Rogue level for traps and doors?

[Qaliya]

Hi there,

Very new player, created a cleric because I like clerics. For various reasons I like to mostly play solo. What I have read recently though suggests that if I don't have a rogue's trapfinding and door-opening abilities I will get stuck in many dungeons.

Is this true? If so, should I take a level in rogue (I'm only level 1 now). Will that be enough to help me through many dungeons during my "career" or would I have to keep taking rogue levels?

Your advice appreciated.

Thanks.

[thwart]

Hi there,

Very new player, created a cleric because I like clerics. For various reasons I like to mostly play solo. What I have read recently though suggests that if I don't have a rogue's trapfinding and door-opening abilities I will get stuck in many dungeons.

Is this true? If so, should I take a level in rogue (I'm only level 1 now). Will that be enough to help me through many dungeons during my "career" or would I have to keep taking rogue levels?

Your advice appreciated.

Thanks.

I solo most of the time. I find that I do not need rogue levels to solo. I need to be prepared to deal with damage when I run through a trap or five. And, I have to appreciate that I won't be able to open an occasional chest or locked door.

[MrLarone]

NO.

just to get it out of the way.

1. being new it's recommended you ignore multiclassing till you've either played to 20 or at least rolled several toons; just so you have a fair idea of the abilites and synagies of each class.

2. if ever you do end up splashing (taking a level or two) rogue you'd ideally want to do so first lvl as you'd get more skill points (read better skilled at trapsmithing)

3. cleric isn't a natural partner for rogue (imo) and i'd imagine (read hope) you've not invested in Intelligence. Int being the main stat used for searching for and disabling traps. while many rogues can dump int (not invest in it) they would be very dependant on finding/buying the best gear they can. as a new player you probably won't be able to do that (as well as get the gear you need to be an affective cleric)


DON@T PANIC

as the good book says.

traps are only really leathal in elite difficulties. sure they can hurt but you're a cleric! heal thy self and move on.

also as you'll probably have a high Wisdom you spot skill should be fairly good (also there's a spell to detech traps if you really want) so you'll have warning (see the top middle of you're screen for trap notifications) and can makes sure you're healed up before attempting to pass through.

[Qaliya]

Thanks for the quick replies!

This character is very new (though I am very experienced in PnP D&D) and I may not be the sort to want to play through the same content multiple times ... thus my interest in "optimizing" off the bat.

Would I be better off playing through as a favored soul instead? I think that gets unlocked when you sign up for membership, which I just did.

[licho]

Hi there,

Very new player, created a cleric because I like clerics. For various reasons I like to mostly play solo. What I have read recently though suggests that if I don't have a rogue's trapfinding and door-opening abilities I will get stuck in many dungeons.

Is this true? If so, should I take a level in rogue (I'm only level 1 now). Will that be enough to help me through many dungeons during my "career" or would I have to keep taking rogue levels?

Your advice appreciated.

Thanks.

No. If you are cleric stay pure.

For secret doors you can use detect secret doors clikie.

Most locked rooms leads to optionals, so u can complete dungeon without.

Most traps can be jumped, or resist agains at normal and hard. As cleric you has resist and protecion of energy spells which can help with all elemental traps.

Even if you splash rogue you will have hard times to keep rogue skills up to level. (so it will be useless).

[JDCrowell]

Thanks for the quick replies!

This character is very new (though I am very experienced in PnP D&D) and I may not be the sort to want to play through the same content multiple times ... thus my interest in "optimizing" off the bat.

Would I be better off playing through as a favored soul instead? I think that gets unlocked when you sign up for membership, which I just did.

Unfortunately, Favored Souls are not unlocked with a VIP membership. They can only be purchased from the DDO store, or unlocked with 2500 favor.

That said, I honestly advise against playing a FvS unless you've capped a toon.

And like everyone else has stated, stay pure and don't worry about traps.

[Ancient]

Hi there,

Very new player, created a cleric because I like clerics. For various reasons I like to mostly play solo. What I have read recently though suggests that if I don't have a rogue's trapfinding and door-opening abilities I will get stuck in many dungeons.

Is this true? If so, should I take a level in rogue (I'm only level 1 now). Will that be enough to help me through many dungeons during my "career" or would I have to keep taking rogue levels?

Your advice appreciated.

Thanks.

My dex based cleric 17/monk 2/rogue 1 has been a blast to play. It was my first toon to reach 20, and I still enjoy playing it. Here is tons of information on how to do it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292100

[Therigar]

I am going to disagree with some of what has been posted.

IMO there is nothing wrong with having a multiclass as a first character. The problem comes from multiclassing without a plan. If you have a vision for the character and a plan for how to make that vision a reality then there is nothing wrong with running a multiclass character -- even if it is your first DDO character.

Former PnP players can sometimes be in a better position to do this because they understand the basics of D&D. It is important to keep in mind that DDO isn't exactly like a person's D&D experience so some things aren't going to work as well. And, there are many adjustments made to the "rules" in order to adapt D&D to an MMO.

Some players feel that prior D&D experience is bad because of these differences. IMO if you keep in mind that DDO is not PnP then you can adjust easily.

That carrys over into character planning. And it is that ability to look down the road to L20 that can be useful in setting out a vision for what a character will be like -- including the class choices if multiclassing seems appropriate.

Conventional wisdom is that a player take rogue as their first level when building a rogue/whatever character. This has to do with the number of skills and skill points that are open to rogues at L1.

That isn't to say that taking rogue at a later level can't work. It just makes it a bit more difficult to get the skill points to a high level on the critical rogue skills.

Absolute critical skills for any rogue (other than those builds that splash only for evasion) are Search and Disable Device. These should be kept at the maximum skill level (which is 23 at L20 before adjustments for stats, gear, etc.).

After that it gets a bit into personal preferences. Most people will place high value on UMD. For some it is a critical skill.

Other skills that have varying degrees of importance (depending on who is offering their opinion) are Spot, Open Locks, Jump, Tumble, Move Silently, Hide, Bluff and Diplomacy. You will even see some people recommending Intimidate and Swim.

As you can see, there are a lot of skills that a rogue could try to focus on. This is easiest when playing a pure, or mostly pure, rogue or a rogue that multiclasses with another class that shares most of the skills. Rogue/ranger is popular for this reason.

Rogue/cleric is a bit difficult to pull off because of the cross-class skill penalty that cleric has to pay for rogue skills. Since skill points are based on INT there isn't a natural fit for the two classes.

This just means that you have to be very selective about the skills you choose and which you keep maxed vs those you let settle at lower levels.

Most people will recommend an 18/2 split of whatever/rogue. That is because DDO uses 6 level groupings in most of the PrEs. The normal progression is to take rogue at L1 and then again at L14 or later. When taking the second time the goal is to top off key skills with the available skill points.

It is a bit of a difficult thing to pull off but can be done with some preplanning. You will be forced to make sacrifices in some areas to make it work and you might not want to do that for your own reasons.

IMO FvS only makes it worse and not better. That is because FvS can have a bigger stat demand so you might not be able or willing to spread stat numbers enough to accommodate the rogue splash.

Lastly, I do agree that remaining pure class cleric isn't a bad thing. There are very few quests where rogue is absolutely demanded. Some will suggest that there are none. One quest that comes to mind quickly is VoN5. As that is a raid you probably won't run it without a rogue (or an arcane with knock) in any case.

Yes, you'll miss out on some XP, some treasure and some optionals. But, you should still be able to complete most quests.

So, while I disagree with some parts of what others have said I do agree that you should be just fine if you stick with cleric the whole time.

[Qaliya]

My dex based cleric 17/monk 2/rogue 1 has been a blast to play. It was my first toon to reach 20, and I still enjoy playing it. Here is tons of information on how to do it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292100

Thanks.

I'm not sure I can really do this as I think my Int is fairly low...

When did you take the monk and rogue levels here?

Also, 36 point build, is that something you have to pay extra for? I thought there was only 28 and 32. Obviously I have no favor yet so I can only do 28.

Thanks for the other opinions as well. I'll skip the FvS for now. And if I do the cleric/rogue thing I'm assuming I should take the first level as rogue? What would be good starting stats for a mostly-cleric/partial-rogue build?

[nbennet]

Thanks for the quick replies!

This character is very new (though I am very experienced in PnP D&D) and I may not be the sort to want to play through the same content multiple times ... thus my interest in "optimizing" off the bat.

Would I be better off playing through as a favored soul instead? I think that gets unlocked when you sign up for membership, which I just did.

Your PnP experience will often work against you, because of the many key differences between DDO and PnP. It's an admirable goal to try to optimize your character from the start, but realistically you will have a lot to learn and there is no shortcutting experience. Everyone (all vets included) makes a few errors in their first few characters.

A pure cleric is a great first choice. Your spell selection as an FVS is much more limited, and it requires some knowledge to choose appropriately, whereas Clerics can swap spells every rest. Clerics are robust and forgiving, and as long as you have max Wis and a decent Con, you will be able to cast offensively as well as heal. A little strength helps melee the early levels, and once you get your bladebarrier the sky is the limit. The biggest challenges you will face will come from other players and their expectations, not the game. My first character, a 28 point Human cleric, is one I now use for farming scrolls in Epics.

If you have not already read The Path to Enlightenment you may find it very useful (about cleric progression).

My suggestion to you would be to go for 20 on the cleric, learning the game and gaining favor. Once you've unlocked 32-point builds (via favor) make a second toon using the knowledge you've gleaned from playing the first. This could even be a Favored Soul (also unlocked via favor).

Best of luck to you and welcome to DDO!

[Lyzern]

If you wanna follow the Cleric/Rogue path which can be pretty viable as a solo char (I have some friends who have this build and can handle their own pretty well), it's entirely up to you. Do NOT let anyone say "LOL U'LL BE GIMP", they're wrong.

I suggest you get your Int to 12 or higher to get enough skills for trapfinding and disarming, opening locks and maybe search for doors. Beyond that, plan your stats as you want, don't dump Con, plan your feats according to clericness, maybe make a halfling if you're into it. Best advice I can give, can't help much further as I don't have full knowledge in this field.

[Habreno]

And totally ignore those who say you can't spot traps as a Cleric-without ANY points in either skill, I'm sitting on a self-buffed mid-40's in both Search and Spot. This is buffable into the 50's, and that's without ANY skill points in either skill. 18/2 Cleric/Rogue could certainly get both well over 50, as well as disable device.

[Qaliya]

Okay, thanks.

So.. continue with this one or start over with rogue. Hmm. I dunno.

[anto_capone]

Or make a second character and experiment...

[Ugumagre]

Okay, thanks.

So.. continue with this one or start over with rogue. Hmm. I dunno.

Qaliya, I am also quite frustrated when I cannot disable the traps or open some doors. But you may find also some intelligence runes or wisdom runes. But you don´t get stuck. And if someday you feel like it, pick a hireling rogue from the DDO Store (30 TP for one at least one hour) and let him do the job. I have learned also to have some fun with the hirelings. They can be very annoying

[jsaving]

For various reasons I like to mostly play solo. What I have read recently though suggests that if I don't have a rogue's trapfinding and door-opening abilities I will get stuck in many dungeons.

A lesson new players often draw from Korthos is that if they don't have any rogue levels, they'll miss out on interesting-looking chests. They then reach quests like Garrison's and Durk and see themselves missing out on optionals and entire dungeon wings, which leads to the seemingly inescapable conclusion that rogue levels are a must for soloing.

I personally think traps/locks is an overrated aspect of splashing rogue. Chests almost always contain low-value loot, and you'll miss only a small proportion of the game if you can't unlock doors. Nor are traps a huge issue for self-healing buffers like clerics except on elite/epic, and can often be timed or simply run through if need be. It's also worth mentioning that the game offers various ways to mitigate these issues even without grouping, from knock wands to rogue hirelings to simply (in some situations at least) watching how the trap operates.

There are lots of reasons why it can make sense for a character to splash rogue, including evasion and UMD. But I wouldn't suggest taking a permanent hit to caster level, spell points, and 9th level slots *solely* for traps/locks unless you're the kind of player who simply can't stand the thought of missing out on relatively small chunks of content and isn't willing to break his mainly-solo rule in those situations.

I'd also point out that maxing out search and disable device isn't easy to do on a 2-skill-point-per-level class like cleric, especially if you're already hoping to max concentration and put some points in jump/balance. That's not to say it is impossible -- you can do a forum search and find several viable clogue builds -- but it's really important to think carefully before creating your character if you are going to go this route. Done wrong, you'll simply end up gimping your ability to do other things without gaining enough trapsmithing skills to handle high-DC situations, which are the main reason why you'd be doing the splash in the first place.

[azrael4h]

Do ViPs get Warforged for their sub? If they do, then a Wiz18/Rog2 build might be in order. Similar degree of self-healing from repair/recon spells (without the stigma of a Cleric), while their casting stat synergizes well with the main skills of a trap-smith Rogue. As a bonus, they can take Insightful Reflexes as a feat and get high reflex saves as well, which work with Evasion quite nicely. Note you do sacrifice one of the best capstones in the game to go this route.

[Therigar]

Do ViPs get Warforged for their sub?

Yes. And, wiz/rog is a fun combo.

[Kinerd]

One thing not yet mentioned (or perhaps mentioned only obliquely) is that clerics get the Find Traps spell, which gives a (caster level / 2) insight bonus to Search. You can exploit this by not quite maxing out your Search skill and still keeping pace with those who do, as the trap game is not balanced around clogues. The only existing bonuses to Search relevant to this discussion are competence (most gear and all randomly generated gear), enhancement (certain named gear), morale (smaller, spell-based), and luck (much smaller, largely irrelevant), so Find Traps stacks with everything.

That being said, as a new player you may struggle to acquire the optimal trap gear for each breaking point (+3 at level 0, +5 at level 5, +X intelligence, etc.). Then again, if you're soloing there's no one to holler at you when you blow up a box.

In sum, I would (and did) stick with a pure cleric.

[Mellkor]

It was possible about a year or so ago for a 18 cleric / 2 rogue halfling to have the highest search skill in the game and disarm any trap in the game without fail AND heal any raid or epic quest without any problem. I am not sure if this is still true with all the changes to rogues since then. Even if it is not still true you can at least get to the level where it doesnt matter. I dont play my "clogue" as they are called, much anymore, but I still have a lot of fun with it when I do.

If you are interested PM me and I can give you more details on the build.