Ranged DPS isn't bad.

[Pwesiela]

I've recently been playing a half-elven fighter/bard/rogue arcane archer/kensai/warchanter. It's given me a lot of useful and interesting experience related to the ranged game. Should have been an elf though. (I overestimated the value of the Ranger dilettante feat. Eventually I had enough fighter levels to get the regular bow strength, so I wan't getting as much benefit from half-elvenness as I originally was.)

Someone should have read the races section of my guide....

[Ganolyn]

The one thing that bugs me about ranged toons is when I am attacking a bad guy then the archer comes up, plinks him with many shot, then runs around like a chicken with his head cut off while the bad guy chases him. The rest of the people are chasing after said bad guy until the caster goes, "screw this" and instant kills him.

This again? Unless the kiter is actually running away from the group (not in a tight circle), run towards the kiter instead of the kited mob. You will intercept the mob on its way to the kiter and you can then melee it and grab aggro to make it stay put. Why is this concept so hard for people to grasp?

[DragonKiller]

I'll just address this.

1. This is a fantasy setting and in a fantasy setting archers use their bows more often than not.

2. This is not the real world it is a game in which people want to portray characters that they enjoy, so we don't really have to worry quite so much about logistics in terms of which weapons are most valid to be used in which situations. (also an M16 isn't too bad of a close quarters weapon... you've got lots of utility there with the ability to smash the bugger in the face to make room to give him lead poisoning)

3. We must play the game we have but strive for the game we want. More things in this game have changed since Beta than have remained the same... I hope this too will will happen with ranged weapons and in fact all combat styles.




There are 5 combat styles in the game and 3 of them are considered bad or worse. Why not have a game with 5 styles all of whom have strong characteristics that make them valuable throughout the game

Aesop

While I do agree this is a fantasy world (if I could throw a fireball in real life... man would some people be singed). But the closer to real world physics it is, the more fun it is IMHO. If ranged combat was as good as melee in close quarters combat, and of course it's not even on the same playing filed in open areas (gets Monty Python type image in head of throwing a great axe at some baddie...), why would anyone use anything else? If I can kill you before you get close to me, why would I ever try any other way?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see some improvements in ranged combat, because in truth my TWF ranger is but a nats @$$ away in ability from a ranged spec'd ranger. That it shouldn't be. But ranged shouldn't be as powerful full time (or close to it) as melee is.

[Thrudh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeRj6NmZNI


id like to see a ranged toon do that. then ill agree with you and say ranged isnt far less powerful.

A ranged character with a FvS could easily finish Part 4 of the Shroud faster than a barbarian and a FvS...

Part 4 of the Shroud is actually quite kind to ranged characters

Manyshot, then switch to TWF... then Harry goes up, and there's downtime, and manyshot recharges...

A ranged character can get off a lot more manyshots in Part 4 of the Shroud than in other boss fights (VoD is another one that is kind to manyshot)

[kcru]

I'll just address this.

1. This is a fantasy setting and in a fantasy setting archers use their bows more often than not.
,,,
There are 5 combat styles in the game and 3 of them are considered bad or worse. Why not have a game with 5 styles all of whom have strong characteristics that make them valuable throughout the game

Aesop

In PnP, using a bow when someone was in your face was bad UNLESS you had taken the proper feat. I personally think that'd be an excellent tradeoff for upping ranged damage/speed/etc.


If Distance < 5m && JustShotBow
Enemies.Attack(me, 5);
Endif

So, if you're prepared to drop to melee weapons, no need for a feat. If you're intending to run around and/or draw aggro and not switch weapons the feat might be a good idea.


I don't mind ranged having drawbacks, but being strictly inferior is annoying.

[Gulain]

A ranged character with a FvS could easily finish Part 4 of the Shroud faster than a barbarian and a FvS...

Part 4 of the Shroud is actually quite kind to ranged characters

Manyshot, then switch to TWF... then Harry goes up, and there's downtime, and manyshot recharges...

A ranged character can get off a lot more manyshots in Part 4 of the Shroud than in other boss fights (VoD is another one that is kind to manyshot)

That's only because said ranged character switched to melee weapons. It's become such a common practice now that this is considered acceptable but why should someone focused purely on a single aspect of fighting be forced to switch to melee to do higher sustained damage?

This isn't just about rangers... it applies to those elven-aa out there that typically DON'T have the freedom of a full TWF line as well. The truth is, when talking pure ranged damage, you have to resign yourself to 130% of a melee 1/6 of the time and < 50% of the dps of a melee 5/6 of the time.

[barecm]

Ranged combat got better with better bows. Way back when, the only bow for damage was the Silver Bow. Now, with greensteel and more recenlty the Bow of Sinew, you can deal a lot of damage if you are built properly. Bow of Sinew with the right Favored Enemies, you can own most top level content and stay relatively unharmed. It is pretty common (17-20) to score 150 or so base damage and somewhat common (19-20) to score 250+ base number with Bow of Sinew. No feat or manyshot, just damage. Stunned creature or held, I can do upwards of 350+ as the base number damage. Then add in windhowlers, red scale armor and slayer arrows....not to mention improved precise shot... quite a bit of damage from that bow that is pretty easy to get a hold of. Plus, with the +8 seeker, you don't sacrifice damage to put on the arrowhead in lieu of the blood stone. Still my favorite to play. Incredible solo ability and flexibility in general.

[Aesop]

While I do agree this is a fantasy world (if I could throw a fireball in real life... man would some people be singed). But the closer to real world physics it is, the more fun it is IMHO. If ranged combat was as good as melee in close quarters combat, and of course it's not even on the same playing filed in open areas (gets Monty Python type image in head of throwing a great axe at some baddie...), why would anyone use anything else? If I can kill you before you get close to me, why would I ever try any other way?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see some improvements in ranged combat, because in truth my TWF ranger is but a nats @$$ away in ability from a ranged spec'd ranger. That it shouldn't be. But ranged shouldn't be as powerful full time (or close to it) as melee is.

No one is advocating that Ranged = TWF in terms of overall DPS, but right now it doesn't even match S&B DPS which is itself too low, though not by too much.

I'd say for the risk vs reward portion TWF and THF should be top of the tier with S&B close behind them and Ranged and Thrown right behind that. The issue really is that right now S&B is a "little" far behind the top tiers to be truly useful especially in the age of Mass Cures and Healing Amp. Meanwhile, ranged and thrown are not sure they can even see S&B DPS.

Of course this isn't taking into account IPS which when you start tagging 3 targets at the same time your overall dps goes up a lot. Personally I'd probably nerf IPS and maybe even Many Shot a little just so we could have a little more consistent over all and single target DPS... Maybe not let IPS and Many Shot stack or something ... I'm sure people would hate that though ...


I've said it before though... just decrease the time it takes to ready a shot and you are halfway there


Aesop

[Fetchi]

It's insanely tough, there were some things that I wanted that I didn't end up with.

Did you end up wishing that Weapon Focus: Ranged counted toward your Warchanter prereqs like the rest of us?

What did you think about the rate of fire when using your bow?

How did you feel about your damage using your bow compared to melee (particularly at the lower levels 1-5 before manyshot)?

[Postumus]

Why is it no one ever accounts for other effects on bows? Like smiting, banishing or disruption... add those to the AA slaying imbue and recheck values ( I am not a number cruncher). From my personal experience using these at the right time increases my kill speed of mobs. and least we forget paralyzing on a bow can keep multiple mobs at bay especially during manyshot.

My L13 ranger loves her disruption bow in Sands. You can see for miles and hit basically anything you can see.

In quests, however, she kills stuff twice as fast wielding dual disruption melee weapons as she does with her bow. It's not even close.

It's almost 3-4 swings in the amount of time it takes to shoot one arrow.

[Gregen]

More realistically I think ranged damage should be increased rather than sped up.

[spyderwolf]

A ranged character with a FvS could easily finish Part 4 of the Shroud faster than a barbarian and a FvS...

Part 4 of the Shroud is actually quite kind to ranged characters

Manyshot, then switch to TWF... then Harry goes up, and there's downtime, and manyshot recharges...

A ranged character can get off a lot more manyshots in Part 4 of the Shroud than in other boss fights (VoD is another one that is kind to manyshot)

imma call bs until proven otherwise.

because, why in all the time that the shroud has been open has not a single person put a video of any attempt at it? im sure if someone with a pimped out ranged build could pull off a 2-3 rounder solo they woulda put something on the forums somewhere just to shut up naysayers.

on a side note. my video was taken during a duo run just for the hell of it to have as a link in case anyone was stuck in a pug shroud that for some crazy reason took more than 1-2 rounds, so feel free to link it in a crappy pug if your stuck on your cc bard and the group is horrible

[Xyfiel]

imma call bs until proven otherwise.

because, why in all the time that the shroud has been open has not a single person put a video of any attempt at it? im sure if someone with a pimped out ranged build could pull off a 2-3 rounder solo they woulda put something on the forums somewhere just to shut up naysayers.

on a side note. my video was taken during a duo run just for the hell of it to have as a link in case anyone was stuck in a pug shroud that for some crazy reason took more than 1-2 rounds, so feel free to link it in a crappy pug if your stuck on your cc bard and the group is horrible

Has anyone done a 3 rounder solo?

[kernal42]

While I agree that everyone should be carrying a melee weapon and something that can be used at range, I will point out something....


Lets say for a second that you build a character to twf everything you've built upon is related to twf... should you have to put down you two weapons and pick up a great sword to be more effective? Doesn't make much sense, but that is what currently happens in DDO.

This is a bad comparison for the following reason.

Ranger Arcane Archers also have TWF feats! Your build includes them!

If you want to roll an AA that doesn't have TWF, then don't use the ranger class. Make it a barb, or maybe FvS.

-Kernal

PS - Archers in the fantasy setting probably use melee weapons more than medieval archers.

[murf201]

This is a bad comparison for the following reason.

Ranger Arcane Archers also have TWF feats! Your build includes them!

If you want to roll an AA that doesn't have TWF, then don't use the ranger class. Make it a barb, or maybe FvS.

-Kernal

PS - Archers in the fantasy setting probably use melee weapons more than medieval archers.

My 20 pure ranger AA with a sustainable str of 46 , red scale ebloodstone etc,etc still has.horrible dps while in melee

[Thrudh]

My 20 pure ranger AA with a sustainable str of 46 , red scale ebloodstone etc,etc still has horrible dps while in melee

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

(Either that or you're using dual muckbanes)

[murf201]

Right now as it stands a ranger who specs for ranged ain't the best at it , nor is he even comparible to anything when they use there twf . The ranger gets horrible healing capabilities that you really have to invest and tweak to make useful . There melee is lacking far beyond mention , and there ranged even if epicly geared for can be out.matched by a fighter or barb etc , etc .

[murf201]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

(Either that or you're using dual muckbanes)

Regardless of what I'm swinging it doesn't matter . I have a capped caster , barbarian , kensai
. And my AA who I enjoy playing the most . And like I said there twf potential is lackluster behind a fighter barb or anything else that gets enhancments towards it .

[murf201]

Regardless of what I'm swinging it doesn't matter . I have a capped caster , barbarian , kensai
. And my AA who I enjoy playing the most . And like I said there twf potential is lackluster behind a fighter barb or anything else that gets enhancments towards it .

Hold up before someone states " ofcourse they shouldn't be on par with a melee builds melee " I'm not saying it should be but atleast in the same playing field , even with all the gear past lives and everything else I aquired I'm pretty far behind . I could only imagine being a new player with non of that .

[PestWulf]

One thing that needs to be addressed in bows/xbows are the stupid arrow varieties. There are a bazillion different types out there but you get them in such rare and low quantities that they tend to be way too much of a hassle to even care about.

At low level for an hour of play in something like say Tangleroot, on a primarily ranged character I have to stock up about 1500 to 2000 arrows. That's 5 of quivers worth at the ones I can get and with the way quivers work, it's actually detrimental to have more than one. You'll find yourself in the middle of combat on a red named and suddenly out of ammo and having to fiddle with quivers. Whereas if they are all in your inventory, it will just keep reloading untill you are actually out of arrows.

So if you want to make use of things like the Flame Arrow wands or the various arrows you find, it is an absolute NIGHTMARE of arrow management and unless you ignore the quivers and put the arrow stacks directly on your hotbars you can't keep track of how many you're using and when you need to switch. You might suddenly find yourself using all those greater undead bane arrows on a very much alive Rat.

AA arrow imbues are "ok". You can choose to get 2d6 acid 100% of the time or you can choose to get a 1d6(100% of the time) + 2d10 of either Fire or Force (assuming a longbow) 20% of the time (assuming a silver bow, greensteel or sinew and IC:Ranged).

All of these except the Force Burst become useless however when you get slaying arrows. a 5% chance at 500 is far superior.
Slayer (100 shots) 2,500 additional damage
Acid (100 shots) avg. 7dmg, 700 additional damage
X Burst(100 shots) avg 3.5(80) 280 damage + avg 11(20) 220, 500 additional damage

Terror Arrows.......the DC is so pathetic on these, the mob has to pretty much roll a 1 to have a chance of instant death. The fear factor on these has ZERO of the groovie slow component that all the spells have gotten, so they run like a bat out of hell and actually REDUCE your damage because arrows can be avoided by zig zagging or side stepping which is what happens when the mob is effected by fear. you have to manuver so that is running in a straight line away from you to have a chance at sustaining damage on it. Horrible, Horrible enchant.

So basically, the entire enhancement points spent are all nullified with Slayer Arrows, the only exception being if you need force burst to hit an incorporeal or not.

In my opinion, they need to make Slayer a permanent thing and then allow an imbue. They should also change the imbues so that Force is Force Burst and Flame is Flaming Burst and just get rid of the 1d6 versions. And add in some utility enchants, like Stunning (the 3% chance that blunt items get) or some type of non-DC oriented slow or any number of useful utility abilities. The Arcane Archer line is just way too overfocused on competing damage enchants. It's not like you can afford to switch between them on the fly readily for most archer characters.

I think having +5 returning, Force Burst, Slaying arrows to put in your bow of sinew,GS or Silver would be a nice damage upgrade while not making every AA feel like they wasted a **** load of action points to use slayer arrows. I would also LOVE to have some utility in the enchants to allow better use of one of the three damage dealing bows in the game.

EDIT: And for heavens sake, just kill any idea that has to do with a DC unless you are going to allow the archer some method of improving it.