What does it take?

[Enoach]

I realize that most have stated a 600 or higher number for HP, and I'm not going to say thats a bad baseline. However, I do want to point out that I have successfully Tank Horoth with 550 HP 3+ times, with one of those being on Hard, on my first life of my Paladin(DoS tier3) with a single healer for normal and dual for the Hard run. It does take some equipment though to help with this. Things like World Shaper's cloak (I would still recommend this for 600+ as it gives you a safety net), healing amplification (enhancements as well as gear). Also I was sporting an 82+ AC.

Most of the time I was religated to being the Sulu tank even though I was a human. I have come to believe that the amount of hit points needed is not as high as some think, but each point above a worst case 600 disintegrate is always good.

I would also point out that I did this Sword and Board which is a much different technique then TWF or THF and requires the art of know how to use Shield Blocking to avoid some of the hard hits. And yes I was able to keep agro of which ever I was tanking through use of Intimidate and hate generation and other enhancments available to Paladins for generating hate.


As a healer with over 30 runs ranging from Normal to Elite - I still prefer the high AC/Heal Amp model tanks over the low AC/Heal Amp w/ Extra high HP models. Reason: Stuns can happen, the HP buffer is only as good as the last heal proc. Where the AC reduces the chance of being hit during that time frame.

[Therigar]

A popular end-game gear setup for tanks is this, which includes three set bonuses:

Necklace: Stalwart Necklace
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Belt: Colethenis's Belt
Ring: Ring of the Ravager
Ring: Cinder's Band

Slot Ex Str +2 on the Ravager Ring and Healing Amp 20% on Cinder's Band. That gets you Con +6, Str +6, +4 damage per hit, ex Str +1 and +2, Ex Con +1 and +2, Healing Amp 20% and 30%, Incite 15% and +20%, Heavy Fort, Lesser Action Boost (means extra haste boosts), and stacking Intimidate +5.

Am I the only one that finds it a shame that you need 3 epic items to be a reliable tank in a non-epic quest or that you need at least 1 item that drops only in the quest you are trying to tank?

It implies to me that epics have ruined the game by destroying the playing field in non-epic content. Maybe epic items should have no effect at all in non-epic settings.

[joaofalcao]

I've read that you should have 600+ HP because of Horoth's disintegrate.

If you fail a save, you take 500 dmg. If youre below that, you may die. Thats why folks ask for 700 hp toons.

What most players fail to realize is that a 1000 HP barbarian can die too on a mixed sucession/combination of dazes, power word stuns and nasty spells.

The real deal is to have an insurance plan in case something goes wrong.

Personally, I favor AC characters(80+). They take less damage and ask for less healling. So instead of 3 heallers, you go with 2 heallers and a barbarian instead.

As for hate, there isnt really a visible threeshold. As much as you can get, but if your DPSers refuse to switch eclaw set for echarged gauntlets, you ll have a hard time.

As said before, there are plenty of guides on the forums about it. All you have to do is search for them.

[grodon9999]

I realize that most have stated a 600 or higher number for HP, and I'm not going to say thats a bad baseline. However, I do want to point out that I have successfully Tank Horoth with 550 HP 3+ times, with one of those being on Hard, on my first life of my Paladin(DoS tier3) with a single healer for normal and dual for the Hard run. It does take some equipment though to help with this. Things like World Shaper's cloak (I would still recommend this for 600+ as it gives you a safety net), healing amplification (enhancements as well as gear). Also I was sporting an 82+ AC.

I've tanked Horoth on hard on my 500 HP ranger when the tank died, I had aggro, and we just needed to get the raid done. It's still a bad idea, the hit my fighter took on Saturday would have killed you at 550 HP. Sure the raid can be recovered at the point if they get your up, re-buffed, and you get an intim on the target. hopefully not too many others died while that was going on.

If you're toon's reason to be is to tank raid-bosses you should build them tough enough that this contingency isn't needed except under rare circumstances. 550 HP means if you have any damage at all you're dead if you roll a 1, it's too low.

[Seikojin]

For what it's worth, I think you're reading way too deeply into subtext that wasn't in dkyle's reply.

Yeah, I agree there.

For ToD, I think Dkyles Advice is suited for tanking Horoth. That was the question, and that was his experienced answer.

And for what it is worth, I agree that 650-700+ Hp is a perfectly good minimum for doing that job. It mainly has to deal with the management from the healer (s). There is a lot going on to keep that battle going smooth, and the last thing any healer wants is one or the other aggro tankers getting incapped or killed. I have seen that go down. LOL

I know I don't have a horoth tank for now. And I may never have one. I just add to the dps swarm.

[dkyle]

Am I the only one that finds it a shame that you need 3 epic items to be a reliable tank in a non-epic quest or that you need at least 1 item that drops only in the quest you are trying to tank?

You don't "need" that gear. It's just great gear to have.

Levik's bracers and a 10% amp/15% threat DT are plenty for a Barb or similar character that expects to be among the top DPS in a group.

If you're going to be Sword and Boarding it, yeah, more threat is going to be necessary. But, at least, healing amp is less important in that case, so a triple-threat DT, would be enough.

[Miow]

you guys are forgetting the fleshmaker on the http://ddowiki.com/page/Fleshshaper%27s_Brigandine tis a good source of amp plus you can put +10 to ref or fort save

[Enoach]

I've tanked Horoth on hard on my 500 HP ranger when the tank died, I had aggro, and we just needed to get the raid done. It's still a bad idea, the hit my fighter took on Saturday would have killed you at 550 HP. Sure the raid can be recovered at the point if they get your up, re-buffed, and you get an intim on the target. hopefully not too many others died while that was going on.

If you're toon's reason to be is to tank raid-bosses you should build them tough enough that this contingency isn't needed except under rare circumstances. 550 HP means if you have any damage at all you're dead if you roll a 1, it's too low.

I might also point out that I was the Tank from the Start and Ended as the Tank. So it is doable.

As I pointed out in my post more HP is better. I also pointed out special equipment and the use of Sword and Board Techniques to midigate damage.

Also as a Paladin during the "Waiting" period you can also contribute to your own HP support, through Ardor and Healing amplification, Con-Op and Torc.

Again I'm not advicating this as BASIC, I'm just pointing out that it has and can be done when the person behind the toon has the skills to pull it off.

[grodon9999]

I might also point out that I was the Tank from the Start and Ended as the Tank. So it is doable. . .

. . . as long as you don't roll a 1.

[dkyle]

. . . as long as you don't roll a 1.

Absolutely.

I ended up taking over tanking on my 500-ish HP Light Monk (with no threat amp at all..) once in a spectacularly poorly geared PUG. Due to all the deaths, it was from Horoth at full down to dead. It succeeded (it was even my 20th!), but I have no illusions that is was anything but luck, and a heck of a lot of pots drank by the healers.

That character is certainly not an appropriate Horoth tank.

[Chai]

let him die, problem solved.

I run this in guild 95% of the time and we all know who puts out what threat and how to compensate. if you pull aggro, it's your fault for being a dumbass.

Regarding healing amp . . . 30% from claw and 20% from ToD ring is great but the more the merrier. We have a 950 HP human barb in guild with so much healing amp he may as well be an AC tank.

We have had to do this alot more lately. Im not sure why this happens so much, but there always has to be one overgeared snob in the party who wont effectively nerf themselves by removing threat gear (much of which has bonus DPS on it as well) in order to keep the aggro on the tank. We only let them become a soulstone once. Im not having some hOrc eSOS become horoths healing wand simply because they wont listen and stop pulling aggro. Sucks to have the highest DPS toon in the party out of action, but hey, a completion is a completion.

[Enoach]

. . . as long as you don't roll a 1.

Sure, you can think that but I'm sure I rolled a 1 somewhere during my 3+ times Tanking. The odds are rather in that favor...

Look we can go on disagreeing about this, but my point was that it could be done using a different route. Since I have been there I can speak to my experiences. You have different experiences which have lead you to your beliefs. We have both pointed these out in this thread.

You have pointed out your experience from a Ranger and Fighter point of view. I have pointed out my experience from a Paladin (DoS Tier 3) point of view. These each have different abilities and styles, as trying to play one like the other would only bring disappointment to the builder.

But again who am I? Just a humble person that's been around since '06 helping to define the 'role of' and 'what is' a Tank. People can listen, disregard or even refute my words it is up to them to learn these lessons in the way that they want to.

[Truga]

I personally find it funny how the HP required went from 600 hp at the begining of the thread, to 750+ now. I guess it'll be at 1000+ in a couple pages.

[Enoach]

I personally find it funny how the HP required went from 600 hp at the begining of the thread, to 750+ now. I guess it'll be at 1000+ in a couple pages.

I believe though the reason has to do with the increase in difficulty. A base 600 is normal, while people are going the 750+ for Elite.

I am curious as to build class(es) they are using... Are they using an AC Tank Build or HP Tank Build. Personally I find that the HP Tank Builds and Builders are usually the ones quoting higher HP amounts.

Now, in a more Spell/Elemental damage fight I do agree HP is meaningful as AC does not help you against spells. Only Saves and having more HP than the incoming spell damage.

There are ways to midigate those types of damage, and some class characteristics (enhancements/PrE) or equipment (Absorbtion items) and skills (ie UMD) can make this type of damage midigation easier.

[grodon9999]

Sure, you can think that but I'm sure I rolled a 1 somewhere during my 3+ times Tanking. The odds are rather in that favor...

I'm on well over 50, have rolled a 1 several times and lived through it because I have over 700 HP. At 550 I would have died every time that happened.

Look we can go on disagreeing about this, but my point was that it could be done using a different route. Since I have been there I can speak to my experiences. You have different experiences which have lead you to your beliefs. We have both pointed these out in this thread.

You have pointed out your experience from a Ranger and Fighter point of view. I have pointed out my experience from a Paladin (DoS Tier 3) point of view. These each have different abilities and styles, as trying to play one like the other would only bring disappointment to the builder.

But again who am I? Just a humble person that's been around since '06 helping to define the 'role of' and 'what is' a Tank. People can listen, disregard or even refute my words it is up to them to learn these lessons in the way that they want to.

i don't care if you're been here since 06, you are still giving out bad advise. 550 HP is dangerously low for a Horoth tank.

[grodon9999]

I believe though the reason has to do with the increase in difficulty. A base 600 is normal, while people are going the 750+ for Elite.

I am curious as to build class(es) they are using... Are they using an AC Tank Build or HP Tank Build. Personally I find that the HP Tank Builds and Builders are usually the ones quoting higher HP amounts.

Now, in a more Spell/Elemental damage fight I do agree HP is meaningful as AC does not help you against spells. Only Saves and having more HP than the incoming spell damage.

There are ways to midigate those types of damage, and some class characteristics (enhancements/PrE) or equipment (Absorbtion items) and skills (ie UMD) can make this type of damage midigation easier.

Why build a tank for normal? I'm talking about what's needed to survive hard and elite.

For Elite 700ish if you have AC to get you missed most of the time. 850+ if you're a meatbag getting hit every shot. both should have as much healing amp as possible.

[Enoach]

Why build a tank for normal? I'm talking about what's needed to survive hard and elite.

For Elite 700ish if you have AC to get you missed most of the time. 850+ if you're a meatbag getting hit every shot. both should have as much healing amp as possible.

Whoa there...

I think if you read my posts, without the emotional bagage you are applying you will see that I am advocating more HP. The debate I was contributing to is what is seen as the Minimum needed. And that is very dependent on build.

My response here was to the post "Wow the numbers keep going up ..." that I quoted. I was pointing out that the higher number was seen as the minimum set for Elite. My next part was a question on what builds are using to determine this... Even in the post I quoted you note that if you have the AC it can be in the 700ish, no AC 850+ is better. I've only healed on Elite 10+ times myself, but have over 40+ experience with both Normal and Hard, so I was courious as to how this number was picked.

I admit that my # of times tanking Horroth pales to your # of times and I do understand your points. However, have you even taken the time to understand the points I was making? That it could be done, but requires a heavier burden of gear, enhancements and skill on the Tank than it would with the higher HP margin.

As to it being bad advice I don't think so..., yes I would not advocate a person new to tanking to try it at all or even certain builds or even players. But as of my first life, the 550 HP was where I maxed out with the Gear and enhancements that I had. On my second life, I'm higher due to being able to experience Tanking Horroth at the Lower HP range. However, understand that a Paladin can contribute differently to their survivability than any other Tank type which means they have a different margin for error.

[Cratesmasher]

I personally find it funny how the HP required went from 600 hp at the begining of the thread, to 750+ now.

Well, I think my supposition was 600 and that number was quickly downplayed as being too low. Figuring damage at 70 per second as has been suggested and disintegrate at 500 it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 600 is pushing the lowest possible limits. One glitch in the whole process and it all goes wrong.

From my perspective I was glad to see the discussion on damage and to follow the implications regarding HP. At 750 the character can take 3 hits plus a disintegrate and still be standing. That seems a reasonable safety net.

[TheDjinnFor]

Am I the only one that finds it a shame that you need 3 epic items to be a reliable tank in a non-epic quest or that you need at least 1 item that drops only in the quest you are trying to tank?

It implies to me that epics have ruined the game by destroying the playing field in non-epic content. Maybe epic items should have no effect at all in non-epic settings.

That's just a 'popular end-game setup', certainly not a requirement to do it. If you wanted to start running fairly smooth elite ToDs with a bunch of high-level toons, all that I recommended might be more appropriate. My toon tanks normal ToD without any hate gear and 32% heal amp because I pug it. I'm still trying to get my DT and Stalwart Defender ring.

A base 600 is normal, while people are going the 750+ for Elite.

Just throwing this out there: Horoth's Disintegrate always does exactly 400-600 damage (100d3+300) on all difficulties. 600 is not enough to make Disintegrate irrelevant... 800 is not even enough to make disintegrate irrelevant. You need 800 hp plus like 200% heal amp to make you unkillable in ToD; his DPS will bring you down below 600 regularly otherwise. If you can mitigate his DPS, a 650 hp might be 'unkillable' because his dots are still a factor.

The minimum needed to actually function is like 300 so his dots and melee doesn't kill you and a 27 fortitude save so his disintegrate is minimized. More HP and heal amp than that *may* help prevent a tank death during a disintegrate fail. Sometimes you're unlucky and you get disintegrated for 560 hp when you're at 650 hp, then he takes a swipe at your face.

[TheDjinnFor]

Well, I think my supposition was 600 and that number was quickly downplayed as being too low. Figuring damage at 70 per second as has been suggested and disintegrate at 500 it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 600 is pushing the lowest possible limits. One glitch in the whole process and it all goes wrong.

It's actually 84 damage per claw swing, and 93 per bite.

In terms of his attack AI, it's really random how much damage he does. About 2/3rds of the time he'll melee you, and 1/3 cast a spell; this will take about one second (whether melee or spell), then he'll pause for about half a second. About half the time during melee he'll take two swipes at you for 84 damage each (168 total), or else he'll bite you for 93.