Tactics line as well as the fighter trip/stun's first point. The DC's for stuns and trips on this guy would be outstanding then and the trips would last a long time and be on a short cooldown.

Just interested in thoughts from other people out there on what makes sense and especially on whether CE + Improved Trip could be worth it for a player that's capable of making use of them.

[Enoach]

The CE+Improved Trip does sound interesting for such a build as that would mean you have a minimum of 13 (Base+Tome) Intelligence making for a tactical WF Barbarian build. You don't see many barbarians with a Base+Tome Intelligence over 10 as this is one of the Stats that is generally left as is (Drow barbarians being the exception as they start @ 10).

However, What Feats have you taken so far?

Reason I ask is that only the First Toughness Feat unlocks the Enhancements. Each additional Toughness Feat comes out to 23 additional HP gained. However, If you have not taken Toughness at all yet, than I would recommend at least one toughness.

Also, again not knowing your other Feats, have you considered STUN? It also benefits from your Strength and Tactics lines and could be a great control method that is even works well for creatures that are difficult to trip (larger/more then 2 legs).

[Darkrok]

The CE+Improved Trip does sound interesting for such a build as that would mean you have a minimum of 13 (Base+Tome) Intelligence making for a tactical WF Barbarian build. You don't see many barbarians with a Base+Tome Intelligence over 10 as this is one of the Stats that is generally left as is (Drow barbarians being the exception as they start @ 10).

However, What Feats have you taken so far?

Reason I ask is that only the First Toughness Feat unlocks the Enhancements. Each additional Toughness Feat comes out to 23 additional HP gained. However, If you have not taken Toughness at all yet, than I would recommend at least one toughness.

Also, again not knowing your other Feats, have you considered STUN? It also benefits from your Strength and Tactics lines and could be a great control method that is even works well for creatures that are difficult to trip (larger/more then 2 legs).

No toughness yet but do have stunning blow. My entire feat list through 14 is PA, THF, iTHF, gTHF, iCrit Slashing, Cleave, and Stunning Blow.

I know that non-human pure barbarians have to pick one or the other and often go without Toughness. To have the tactical ability that this toon would have might tempt me to go that route. Just in case when I did the build I dropped 1 point out of con and went with an 11 int. I also did that in case I needed to free up extra skill points but I ended up being just fine with the 4 that I got each barbarian level (jump, intim, and UMD maxed out) so I didn't bother with the +1 int tome at 4. So all I need to do is eat a +2 int tome if I decide to go that route.

So the stats are there for any of the methods in question (18str, 19con, 11int, 8dex, 6wis, 6cha)...it's just a question of whether it's worth dumping Toughness to build a tactics-based barbarian.

[Enoach]

Personally I would go with the Toughness. As a barbarian you probably are not going the AC route. More HP means you can last a few more hits.

Also, I would have gone with the +1 Int tome to get the +1 Skill point from Level 4 on as it would have given you 3 points to spend. Using the +2 tome later would than open up CE as an option (net difference is loss of 4 skill points by waiting - 2 full ranks in non-class skills or 4 full ranks in class skills)

Unfortunatly this means you will have to choose which tactic you want... Drop STUN for CE and Take Improved Trip

Of course you could drop any of the others - I wouldn't choose them though.

As for the Shield mastery feat my question is how often are you using a shield since you are a THF build?

[Darkrok]

Just tossing some numbers around with this build and figured I'd post it up to add to the discussion on dumping Toughness here.

With a +2 con tome this toon and no gear, buffs, or rage this toon will be sitting at either 376 or 396hp's depending on enhancements selected (I could see an argument for just going first tier on Barbarian and Warforged con). Gear/feats will add 40 superior false life, 10 draconic vitality, 60 for con+6 item, and 45 greensteel for a total of 531-551 unbuffed and unraged. Rage spell + barbarian rage would add a total of 100 (spell is 20, barbarian rage is a base of 60, and I added 1 point of hardy rage which evened that stat out for another 20). So total hp's would be sitting right around 631 while buffed and raged. A low number for a typical warforged barbarian but good enough for most purposes once the toon is geared up with proper healing amp. Going full-out craziness with enhancements (gutting a lot of other things in the process) could get us up by about 160hp's but much more likely is something in the neighborhood of 80-100 or so (and even then with some sacrifices I'd rather not make to enhancements). That's a lot of extra hp's but I'm much more interested in being a good well-rounded addition in epics/typical raids than in tanking Horoth Elite (and with some gear that actually wouldn't be out of reach anyways).

[Darkrok]

Personally I would go with the Toughness. As a barbarian you probably are not going the AC route. More HP means you can last a few more hits.

Also, I would have gone with the +1 Int tome to get the +1 Skill point from Level 4 on as it would have given you 3 points to spend. Using the +2 tome later would than open up CE as an option (net difference is loss of 4 skill points by waiting - 2 full ranks in non-class skills or 4 full ranks in class skills)

Unfortunatly this means you will have to choose which tactic you want... Drop STUN for CE and Take Improved Trip

Of course you could drop any of the others - I wouldn't choose them though.

As for the Shield mastery feat my question is how often are you using a shield since you are a THF build?

I agree with you on the +1 tome...shoulda woulda coulda. This was a quick and dirty build to play with my kid and I honestly forgot about the +1 tome after popping off the vet ship and didn't remember it until today at level 14. Nice thing is that I'm really only losing out on some balance by not eating the tome so no big loss there.

On the shield usage, not very often right now but I could see this being worthwhile tanking some of the tougher raids. Not really interested in that build to be honest but I included it since it's one of the ones I thought of when I tried to think of a way to spend those last two feats.

You did bring up one interesting option I hadn't considered - dropping Stun for Toughness (levels preclude dropping it directly for CE) taking CE at 15 and Improved Trip at 18. I like having the 2 options though as different mobs have different saves/ability scores that those two moves target and things you might not be able to trip (high dex mobs for instance) could be susceptible to stunning blow. Also, I'd be spending 6-12 ap's on a build like this to up the DC's on all special attacks. Seems a waste to lose out on +2 to +3 free dc's on stunning blow by not taking the feat.

[bendover]

Quickdraw + Sap

[Thrudh]

I like CE and Improved Trip, but if you get the new epic docent that gives +15 to trip, you won't need Improved Trip.

So I vote for Toughness and QuickDraw

[Darkrok]

Quickdraw + Sap

Hrm...you must have really read what I wrote because you've hit on what type of play style I use. I'm looking to play this as a sturdy dps toon that has great melee cc. I don't need the extra hp's and the enhancements are too tight to get full use out of Toughness (I'd probably only spend 6ap's there for the +40 total hp's realistically). I've played a Black Lotus with Sap and find the ability outstanding if you know what you're doing. Sap a melee, trip/kill the caster, bluff pulls/sap/assassinate. I love that style of play.

Sap is an underused feat. Quickdraw though...not sure if I get enough out of it but I see where you're going with the thought process. If I'm willing to drop Toughness for CE to get Improved Trip then I should be willing to do it for Quickdraw. I think that's actually a valid idea - it gives me the extra cc cooldown I would have effectively gotten with improved trip, gives me a third cc option - this time with no save, and and ups the dps to boot.

[Darkrok]

I like CE and Improved Trip, but if you get the new epic docent that gives +15 to trip, you won't need Improved Trip.

So I vote for Toughness and QuickDraw

It's for the reduction in cooldown and longer duration.

Trip is 15 seconds and lasts 30 seconds, improved trip is 10 seconds and lasts 60.

[DaSawks]

IMO pure 20 Barbarian>XBarbarian/X(insert class here).
Having said that I think Toughness and CE if you are going Tanky.
If not Tanky and you want to CC some mobs with Combat feats then Sap or Imp Trip. Never used either of these however it seems you have and enjoy them. Do what makes you happy. Why else would you play?

[Kinerd]

I'm a sucker for controlling the battlefield. I have very good twitch skills and can pick out a favorable enemy to sap and position myself so glancing blows don't wake them. Seems a lot weaker though on a toon that can't bluff to single-pull.

The big downside to Sap is that while you can control your own actions, it is almost impossible to control anyone else's. See also: every bard who found out what Fascinate did.

Regarding the epic docent, I wouldn't build anything around changes that haven't yet been implemented. If and when they come out, you can always LR.

Regarding Quickdraw, Quickdraw also reduces the enforced inactivity times for Frenzy and Death Frenzy. I think you will be very happy with it. You could also spam a combat maneuver (you have quite a few, after all) to break the inactivity time, but with so many boosts this becomes pretty annoying. I think Toughness + Quickdraw is the way to go here.

[Darkrok]

The big downside to Sap is that while you can control your own actions, it is almost impossible to control anyone else's. See also: every bard who found out what Fascinate did.

Regarding the epic docent, I wouldn't build anything around changes that haven't yet been implemented. If and when they come out, you can always LR.

Regarding Quickdraw, Quickdraw also reduces the enforced inactivity times for Frenzy and Death Frenzy. I think you will be very happy with it. You could also spam a combat maneuver (you have quite a few, after all) to break the inactivity time, but with so many boosts this becomes pretty annoying. I think Toughness + Quickdraw is the way to go here.

I didn't know that about Quickdraw and Frenzy/Death Frenzy. That pretty much clinched it for me that Quickdraw's worth it. When it was just my boosts it was one thing. When it's the boosts AND the frenzies (which have to be reapplied a ton) that cements it to me.

That definitely counts Imp Trip out unless I'm giving up Stun for it (which I'd rather not do). Basically whittles things down to Toughness or Sap. I could go either way on that part to be honest. You're definitely right that people do stupid things with Sap'd/Fascinated/Hypno'd mobs but it's a nice tool to have in the toolbox. Toughness is a good number of hp's (63) for 6 additional AP and then more for quite a bit more AP. Both are worthy feats so I'll have to see how things go with just trip and stun in epics.