When could people understand arcanes?

[Isharah]

Note: DQ is an exceptional case--- it is immune to electricity so half of the arcane double dots DPS is gone. In this case I see the point of minimizing the arcane DPS slots. Well, strangely, I usually see there are more arcane DPS slots than other raids just because they need arcanes to fight the demon queen off to the main platform raging. Funny.

The dots are helpful but kinda overrated IMO. Even an arcane without dots can do roughly 2x the dps of an equally-geared melee and sustain it for the duration of a boss fight. From my experience, the reason arcane slots are limited in eDQ is not because of the damage loss but because the server is teeming with 300-hp sorcs that want to take a shot at it, and people are trying to be prudent about not losing too many people while doing the raid.

You can even run an all water savant Shroud. When you do let us know how it turned out. I predict failure in part 4.

(Well, actually I predict a lot of WF with some detailed off to play cleric. But, if they are all really full blown water savants and all only blasting away at Harry, then I predict failure in part 4.)

Actually, it is more likely that failure would be in P1 where half the party will fall asleep waiting for the portals to go down. All the other parts will probably be caek. Doubt Harry will last longer than 30 secs in P4.

Harry, HoX and some others do take a while to beat and a good arcane will stack DoTs on them probably several times over (I know that I certainly do with my Wizard) just to add that extra damage output to what the melees are doing.

Are you sure about this? IIRC elemental spells don't work on Xyzzy.

Cheers.

[Teharahma]

It's like seeing Water Savants use nothing but cold spells. Not knowing they have another DoT, which will probably increase your DPS by 20-30%..

[Madryoch]

It's like seeing Water Savants use nothing but cold spells. Not knowing they have another DoT, which will probably increase your DPS by 20-30%..

Regarding this post of mine i misunderstood the reply so i take my words back. I thought it was a reply to the post above ...

And yes while they offer significant dps contribution and they are good it is still a bit funny to see casters say that now that we got dots we are l33t...

If a caster doesn't use both dots i think they are not playing effectively... And i really doubt many people rely on just one element ... after all there are mobs with immunities so...

[Rodasch]

Are you sure about this? IIRC elemental spells don't work on Xyzzy.

Cheers.

Yes and no.

First part, elemental spells do not hurt her (not enough to matter).

Once puppies get her "vulnerable" elemental spells hurt her just fine.

[orbbital]

thanx for clearing that out for us captain obvious. I can't say i understand what caused this piece of pure wisdom escape ur keyboard and enlighten us ...So would u please share the information with us ? I mean to what are u saying that?

/sarcasm off

yes several people as an arcane user, like mentioned before, pale master using negative spells only, water savants using cold spells only, and even radiant servants using healing spells only, not realizing even without enhancement damaging lines, their dots are still powerful.
I'm not sure if it is a 20 or 30%, but if you really used it, then on your screen, you will find, at least, it is a very significant increase.

[Madryoch]

Yes and no.

First part, elemental spells do not hurt her (not enough to matter).

Once puppies get her "vulnerable" elemental spells hurt her just fine.

My guess would be... that Isharah meant while the invulnerability of Xyzzy is still in effect... Now if the one speaking of dots on Xyzzy meant after the boss is at 33% hp then i don't think u have time to stack 3 dots of each kind on her to see how significant that damage might be...Unless every other dps-er is slacking or hit her with ... toothpicks.Unless u keep 3 dots stacked on her even when she takes no damage so when she starts taking damage it will already be at 3 stacks but that's a waste of SP if u ask me.

Also last time i checked first part elemental spells don't hurt her AT ALL...In fact no damage other than puppy damage hurts her at all and perhaps guard effects like bramblecasters one ,unless that rumour bout bezekiras is true, else u wouldn't have to wait for the puppies to deal their damage u d take 524535234525 casters with such spells and deal extra damage on her so she goes down faster.

On top of that excuse me but i still think it is obvious that u should use both dots on the targets since their damage is significant ... What is wrong with people stating out the obvious i don't understand...

Isharah's point was clear as well ... no melee can hope to match just my 3 spell rotation (ignoring the dots on mobs) polar ray(1150-1200) freezing sphere(1050ish) and Cone of cold (950ish) every 3 seconds...and these are not average numbers of my spells . These are average NON crit values.Well if they do i don't know i need to meet them...

[xtchizobr]

totally agree
We have alot of bad casters on server who at level 20 have just over 100hp so they make every other catser look bad. they run outa sp they dont drink pots they just really are a burden.

However there are good casters with 300+ hp and 100% fort and never run out of sp and if they should run out they will drink a pot to keep dps going.

I see so many casters run out of sp and then never drink pots and they pike the rest of the raid. Melee never run out of DPS casters do.

so because of bad casters thats why alot of raid leads only want 2 casters max in their raids.

i think this is a good time to point out, to all those tards who want to whine about how overpowered Arcanes are, that the SP bar is still a limit and a harsh one.

when swordarms get their stamina bar, then and only then can you ask me to drink a Mnemo potion. and until then, you really should shut your face or (and here's the thing none of the piking warrior-types have ever considered) pay for the cost of the outrageously expensive potions that you want me to chug like mother's milk.

[Madryoch]

First of all, I'm amazed that arcanes can top 500 hp. Back in my PnP days, a 20th level Magic User might- might- have 150. And yes that was buffed to the nth degree.

Come to think on it, a 20th level Fighter in PnP might have only 300 hit points....

Anyway, the only response I can think of is that, if you can top 500hp buffed, then a melee class with equally good equipment could probably top, what, 800? Toss in the almost certainty that their AC is going to be higher than an arcanes and, using your own criteria, they would be better equipped to "tank". That is not to say that you'd be bad at it- that is clearly not the case- only that they'd be even better.

Back in pnp one spell could kill a boss like harry ... if prepared specifically for it ... I will never get to 800 hp on my caster but i won't loose aggro ever either if i go all out and believe me i can do that. 537 hp is more than enough normal content and no matter what u say most tanks do not rely on AC at all cause unless it is very high it is useless kinda.Yet the ones who get that high ac don't have as many hit points as u claim they do due to specific class splashes required for the high ac.

Tank in my opinion was the old way board and sword intimidate tanks who couldn't deal damage at all but could keep aggro on them indefinitely using intimidate something like taunt in other games. We are speaking about an MMO game.

The better equipped part is not true cause unless i hold back and i mean for long and spend points in subtle spellcasting Nothing can hold aggro off me ... I didn't try beign tank for no reason ... I was just tanking anyway without trying so i had to .

[Emili]

You all do realize ... Harry part four/five has variable agro. It's switches on a dime because is flushed every few seconds. Sulu being a teleporting horny fella like to spread wings and share himself all over the place every so often... is why the poor bloody chained take need chase him down again. Lailat as attentive has Dee Dee - Dexter's sister...

We're left with ToD and a few out of the way quests... where agro is actually very controlable.

That said... every arcane/divine have the tools to pull off anything a melee may do and then some. Because some arcane stick out as incompetent may reflect upon them all has no bearing anyway... a bad player is a bad player is all there is to it. Stating that some melee can get away with being incompetent is poppycock ... it only shows how unimportant that position is within the group. Bringing such up in the arguement also shows your lack of knowledge of the game environment as a whole....

The fact that one may bring but one or two arcane/divine into group is nothing more than reflectance that one or two decent arcane are all which are needed (that is how powerful mana is in this game)... that is all there is to it.

Now go out and teach those bloody noob players to play better and stop complaining bout groups who have no clue and are filling up by some traditional standard.

Yes, I get tired of seeing some bloody standards too... but you all have some bloody double standards yourself just in stating take more arcane/divine. Lately am surrounded by eejits!

After I fill the first two, three or possibly four raid spots outside myself and them every other position is "redundant."

So I'm bloody telling you... if you do not like it that someone declined you or what not. Stop complaining and go solo it or get off your bloody arse and make your own group! That's what I do.

[LordMond63]

Back in pnp one spell could kill a boss like harry ... if prepared specifically for it ...

Possible, but extraordinarily improbable.

Unless your DM used a spell point system, chances are pretty good that your 20th level Magic User would have, at most, 5 9th level spells. If the DM is not a complete idiot, you're going to have to wade through multiple 'pawns' before you get to the 'king' and you're going to have to be very selective as to where and when you cast your highest level spells. Once you get to the 'king', you have to factor in things like initiative rolls, spell resistance and other things so, while I agree that you are correct in saying that it "could" happen, wouldn't you agree that things would have to fall into place pretty much perfectly in order for it to work out that way?

I will never get to 800 hp on my caster but i won't loose aggro ever either if i go all out and believe me i can do that. 537 hp is more than enough normal content and no matter what u say most tanks do not rely on AC at all cause unless it is very high it is useless kinda.Yet the ones who get that high ac don't have as many hit points as u claim they do due to specific class splashes required for the high ac.

Agreed totally on the AC. But you did mention it as one of the criteria you use to identify "tanking", which is why I mentioned it.

Tank in my opinion was the old way board and sword intimidate tanks who couldn't deal damage at all but could keep aggro on them indefinitely using intimidate something like taunt in other games. We are speaking about an MMO game.

OK...but that is only one of several possible definitions. It's not that I am disagreeing with you here, I just need to know what you expect from someone claiming to be a "tank" or capable of "tanking".

The better equipped part is not true cause unless i hold back and i mean for long and spend points in subtle spellcasting Nothing can hold aggro off me ... I didn't try beign tank for no reason ... I was just tanking anyway without trying so i had to .

Keeping aggro is one of the criteria, to be sure.

However, I can- and do- the same thing in Shroud with my Wizard, who has far less hitpoints and far poorer equipment than you do, but I have no desire to "tank" Harry nor do I have the capability of doing so for more than, oh, fifteen seconds. But it is hardly unusual for me to get a crit with one of my spells and pull aggro from any number of melee-types. What you do by design, I do by accident- though you are capabile of surviving the 'accident' and I am not.

[Isharah]

Yes and no.

First part, elemental spells do not hurt her (not enough to matter).

Once puppies get her "vulnerable" elemental spells hurt her just fine.

Will confirm this later. Last time I ran HoX I remember cringing at the "Immune"s popping out of her head while the melees were beating on her... Then again I might be getting old like everyone else here.

[Rodasch]

Will confirm this later. Last time I ran HoX I remember cringing at the "Immune"s popping out of her head while the melees were beating on her... Then again I might be getting old like everyone else here.

When they changed golems, Xyzzy got changed as well.

You can damage her with elemental spells, either that or I was bugged on every run I did.

[Corwinsky]

Here is the solution to the problem for all the arcanes who feel they are getting the short end of the stick -- stop piggy-backing on other people's groups and start your own. Then you can fill it with however many fellow arcanes you want.

Funny I actually see a lot of pug groups started by arcanes where they are the ones restricting their raids to 2 arcanes only if not just themselves.
But maybe in a lot of cases that has something to do with the end loot as well... (less people rolling on items they're intested in in HoX/VoD/ToD).. although I see the same sometimes for Shroud runs

[Isharah]

When they changed golems, Xyzzy got changed as well.

You can damage her with elemental spells, either that or I was bugged on every run I did.

Either you or I are bugged on every run we do because I tried fire and she's still immune. o_O

[Taters214]

totally agree
We have alot of bad casters on server who at level 20 have just over 100hp so they make every other catser look bad. they run outa sp they dont drink pots they just really are a burden.

However there are good casters with 300+ hp and 100% fort and never run out of sp and if they should run out they will drink a pot to keep dps going.

I see so many casters run out of sp and then never drink pots and they pike the rest of the raid. Melee never run out of DPS casters do.

so because of bad casters thats why alot of raid leads only want 2 casters max in their raids.

It isn't the "good" casters that drink pots when they are out of sp, it's the rich ones who do so. (Or the ones that don't manage sp resources very well, but that's a different topic.) And why should a "good" caster just be expected to chug a pot when he's out of sp? Do you know how much they cost, by chance, on the ah? Not cheap. And the healer is expected to do the same at his own expense, I suppose? Well, if the arcanes or healers were partnered up with "good" melees, they shouldn't need to chug pots because they either wouldn't need to because the melees are contributing enough dps to kill things faster so they don't have to nuke as much, or because things die fast enough that the melee's don't take as much damage so the healer doesn't need to heal as much. And "good" melees would also contribute a pot to the arcane or divine when they are out of sp if they really want nukes or heals to keep coming -- it is a ridiculous assumption/request that arcanes and divines should foot this bill on their own. And finally, a melee dps is only infinite as long as his hitpoints hold out - without that divine throwing heals his way, his dps could come to a sudden end with his death.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Are you saying we should all just dump melee builds and be better off with a server population that is 100% caster?

[orbbital]

Are you saying we should all just dump melee builds and be better off with a server population that is 100% caster?

i am not trying to challenge the existence of either melee tank build or melee dps build. they are both worth to have. but my point is, we should look melee dps and arcane dps as the same in filling "dps" slots in the party. we still need melee tank with super high hp in elite tod.

things on arcane casters tanking is just another topic. yes they can occasionally do some, but they are never the best tanks.

[Kmnh]

I have seen more terrible barbs than terrible wizards lately. I've seen a barb lose boss aggro to a battlecleric's divine punishment - and the cleric was not meleeing.


It's easy to check for good arcanes: If they have more than 450 hp, they are likely to be good. If they have less than 350, only accept them if you can tolerate a piker. Coming u11, you won't even need to use MyDDO for that.

A WF wizard with 550 hp and a decent shield can tank any boss in the game, except horoth.

[jwdaniels]

Good casters don't need pots.

Group leaders that don't take arcanes when looking for DPS tend to be following some sort of bizarre "perfect group" formula that is often outdated and as a result usually don't lead groups that succeed.

[Rapthorn]

Back in pnp one spell could kill a boss like harry ... if prepared specifically for it ... I will never get to 800 hp on my caster but i won't loose aggro ever either if i go all out and believe me i can do that. 537 hp is more than enough normal content and no matter what u say most tanks do not rely on AC at all cause unless it is very high it is useless kinda.Yet the ones who get that high ac don't have as many hit points as u claim they do due to specific class splashes required for the high ac.

Tank in my opinion was the old way board and sword intimidate tanks who couldn't deal damage at all but could keep aggro on them indefinitely using intimidate something like taunt in other games. We are speaking about an MMO game.

The better equipped part is not true cause unless i hold back and i mean for long and spend points in subtle spellcasting Nothing can hold aggro off me ... I didn't try beign tank for no reason ... I was just tanking anyway without trying so i had to .

You're my new hero. I wish I could be half as good as you.

/sarcasm off