Ranged DPS isn't bad.

[TheDjinnFor]

I've heard a lot of people say ranged DPS is bad, I never understood that. I have a +5 Shocking Burst Longbow of Pure Good, Wind Howler Bracers, The Blood Stone, Arcane Archer Arrow Imbues, Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot and Bow Strength helps a little, too.

A crappy longbow and no mention of greater banes or slayer arrows isn't helping your case.

Not that I expect you to have greater banes and slayer arrows on 100% of the time, but they're pretty much required in a boss-beatdown scenario to remain competitive when manyshot is down.

First, let's start with just the numbers. These numbers are for a level 14 Ranger. UNBUFFED physical damage can average around 20. Okay, nothing awe-inspiring, but lets continue adding everything else that partakes. In a party (with buffs) I've gotten critical hits over 120, that's JUST physical damage. So about 10% of all hits deal at least 70 physical damage. Now let's look at magical damage.

Let's compare a level 14 horc barbarian to your numbers here:

20 Starting Str +3 levels +6 item +2 rage potion +6 Rage Str +2 ship buff +2 frenzy +2 horc enhancements +1 horc power rage +4 barb power rage
= 48 Str (+19 mod)

+5 Flaming Burst Greataxe of Pure Good
1d12 +5 enhancement +28 Str + 10 Power Attack +4 Horc PA +6 Barb PA +4 Orcish Melee Dmg = 63.5 base damage/swing

Give him bloodstone too. Note that Frenzied Berserker 2 gives him +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20.

Miss (1): 0
Hit (2-18): 63.5 + 1d6 flaming +1d6 pure good +2d6 frenzy = 77.5
Crit (19-20): 254 + 24 bloodstone +1d6 flaming +1d6 pure good +2d6 frenzy +2d10 flaming burst = 303
That's 96.175 damage per swing.

Glancing blows:
At 12 we'll give him just THF, no iTHF or gTHF. That's 30% base damage, 7% special procs, on 2/4 swings.
19*(63.5*0.3 +2d6*0.07 + 2d6)*0.5/20
=12.6065

So that's an average of almost 109 damage per swing. At a hasted attack speed (99 attacks per 60 seconds) that's almost 180 DPS.

With these numbers and a little bit of basic algebra, the average of each hit is ~46 total damage. In the actual game that could be over 50 or 60. (I still don't know why the numbers are higher, but all damage rolls are higher than what is indicated. I see them constantly and have tested it.)

Well you've got about half the attack speed of a barbarian, so you're doing 40 to 60 damage per hit and 33 to 49 DPS. The barbarian is doing over 3.5 times your single-target DPS.

Okay, so that's pretty good, right?

Not really, as shown above. One of the weakest melee classes at mid levels is a Frenzied Berserker. Most of the DPS gains are at low and high levels. So the best case scenario for you, your well-geared ranged character versus a well-geared melee is doing less than a 1/3rd of the DPS... best case for you, assuming your numbers are right. Of course this will change at higher levels but that's just at level 14.

So I've heard some melee classes say they hit for over 100 with each it (I don't even see how that's possible, perhaps someone could enlighten me), assuming that's true, and even though melee attack speed is a little faster than ranged, I'm still not done.

Melee attack speed is about twice as fast as ranged, and scales much better using haste. My barbarian hits for over 100 per hit at level 20, and over 600 on a crit.

With Manyshot (at level 14) the damage triples for 20 seconds. That's 138 total average for each hit with Manyshot. At level 16 the value quadruples. Lest not forget Improved Precise Shot, shall we? Without Manyshot and with Improved Precise Shot, you could say the damage multiplies with each enemy you're hitting, because now you're doing group damage. With Manyshot and IPC together, your damage f***tuples. If you play smart and use Manyshot where it counts, you can easily hose down a beefy group all by yourself in a matter of seconds.

You're right, killing trash is easy because your damage is multiplied through several enemies. Trash killing is usually not too important, although it is valuable.

I didn't even mention arrow types (anarchic, frost, ect.), which would also raise the damage. And Slaying Arrows at level 18 deal 500 additional damage to living targets on a roll of 20. That's quite a bit.

nah, it's just +25 damage per hit on average, a little less than a frenzied berserker gains from the greater vicious property that is applied to his weapons at level 18 (and not including the crit multiplier bonus he gains from it as well). 4d6 damage on all hits and glancing blows and +4 strength > slayer arrows during single target DPS situations.

Now enough on numbers, let's depict the phrase "damage per second." Consider the amount of time it could take for a melee to run up to an enemy. A few seconds? More? A skilled archer can start attacking right away and kill them before the enemy even reaches them. In a way, you lose DPS just by trying to reach said enemy. I know it's not always practical in a party to range attack things too far away, thus grabbing too much aggro for you and your group, but it works often times.

Ranged attackers have a perk that melee do not... range. There are scenarios where ranged DPS comes in very handy, and I'm sure everyone knows that. Take down guys attacking your party that are on high ledges and no one else can reach. Ever been in a party with no ranger, and there's monsters up high that you can do nothing about? Or maybe someone had some sort of ranged weapon, but since they're not specced for that type of attacking, their damage was so low that it took maybe even minutes to take them down. If you had an archer they wouldn't have been a problem. Another thing archers can do is stand somewhere where the enemies can't get you and fire away. Take down a whole group without even having to encounter them. I'm sure you could think of scenarios where it's awesome to have ranged DPS as well.

It's true that ranged offers some utility for certain situations, but most of combat is still close quarters in DDO.

My Point: Though ranged DPS may not be quite as high as melee, it can still be high and has plenty of perks and benefits that melee do not. It was always a no-brainer to me, it's not as high in dps because you gain range. If you noticed that I didn't mention anything about arcane DPS it's because there's no argument that wizards and sorcerers have the highest DPS. But still nothing can match the range of a bow. Even if melee builds do have more potential for general on-ground DPS, I'm still going to use my bow on my ranger because I'm specialized in it and my build does more damage with a bow than with melee weapons. And I'm specialized in range for the perks stated above.

Your bow helps you in explorer areas, but I usually just sprint past those anyways. Certain spots also favor/require ranged, like getting Lailat in DQ2 off the wall. You also have amazing trash DPS if you can collect up a bunch of aggro from melee toons and manyshot + improved precise shot them all down. All in all, ranged are not 'gimp', but it isn't particularly strong where it counts: raid bosses.

But keep in mind that your single target DPS will always be much lower than a melee toon, and so when DPS truly matters, like beating down Horoth or finishing off an enraged Lailat, you'll be a liability in comparison to other toons.

So this might have been kind of a rant, but I really do not like seeing so many people bashing bow-users and ranged DPS. I hear people says it sucks and bow-users are gimped or whatever and no one defends it. Well there, I just did.

Your problem is that your character gets very little at level 18, and the traditional 'tank-type' melee characters, the barbarians, kensei, paladins, and monk all get huge boosts for their tier 3 prestige.

[Alanim]

I've recently been playing a half-elven fighter/bard/rogue arcane archer/kensai/warchanter. It's given me a lot of useful and interesting experience related to the ranged game. Should have been an elf though. (I overestimated the value of the Ranger dilettante feat. Eventually I had enough fighter levels to get the regular bow strength, so I wan't getting as much benefit from half-elvenness as I originally was.)

So, when you get around to changing how ranged working, will that also be changed? because currently it's pretty useless, since without the real bow strength you're not eligible for prestige enhancements, which gives alot of the bonuses to ranged DPS. It should allow the taking of prestige enhancements or perhaps just re-worked entirely.

[spyderwolf]

Has anyone done a 3 rounder solo?

barb(melee) + fvs(caster) did a 3.25 rounder. previous poster said a ranged toon + fvs could do it faster. i called bs until show otherwise. theres a video of the aforementioned barb + fvs in this thread already showing the 3.25 rounder.

[Gregen]

@ TheDjinnFor

Well thank you for at least looking at my post and responding to different parts of it. Some people just represent an invalid argument without actual points to back it up.

I think "crappy" is exaggerating. That's about as good as it gets in terms of damage before green steel.

The thing is, the entire debate of what is good and what is bad is an entirely opinionated realm. What some feel is good, others feel is bad. And just because X is better than Y doesn't necessarily mean that Y is bad. That has been everyone's argument, I have seen no one make any point other than that ranged DPS is bad because melee is better.

To me, good is if a group can get through a quest without any deaths or too much stress and without taking an especially long time. There comes a point where more DPS just means getting through the quest faster, which is totally superfluous. (yes I'm aware DPS is an essential part and helps people stay alive, but after a point it really doesn't matter). And unfortunately there are so many people with the xp/minute mindset. That saps the fun right out of the game. I don't like playing like that and I don't like playing with people like that. They don't even want to play the game, they just want to hit cap as soon as possible, which baffles me as to why.

[kernal42]

@ TheDjinnFor

Well thank you for at least looking at my post and responding to different parts of it. Some people just represent an invalid argument without actual points to back it up.

I think "crappy" is exaggerating. That's about as good as it gets in terms of damage before green steel.

The thing is, the entire debate of what is good and what is bad is an entirely opinionated realm. What some feel is good, others feel is bad. And just because X is better than Y doesn't necessarily mean that Y is bad. That has been everyone's argument, I have seen no one make any point other than that ranged DPS is bad because melee is better.

To me, good is if a group can get through a quest without any deaths or too much stress and without taking an especially long time. There comes a point where more DPS just means getting through the quest faster, which is totally superfluous. (yes I'm aware DPS is an essential part and helps people stay alive, but after a point it really doesn't matter). And unfortunately there are so many people with the xp/minute mindset. That saps the fun right out of the game. I don't like playing like that and I don't like playing with people like that. They don't even want to play the game, they just want to hit cap as soon as possible, which baffles me as to why.

I somewhat disagree. Good and bad, in general terms, are certainly subjective. When comparing dps, however, dps is not subjective; it is instead relative. If you have half the dps as another character, then your dps is distinctly not good. If a simple playstyle (within the limitations of the build) choice is so severely limiting your dps, then I would (subjectively, of course) call that a bad choice.

Regarding quest completions, I wholly agree that the goal is a smooth completion. In this case, you ask yourself what your character brings to the party. The barbarian brings a pile of hp and good dps; that's about it. A tempest ranger may bring slightly less dps, but a little more flexibility and utility. That's a fine tradeoff. My WF FvS brings poor dps, but also heals the party. I'm happy with that performance.

The typical "ranged only ranger" tends to bring poor dps and a little utility, but not enough to make up for the poor dps. Their primary contribution is dps, and it's not good dps. As a character whose primary contribution is dps, why settle for less? Why refuse to put down the bow when TWF is much better damage (when manyshot/IPS are unavailable)? It is a playstyle choice which reduces your contribution to the party.

In my opinion, if a character wants to be ranged only, you should make sure you're bringing something else to the party also. I've seen effective FvS-based AAs who can range decently, but also keep the party healed. I've seen effective bard AAs who buff, heal, CC, and still range decently. I've seen rangers who range effectively with manyshot, and then swap to TWF to melee while manyshot is off timer, thus maintaining competitive dps.

I have not seen someone who can effectively contribute only dps while never putting down the bow.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Long time ago I owned a car that could go 0-60 mph in 6 seconds. I thought that was great!

But then I read there was this car that could do it in 3 seconds.

Now all my friends tell me my car is gimped.

funny thing is none of them own one of those cars that can go 0-60 in 3 seconds.

A few keep telling me they are going to get one some day....

of course, they've been telling me that for years now.

[Glenalth]

I have not seen someone who can effectively contribute only dps while never putting down the bow.

That single sentence sums it up more than most of the arguing in this thread.

[Missing_Minds]

I've recently been playing a half-elven fighter/bard/rogue arcane archer/kensai/warchanter. It's given me a lot of useful and interesting experience related to the ranged game. Should have been an elf though. (I overestimated the value of the Ranger dilettante feat. Eventually I had enough fighter levels to get the regular bow strength, so I wan't getting as much benefit from half-elvenness as I originally was.)

And yet you think that kensai III/ AA V isn't over powered and tempest III / AA V on an elf or half elf would be?

Seriously, it is time to remove race/class restrictions from PrEs.

Also, now drop the bow, and use a repeater. See how well that works for you.
Oh yeah, stop soloing. It is time you group with a strong full party constantly and see how much use you really are to quests due to the fact most of such are combat related. Do you still feel.... useful?

[MagicalDad]

I've recently been playing a half-elven fighter/bard/rogue arcane archer/kensai/warchanter. It's given me a lot of useful and interesting experience related to the ranged game. Should have been an elf though. (I overestimated the value of the Ranger dilettante feat. Eventually I had enough fighter levels to get the regular bow strength, so I wan't getting as much benefit from half-elvenness as I originally was.)

I've been trying to make a viable Arcane Archer for the last year. My other characters have devolved into cookie cutter stereotypes (DPS barbarian, nuker Savant, healing-focused cleric), but my Drow Ranger/Rogue AA has been my baby. And yet I am constantly frustrated by how inferior ranged combat is (except for casters, of course). My all-range focused AA can only generate decent damage for 20 seconds out every two minutes. The rest of the time I risk my sub-par HP total (planned for ranged play) to wade into battle with dual rapiers and generate DPS significantly above my non-Manyshot longbows.

Why can we not make Manyshot the way it is in the PnP game - like Power Attack. Turn it on/off to generate extra shots at the expense of +attack. Then I can focus on DEX the way I want for my rogue skills and just dump some accuracy for extra dmg output.

When I first heard that ranged combat was getting a boost, I was elated, as I was planning before to TR my (now level 18) AA into an Assassin rogue. So you can image how crushed I was to find out that ranged combat, if anything, got worse! And I don't even know what I am going to tell my wife, whose favorite character is her Mech II X-Bow focused rogue - she might quit playing after this.

[Eladrin]

Oh yeah, stop soloing. It is time you group with a strong full party constantly and see how much use you really are to quests due to the fact most of such are combat related. Do you still feel.... useful?

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

[grodon9999]

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

And that paralyzing ability stops being useful after level 16 content.

How about some ranged weapons with Improved Paralyzation on them? What I loved leveling up my first gimp AA was I was still effective for crowd control with IPS and a paralyzer. But that only works so long.

[Missing_Minds]

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

That is pretty much what I figured.

Most people aren't old school FPS players which is what you near need to be to make IPS really excel.

With a build like that you are ranged dps support. People want to be ranged dps. Also several don't multi class to fulfill so many different roles. Most choose one or two ideas, that is it.

Static groups form different mentalities and teamwork than pugs. On top of that intelligent players normally can find a way to make things work and really excel again. I'm not saying range needs a huge bump in dps. But I am saying it needs help. We have no way to stun, sunder, trip, hamstring....
I mean I've never understood why AA's ended up with a force burst arrow after getting force at the start. A sound burst with stun would have made more sense, and help make the choices better on what to have imbued.
Trick arrows for sunder and hamstring could be useful, esp given how higher level mobs can get to you in a matter of about 2-3 shots, and you've barely scratched their hit points.
I see no more purpose in race blocking class as far as PrEs esp with multi classing as it is.

I just worry (and probalby unfounded) that some people are going to take your post, your build, and go.. "well.. no wonder my character sucks. If not even a developer is going to play ranged to be a dps I guess it isn't possible." Why? they may not want to multiclass, not want to have to get locks/traps, not want to do anything but be a ranged bringer of death.

[maddmatt70]

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

I like IPS quite a bit and hope that when/if you do a range pass you keep it alive in some fashion. Even at the end game you can do alot with IPS and Manyshot especially if you are shortmanning something. It is a great way to take out a set of mobs just gather a bunch, hit manyshot, and shoot away.

[Fetchi]

That is pretty much what I figured.

Most people aren't old school FPS players which is what you near need to be to make IPS really excel.

With a build like that you are ranged dps support. People want to be ranged dps. Also several don't multi class to fulfill so many different roles. Most choose one or two ideas, that is it.

Static groups form different mentalities and teamwork than pugs. On top of that intelligent players normally can find a way to make things work and really excel again. I'm not saying range needs a huge bump in dps. But I am saying it needs help. We have no way to stun, sunder, trip, hamstring....
I mean I've never understood why AA's ended up with a force burst arrow after getting force at the start. A sound burst with stun would have made more sense, and help make the choices better on what to have imbued.
Trick arrows for sunder and hamstring could be useful, esp given how higher level mobs can get to you in a matter of about 2-3 shots, and you've barely scratched their hit points.
I see no more purpose in race blocking class as far as PrEs esp with multi classing as it is.

I just worry (and probalby unfounded) that some people are going to take your post, your build, and go.. "well.. no wonder my character sucks. If not even a developer is going to play ranged to be a dps I guess it isn't possible." Why? they may not want to multiclass, not want to have to get locks/traps, not want to do anything but be a ranged bringer of death.

This is exactly how I feel as well.


@ Eladrin - In your observations while 4 manning:

- Are you taking dungeon scaling into account in determining how affective you are with ranged combat?

- Are you running quests at level or at a higher level than your group?

- What difficulties are you running quests - elite?

- In a full pug group, do you feel like you are still contributing good dps?

- Do you feel archers should fill a dps role, or are you envisioning them as purely support for melee classes?

I'd love to hear your take on the archers role when you get to higher level content.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

I think it is great that a dev is playing a ranged specced toon!

But I encourage you to PUG when you can to get a more accurate feel for what it is like for some of us.


And I also encourage you to experiment with non-ranged specced toons and try to use a ranged weapon sometime.
Cause honestly....those are the guys who need a ranged buff IMO.

[Thrudh]

Soloing? Who said I was soloing?

I usually play in a static group of four. Yes, I still feel quite useful with my character, but I serve several party roles - trap guy, inspire courage guy (when I remember to sing it), as well as dealing damage.

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

Yep, an archer with a paraylzer is a HUGE help in GH and the Desert.... I'll take a ranged character without question during the low and mid levels... We could use a little help at end-game though... especially against single-target raid bosses.

[geoffhanna]

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

IPS + manyshot is unbeatable. Short, but unbeatable. Death to whatever, pretty much no matter how many bad guys there are.

[Kmnh]

Ranged DPS is terrible. Saying otherwise is bad for the very people who like playing rangers.

Think of it this way: a cleric with a superior brilliance clickie, maximize and empower is dealing more DPS with his divine punishment than the ranger is doing with his bow. If there are multiple bad guys around, he can hit implosion or blade barrier, and laugh at the silly melees who thought they were relevant. An the cleric is the weakest offensive spellcaster.

[Aesop]

Improved Precise Shot is an absolutely amazing ability, which very often can go a long way to compensate for my weaker damage than if I was "khopesh dude". (Especially back during the Menechtarun and Gianthold levels, where entire hordes would just stand there paralyzed.) Proc abilities are very good when you've got Manyshot, IPS, and a large group of bad guys.

That to me sounds like a problem.

You have 2 abilities in a style that are, when usable, so great that the base ability has to be so lacking as to "balance" out those good times.

I'd prefer a little better on the Basic style and to weaken those two super abilities than that.

Then some people love it this way...

Aesop

[Glenalth]

Then some people love it this way...

It's my favorite part.


All I want is the speed bonuses to actually work as advertised for bow users.