What does it take?

[Cratesmasher]

What does it take to be an effective tank in ToD?

I've read that you should have 600+ HP because of Horoth's disintegrate. If a character has evasion does that reduce a failed save to half damage? I think it should not because disintegrate is a Fortitude save and not a Reflex save.

If I'm right, how high does my Fort save need to be to be at a fail on 1 condition? Has anyone done that calculation or are there any antecdotal references to guide me?

Lastly, how much hate would I need to generate in order to hold either general's attention (Horoth or Suulomades)?

[Doomcrew]

more than that of your raid mates .......

[dkyle]

What does it take to be an effective tank in ToD?

I've read that you should have 600+ HP because of Horoth's disintegrate. If a character has evasion does that reduce a failed save to half damage? I think it should not because disintegrate is a Fortitude save and not a Reflex save.

Evasion does nothing there, but does help some vs. Meteor Swarms.

I would consider 700 the minimum. If you have lots of AC, maybe 650, but no less than that.

If I'm right, how high does my Fort save need to be to be at a fail on 1 condition? Has anyone done that calculation or are there any antecdotal references to guide me?

Don't know, but you shouldn't really care that much. You can't assume you won't roll a 1. You have to be prepared to survive, even with that 1.

Lastly, how much hate would I need to generate in order to hold either general's attention (Horoth or Suulomades)?

Entirely depends on the party you're grouped with, and how much DPS you put out. Pt2 is a good place to judge aggro. If you don't pull aggro there, put on your hate gear in pt3.

[edragoon148]

I'd recommend taking a look at Sirgog's ToD guide. It has a wealth of great information, and I recommend all of my new guildies to read it before they embark on their first ToD venture.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298515

[grodon9999]

On hard ToD on Saturday, my 87 AC fighter took a 501 disintegrate follow by a meteor bukakee and badges, I was down to 18 HP until the heal hit. That was at 740 HP, if I had any less I would have been a corpse.

I think 600 is too low, people do this but it's very risky. Any port in a storm, but if you're building a toon who's goal is to tank Horoth this is not enough.

[Cratesmasher]

<Unhelpful stuff>

Posts like this ^^ aren't helpful.

I'd recommend taking a look at Sirgog's ToD guide.

This ^^ was very informative and answered almost all my questions in the section titled "The Basics." Thank you.

[Zillee]

I've mostly only had to tank horoth in an emergency due to main tank death but I've managed it with 640 ish HP, rubbish ac and minimal hate gear - I kept aggro mainly because everyone else was still hitting on suulo and by the time they got back to horoth I'd been hitting him for a few minutes so it was pretty safe. And the healer was brilliant at keeping me up.

On holding the aggro, you really won't know how much hate gear you need until you try it. I've been in parties where everyone hitting the tail has had to turn off PA and not use any boosts and the tank still couldn't hold it. I've been in others where you could go full out with confidence knowing the tank was solid. Depends on the party and where you fit in in the aggro holding stakes.

[Cratesmasher]

On hard ToD on Saturday, my 87 AC fighter took a 501 disintegrate follow by a meteor bukakee and badges, I was down to 18 HP until the heal hit. That was at 740 HP, if I had any less I would have been a corpse.

Great anecdotal story. Thank you.

[TheDjinnFor]

What does it take to be an effective tank in ToD?

I've read that you should have 600+ HP because of Horoth's disintegrate. If a character has evasion does that reduce a failed save to half damage? I think it should not because disintegrate is a Fortitude save and not a Reflex save.

You're right, evasion doesn't help you. Horoth's disintegrate does 100d3+300 damage, which is equal to the damage done by a maximized, empowered, CL 20 disintegrate. On a successful fortitude save its reduced to 15d3+30.

If I'm right, how high does my Fort save need to be to be at a fail on 1 condition? Has anyone done that calculation or are there any antecdotal references to guide me?

His DC fort disintegrate is 29, so if you have a +27 to fortitude you'll save on a 2. Hard is 30 and elite is 31.

You'll still need high HP because failing on a 1 sucks.

Lastly, how much hate would I need to generate in order to hold either general's attention (Horoth or Suulomades)?

Depends on the group. Generally, if you're a well-geared toon running with well-geared friends, you need a little bit of hate generation to make sure nobody steals it from you. If you're a poorly-geared toon running with pugs (who are probably poorly geared), you need a little bit of hate generation to make sure nobody steals it from you. Warforged/Horc Brute Fighting will suffice. If you're a poorly-geared toon running with great players, you need a lot of hate gen...

More important to focus on is healing amp. More healing amplification just makes scroll-healing you much easier on the divine.

[dkyle]

Posts like this ^^ aren't helpful.

Huh? How was that not helpful?

1) You need HP. I consider 700 the minimum. This isn't pulled out of thin air. I've both tanked, and healed, ToD, many times. I know what works well, and what doesn't.
2) Fort save vs. Disintegrate doesn't matter much, same as Will save vs. Banish doesn't matter much. You should assume you'll fail, and plan accordingly.
3) Specific advice on how to judge whether you need more hate. This cannot be answered in general, because it varies with your party.

Perhaps you just don't like my advice? If you can't reach 700 HP, I think the best advice is "don't tank Horoth unless there is absolutely no better option available".

[Cratesmasher]

More important to focus on is healing amp.

How do I get maximum healing amp? What are the feats, enhancements or gear that I should be targeting?

[edragoon148]

Epic Gloves of the Claw (30% Healing Amp) are a must. (In my opinion of course)
ToD Ring (20%). This stacks with the 30% and if you don't have an Epic Claw set, Levik's Bracers are a viable option. Dragontouched for the above two properties are also great options. (But for those of us with EMari, no thanks ;-))

As an additional note you can get 10% healing amp on DT as well, which is what I use on my soul survivor in conjunction with the options listed above.

[krackythehoodedone]

Depends on who you talk too.

Depends on the difficulty too

From the Healers point of view your high AC intim build with a great healing amp is the favourite. Ive seen a couple of Pali's do this really well

Can keep you up single handed and not use resource

The problem being Johnny show off with his brand new Esos and Mari Chain just cant bring himself to turn power attack off?!

To make a great tank will involve some DPS sacrifices..so the rest of the party including Johnny new Esos and Sid the Savant and his three ticks need to back off whilst you get aggro.

Failing that a BIG Ftr type with a decent healing amp and loads of hit points is next on the list.

But minimum 650 Hit points, with 750 plus being better

Some form of healing Amp be it racial, maybe the ''Claw'' set or on your DT.

I suppose the ''best'' Horoth tank is going to be kinda of a trade off at being able to keep the big guys aggro at the start, coupled with survivability and healability

[grodon9999]

The problem being Johnny show off with his brand new Esos and Mari Chain just cant bring himself to turn power attack off?!

let him die, problem solved.

I run this in guild 95% of the time and we all know who puts out what threat and how to compensate. if you pull aggro, it's your fault for being a dumbass.

Regarding healing amp . . . 30% from claw and 20% from ToD ring is great but the more the merrier. We have a 950 HP human barb in guild with so much healing amp he may as well be an AC tank.

[Enoach]

healing Amp can come from:
See this page for explanation on how they stack as its not always cut-n-dry
http://ddowiki.com/page/Healing_Amplification

Dragontouched Armor
Greensteel
Levik's Brancers (Hound)
Finger Necklace (Fleshmakers)
Jidz-Tet'ka - (House D Sentenals)

Warforged specific
==============
Docent of Blood
Warforged Healers Friend

EPIC
====
Epic Bejeweled Letter Opener (Desert)
Epic Gloves of the Claw (Red Finns)

Enhancements/Past Lives
==========================
Racial Enhancements (Human/Helf)
Past Life Paladin
Monk Enhancements
Paladin PrE - Hunter of the Dead

[dingal]

Evasion does nothing there, but does help some vs. Meteor Swarms.

I would consider 700 the minimum. If you have lots of AC, maybe 650, but no less than that.



Don't know, but you shouldn't really care that much. You can't assume you won't roll a 1. You have to be prepared to survive, even with that 1.



Entirely depends on the party you're grouped with, and how much DPS you put out. Pt2 is a good place to judge aggro. If you don't pull aggro there, put on your hate gear in pt3.

600 is fine on norm, closer to 800 and as much higher as possible on elite.

Lots of healing amp and lots of threat (i.e DPS + hate amplification for the OP if you didn't know).

[edragoon148]

The problem being Johnny show off with his brand new Esos and Mari Chain just cant bring himself to turn power attack off?!

O.o that's usually me, tanking Horoth ofc :-3 although the ESoS is old, and used. But yeah, a lot of good advice from some knowledgeable people in this thread.

[Asmodeus451]

as far as Hate goes, a high Intim will increase hate significantly while attacking

another significant boost comes from an enhancement called Divine Righteousness.

it requires 6 Pally levels to get, but DOUBLES hate gen for 1 min.

6 levels of Pally would also get you the Knight of the Chalice I PrE, which allows you to do aditional damage to Evil outsiders of which Horoth is one, and more DPS = more hate

[TheDjinnFor]

How do I get maximum healing amp? What are the feats, enhancements or gear that I should be targeting?

Ah, well this is a more specific question.

"How much do I need" is subjective. "How do I get it" is not.

I'll outline hate and heal amp for you in a nutshell. Like you probably already know, healing amplification from gear stacks multiplicatively, but not with values of the same number. Right now you can get this healing amp from gear:

x1.30 (T3 Greensteel weapon, Epic Gloves of the Claw)
x1.20 (T2 Greensteel weapon, Levik's Bracers, ToD rings, Dragontouched Tempest)
x1.10 (T1 Greensteel weapon, Dragontouched Eldritch)

Then there are fleshmaker items (a separate form of healing amp) that add to your base healing amplification and stack with the multiplicative sources (this is particularly important for warforged, because they start with a lower base; 10% fleshmaker adds 10% healing amp, 10% of regular healing amp only boosts heal spells by 5% because 0.5 x 1.1 = 0.55).

There's also human and monk enhancements, paladin past lives (and their hunter of the dead prestige enhancement), the Jidz-Tet'ka set bonus for monks in fire stance, and Warforged Healer's Friend Enhancements. Healer's friend also adds to the base rather than multiplying.

See Healing Amplification for details.

Then hate. Like heal amp, hate generation doesn't stack with like amounts, but it does stack multiplicatively. There's +10%/+15%/+20% from gear (and +30% from a 3-peice Levik's Defender set for S&B users), and then Brute Fighting from Warforged/Half Orc (10-25%). There's also the Paladin's Divine Righteousness enhancement (doubles threat), and the Defender of Siberys/Stalwart Defender stances (25%, 33% and 50% for tiers 1, 2 and 3, respectively).

See Hate for details.

A popular end-game gear setup for tanks is this, which includes three set bonuses:

Necklace: Stalwart Necklace
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Belt: Colethenis's Belt
Ring: Ring of the Ravager
Ring: Cinder's Band

Slot Ex Str +2 on the Ravager Ring and Healing Amp 20% on Cinder's Band. That gets you Con +6, Str +6, +4 damage per hit, ex Str +1 and +2, Ex Con +1 and +2, Healing Amp 20% and 30%, Incite 15% and +20%, Heavy Fort, Lesser Action Boost (means extra haste boosts), and stacking Intimidate +5.

[Therigar]

"How much do I need" is subjective. "How do I get it" is not.

In my experience people asking "How much do I need" are really asking "How do I get it." It is inherently and implicitly part of any subjective question that they are not looking for a big is bigger than small type of an answer.

I agree with Cratesmasher that answers to the effect of "enough is enough and not enough is not enough" are not worth the time posting. Posting them is effectively an insult to the person you are replying to and does indeed suggest that you think they were too stupid to know that for themselves.