Ranged DPS isn't bad.

[Gregen]

I've heard a lot of people say ranged DPS is bad, I never understood that. I have a +5 Shocking Burst Longbow of Pure Good, Wind Howler Bracers, The Blood Stone, Arcane Archer Arrow Imbues, Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot and Bow Strength helps a little, too. Not to mention Elven Ranged Damage Enhancements and Favored Enemies. Plus Attack Bonus is very high, I rarely miss unless I roll a 1. I can gun down enemies as fast as any melee, sometimes faster. Ranged attacking also has added benefits which I'll get to later.

Now there are several reasons here why Ranged DPS is good aside from just numbers dealt to a single enemy.

First, let's start with just the numbers. These numbers are for a level 14 Ranger. UNBUFFED physical damage can average around 20. Okay, nothing awe-inspiring, but lets continue adding everything else that partakes. In a party (with buffs) I've gotten critical hits over 120, that's JUST physical damage. So about 10% of all hits deal at least 70 physical damage. Now let's look at magical damage.

Shocking Burst Longbow of Pure Good= 1d6 Good damage, 1d6 Shock damage, with additional 2d10 Shock on critical hits.

Wind Howler Bracers= +1 damage and 10d6 Sonic damage on a critical roll 20. That's 10 - 60 Sonic damage and I've seen it go well above 70. I've seen all the magical damages go higher than what they indicate. I'm honestly not sure how these numbers are going higher than they "should", but they do.

The Blood Stone= +18 damage on every critical hit. (Seeker +6 before multiplier, which is x3 on longbows)

Arrow Imbue: Acid= +1d6 +2d4 Acid damage on every hit, as well as 2d4 acid damage every 2 seconds if you stop attacking the enemy. I chose Acid Imbue for this post because they have a higher average rate than the others, until Slaying Imbue.

Summary:
avg. 20 Pierce Damage/70 - 120 on critical (10%).
1 - 6 Shock Damage/2 - 20 on critical (10%).
1 - 6 Good Damage
3 - 14 Acid Damage
10 - 60 Sonic Damage on roll 20 (5%)

That's a total of 25 - 46 for 85% of hits (the other 5% being misses and 10% being criticals). Okay, not amazing (but not that bad really) for a level 14, but an archer's prowess is in critical hits, which will raise the average hit considerably. Keep in mind, all these values are higher in game.

A roll of 19 will deal a total of 77 - 166 damage.
And a roll of 20 will deal a total of 87 - 226 damage.
Again these values are higher when fighting in game.
With these numbers and a little bit of basic algebra, the average of each hit is ~46 total damage. In the actual game that could be over 50 or 60. (I still don't know why the numbers are higher, but all damage rolls are higher than what is indicated. I see them constantly and have tested it.)

Okay, so that's pretty good, right? So I've heard some melee classes say they hit for over 100 with each it (I don't even see how that's possible, perhaps someone could enlighten me), assuming that's true, and even though melee attack speed is a little faster than ranged, I'm still not done.

With Manyshot (at level 14) the damage triples for 20 seconds. That's 138 total average for each hit with Manyshot. At level 16 the value quadruples. Lest not forget Improved Precise Shot, shall we? Without Manyshot and with Improved Precise Shot, you could say the damage multiplies with each enemy you're hitting, because now you're doing group damage. With Manyshot and IPC together, your damage f***tuples. If you play smart and use Manyshot where it counts, you can easily hose down a beefy group all by yourself in a matter of seconds.
I didn't even mention arrow types (anarchic, frost, ect.), which would also raise the damage. And Slaying Arrows at level 18 deal 500 additional damage to living targets on a roll of 20. That's quite a bit.

Now enough on numbers, let's depict the phrase "damage per second." Consider the amount of time it could take for a melee to run up to an enemy. A few seconds? More? A skilled archer can start attacking right away and kill them before the enemy even reaches them. In a way, you lose DPS just by trying to reach said enemy. I know it's not always practical in a party to range attack things too far away, thus grabbing too much aggro for you and your group, but it works often times.
Ranged attackers have a perk that melee do not... range. There are scenarios where ranged DPS comes in very handy, and I'm sure everyone knows that. Take down guys attacking your party that are on high ledges and no one else can reach. Ever been in a party with no ranger, and there's monsters up high that you can do nothing about? Or maybe someone had some sort of ranged weapon, but since they're not specced for that type of attacking, their damage was so low that it took maybe even minutes to take them down. If you had an archer they wouldn't have been a problem. Another thing archers can do is stand somewhere where the enemies can't get you and fire away. Take down a whole group without even having to encounter them. I'm sure you could think of scenarios where it's awesome to have ranged DPS as well.

My Point: Though ranged DPS may not be quite as high as melee, it can still be high and has plenty of perks and benefits that melee do not. It was always a no-brainer to me, it's not as high in dps because you gain range. If you noticed that I didn't mention anything about arcane DPS it's because there's no argument that wizards and sorcerers have the highest DPS. But still nothing can match the range of a bow. Even if melee builds do have more potential for general on-ground DPS, I'm still going to use my bow on my ranger because I'm specialized in it and my build does more damage with a bow than with melee weapons. And I'm specialized in range for the perks stated above.

So this might have been kindof a rant, but I really do not like seeing so many people bashing bow-users and ranged DPS. I hear people says it sucks and bow-users are gimped or whatever and no one defends it. Well there, I just did. No one has said these things to me personally, but I still don't like to hear it. (For the record my ranger is specced to be an archer, but I DO go into melee when it makes sense. I'm not going to shoot something directly in front of me while it attacks. I tumble back and switch to dual swords the moment an enemy gets close to me.)

Anyone agree with me?

[Kalanth]

Maybe I am a dinosaur on this one, but I have always found that ranged DPS is better when solo and that in a group you just seem to be more of a secondary, or assist character. I have one pure ranged character as it is and he does not do a heck of a lot of damage and so I carry around WP or WE bows as a result.

[NaturalHazard]

get higher than level 14 get to level 17+ and go to amarath, where things get a ton of hit points, you will see the difference with how long it takes to pew pew things down with manshot off, add in the fact that the mobs teleport all over the place and you will find that its harder to set up your improve precise shot.

I used my bow a lot more on my ranger in level 14 and lower content, once I got higher I tended to use it less and less, till now I only really use it when manyshot is off timmer or situationally like in DQ2 when all you can do is range her. No my rangers not an AA.

also arcane and divine casters can put out *ranged* dps as well.

[Crann]

Anyone agree with me?

I don't think most of the experienced builders would disagree with you. The highest non arcane burst DPS that can be done to multiple mobs is by an AA using Imp. Precise shot on multiple targets, especially from a build like the Helves Angel.

I think where the AA's fall behind significantly is against single targets....which happen to be when DPS matters the most.

[NaturalHazard]

I don't think most of the experienced builders would disagree with you. The highest non arcane burst DPS that can be done to multiple mobs is by an AA using Imp. Precise shot on multiple targets, especially from a build like the Helves Angel.

I think where the AA's fall behind significantly is against single targets....which happen to be when DPS matters the most.

against single targets its not so bad when they back up their awesome burst damage with solid melee damage as well, which a lot of these builds can do.

[sweez]

Okay, so that's pretty good, right? So I've heard some melee classes say they hit for over 100 with each it (I don't even see how that's possible, perhaps someone could enlighten me), assuming that's true, and even though melee attack speed is a little faster than ranged, I'm still not done.

From what I remember from someone's calcs, melee attack speed isn't a little faster, it's basically twice as fast.

[NaturalHazard]

From what I remember from someone's calcs, melee attack speed isn't a little faster, it's basically twice as fast.

and thats just basic 2handed fighting or sword and board right? 2wf, and monk 2wf is even faster right?

[Pwesiela]

Ranged DPS is about half that of your average melee DPS.

It may not be that bad, but it certainly isn't good.

BTW, it's pretty easy to hit for 80-100+ per hit with a geared melee.

[count_spicoli]

I agree gregen. No worries I take first 6 in my lfm and lets roll.

[k1ngp1n]

Anyone agree with me?

Not particularly.

When Manyshot is running, and you have mobs lined up nicely with IPS, its excellent.

When it isn't, it sucks. And it won't be set up nicely more than it is. Pretty soon you'll get slaying arrows and say, 'SEE! Archers do good damage!' Nope, not even with Slaying Arrows. Its unfortunate, but its the name of the game currently.

[Gregen]

Not particularly.

When Manyshot is running, and you have mobs lined up nicely with IPS, its excellent.

When it isn't, it sucks. And it won't be set up nicely more than it is. Pretty soon you'll get slaying arrows and say, 'SEE! Archers do good damage!' Nope, not even with Slaying Arrows. Its unfortunate, but its the name of the game currently.

Could you elaborate, please? I've been playing my ranger and I can see the results. Even when I'm not using Manyshot it's boom boom boom down. They die quickly, so I don't understand where you're coming from.

[k1ngp1n]

Could you elaborate, please? I've been playing my ranger and I can see the results. Even when I'm not using Manyshot it's boom boom boom down. They die quickly, so I don't understand where you're coming from.

At level 14. Get to 20. If you just want to talk lower levels, then sure. Go to Amrath. My cleric was two shotting things with a Falchion in GH, its not particularly impressive to say 'I kill things fast in GH' or around that level.

[Gregen]

At level 14. Get to 20. If you just want to talk lower levels, then sure. Go to Amrath.

Alright, I'll get to 20 and maybe I'll see what you're talking about. I think the big difference between me and most players in DDO is that I don't particularly value end game. I enjoy fresh beginnings and the journey, everything that leads up to the end. When I hit level cap on a toon I become sad. Then I can't wait to get my gear together and start all over again.

[OLDTIMEDD]

Why is it no one ever accounts for other effects on bows? Like smiting, banishing or disruption... add those to the AA slaying imbue and recheck values ( I am not a number cruncher). From my personal experience using these at the right time increases my kill speed of mobs. and least we forget paralyzing on a bow can keep multiple mobs at bay especially during manyshot.

[Gregen]

Why is it no one ever accounts for other effects on bows? Like smiting, banishing or disruption... add those to the AA slaying imbue and recheck values ( I am not a number cruncher). From my personal experience using these at the right time increases my kill speed of mobs. and least we forget paralyzing on a bow can keep multiple mobs at bay especially during manyshot.

You know, I'll have to check those out. I always forget about effects like those and just go for the raw damage.

[k1ngp1n]

Alright, I'll get to 20 and maybe I'll see what you're talking about. I think the big difference between me and most players in DDO is that I don't particularly value end game. I enjoy fresh beginnings and the journey, everything that leads up to the end. When I hit level cap on a toon I become sad. Then I can't wait to get my gear together and start all over again.

And thats a fair (and fun) way to play the game, and in that style, AA is enjoyable and effective. The problem with AA dps arises when melees starting packing on the damage adds, and the AA rate of fire just can't keep up, and they fall further and further behind with every + to damage.

[k1ngp1n]

Why is it no one ever accounts for other effects on bows? Like smiting, banishing or disruption.. (these are also available to melee, and the higher rate of attack of a melee gives the weight to them)


and least we forget paralyzing on a bow can keep multiple mobs at bay especially during manyshot. Paralyzing is also available to melees. In addition, it stops working well post Vale / Level 16ish.

In red.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes...but....

What pro-ranged DPS number crunchers seem to forget is that if you are using a +5 uber blast bow of uberness with a trinket of uber and bracers of uber....etc. etc. etc.

Yes....you will do some greeat damage.

But the melee guy with the + 5 uber blast Kopesh of uberness (or two) with a trinket of uber and bracers of uber....etc. etc. etc.......

will be getting a whole lot more attack rolls in, in the same time you are slowly plinking away........ and the melee guy will do more DPS.

(assuming a stationary single target who's counter-attacks are not an issue)

But of course...ranged combat has other advantages (and special arrows are something melee cannot make up for)

and as soon as you try to figure in non-stationary targets. multiple targets, and powerful damaging counterattacks.....ranged looks a whole lot more appealing.
(I would add not being able to see what you are meleeing through a Demon's behind too. )

The real truth is that a Ranger is a powerful class that has melee and ranged options. And can be built to be powerful at both. And can use whichever one is best for him (and his playstyle preferences) at the time, based on the situation.

Edit: I should also add that another truth is that max DPS is not needed. And most fights don't even need your best DPS no matter what style/gear/build etc... Therefore it doesn't make a dang bit of difference if the guy in the back with a bow is doing less DPS than the guy in the front with the Kopesh. (usually)
(and any argument of "if the guy with the bow would melee instead, things would die faster and we would use less healing resources." can be countered with "and if the guy with the Kopesh would pull out a ranged weapon, things would die more slowly, but we would use almost zero healing resources!")

Edit Edit: but to be totally fair it really depends on the situation. For example if a main tank is holding agro of a raid boss, I see little reason to be pecking him in the back with a bow vice wailing on him with a pair of swords. (if the main tank is not doing a good job of holding agro and keeping the boss facing in a single predictable direction it changes things though)

[Crann]

You know, I'll have to check those out. I always forget about effects like those and just go for the raw damage.

You are also going to want to check out Smiters, Banishers, and Disruptors. They don't just work on crits anymore, they are like Superior Bane weapons. Arguably worse off for high crit range weapons like Rapiers and Falchions, but not so bad for Bows.

[Abilbo]

Anytime you want to compare your ranged DPS to Melee DPS, have a same level, equally geared (if your using GS, they use GS, otherwise similar style weapons) Melee class take on the Training Dummy, and you will see how quickly your thoughts of similar DPS vanish.

The one thing that many people forget when considering DPS, is that most of the games DPS is based on a DIE roll. If your weapon can do 1D10 and you roll 1's your DPS is low, if you roll 10's its high. For constant sustained DPS, which is what most people are talking about, Melee > Ranged, under the current system.

Does this mean that Ill turn my AA in and roll a 2HW Barb? No, I like the ranged class, always have, always will. In every game that I have played, its the style that I like the most, If you are only thinking about the highest potential damage you can bring to a fight, then roll a melee class, its as simple as that.

I have yet to play a MMO where the ranged class DPS was equal to the melee class, but that doesn't mean they are not fun to play, and doesn't mean they don't have their uses. The best way to play a ranged class is to find the most effective way to assist the party, and not worry about how your DPS is less than theirs.