request a build: ungimping my cleric

[Havok.cry]

Ok I have this lvl 11cleric, its a gimp, Im not going into details but the important part is I dont like runing it anymore. It is human and pure cleric, and I dont just want to delete and start over, so I plan to LR.

I have a basic idea of what I want to do that I think I will enjoy more than What I have.
-melee, preferably khopeshes (but not required)
-divine might4
-good enough heals for epics/elite tod
-tough enough to be in melee on the bosses
-radiant servant pre

The Idea is to max the benefit from aura/burst by being in with the melees, it also lets me center heals on myself since keeping himself alive is the healers #1 priority. Focusing on melee though, I am not sure If I can get good enough stats for cc spells or the like.

Mostly I am looking for stat and feat layout, the rest falls into place easy enough after that.

[jaegarnel]

When you say khopeshes, I assume you mean TWF?

If so, your build seems a bit ambitious to me stat-wise.
You'd need 15 starting dex (unless you already have a +3 dex tome) for TWF feats, since you need them to dual-wield effectively. That's 8 build points.
You'd need 20 charisma (base +lvl ups + tome only) to get DM 4, so 16 or 17 at lvl 1. That's at least 10 build points, more probably 13 since you can't be sure to get a +4 tome.
You'd need as much strength as you can fit in, 16 minimum if you want to be good at melee and offset the to-hit penalty of TWF. That's at least 10 build points.
You need good constitution to survive in melee, at least 14 and the higher the better. That's at least 6 build points.

Even dumping wisdom completely, which would mean useless offensive spells and rather low sp, you can see that your ideal build needs at least 34 points, and 36 would be better. It could be done, but you'd sacrifice too much for DM 4 and TWF imo.

Plus, if you go TWF, your build will be really feat-starved, even with the human extra feat, since you'd need the 3 TWF feats, as well as the proficiency feat for khopesh (you'd need the martial weapon proficiency first as well, I think). That's five feats of your eight needed to turn you into a decent melee. Not worth it imo.


If you're set on making a melee cleric, then it'd be more efficient to go THF and forget about DM 4. Just try for DM 2 (14 base cha +2 tome is enough), get your strength and con as high as possible, put whatever's left in wisdom and you should be set.

As for feats, as a melee cleric you need empower healing, maximize (for BB, Divine Punishment and mass cures), extend for divine favor and divine power, toughness to have enough hp to melee without dying, quicken to be able to cast those heals in melee without worrying about being interrupted by the boss' attacks.
The rest is up for debate, power attack and the THF line would give you better melee.

[Phidius]

Human 32 pts
17 cleric/3 monk

Str: 14 (6)
Dex: 15 (8)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 8 (0)
Wis: 10 (2)
Cha: 15 (10)

Level-ups: Str

Feats:
1. Extend (swap @11 for Empower)
1. Toughness (human)
2. TWF (monk)
3. Empower Heal
6. Maximize
9. Quicken
12. Imp Crit: Bludgeon
13. Power Attack (monk)
14. Fists of light (monk)
Eat a +2 Dex tome
15. iTWF
18. gTWF

With a +3 Cha tome you can still get DM3. DM4 is too expensive in my opinion.

[Havok.cry]

For thf build what would you set the stats to... still want dm4 btw.

[Luckness]

To go TWF on a 32 point build and keep DM4 upon acquisition of a +3 tome you sacrifice some STR.

16 STR/15 DEX/14 CON/8 INT/8 WIS/15 CHA

Put the first 3 leveling increases into Strength and the last 2 into Charisma. You will need a +2 Dex tome and will want a +1 Charisma tome while leveling, and you will eventually get DM4 when you get a +3 charisma tome. You will also benefit from a Wisdom tome and Wisdom enhancements to make it easier to reach the 19 Wisdom needed to cast level 9 spells. You sacrifice 4 strength this way, compared to the build that starts with 18 and puts all 5 increases into strength, but you will have more DPS during Divine Might unless you aren't hitting.

If you go THF, the value of DM4 is dramatically lower (and the value of strength slightly higher). I feel that it is much too inferior to TWF because of this to consider (assuming you are married to Divine Might). Also, I do believe that you can get khopesh proficiency... similar to the way rogues get it without full martial proficiency.

Edit: I just tested it by trying to make a level 1 human cleric in game. I could not choose an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Oddly, however, the text from the game suggested that a cleric is a capable fighter and should consider feats, including "...even Exotic Weapon Proficiency." I also saw a few old builds for pure clerics that took EWP: Khopesh. Maybe this has changed? You can still use TWF and use a faith enhancement to get proficiency with longswords. Indeed, as a pure cleric, you will have no easy way to get proficiency with the 2 handed weapons (falchion, greataxe, greatsword)... you would need the Master's Touch spell... making TWF a good choice once again.

The main issue is that Divine Might and the Radiant Servant SLA's both compete for turn undead charges. You will mostly overcome this by having higher charisma and may want to buy the charisma enhancements and extra turn undead enhancements. But you will feel it when there is a long time between shrines.

[Luckness]

Human 32 pts
17 cleric/3 monk

Str: 14 (6)
Dex: 15 (8)
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 8 (0)
Wis: 10 (2)
Cha: 15 (10)

Because 15 CHA costs 8 build points, you've shortchanged him with a 30 point build.

[Luckness]

Here is what you requested...

-melee, with longswords
-divine might4
-radiant servant pre

Whether it is "good enough heals" or "tough enough" you will have to decide, as that will depend mostly on gear.

If you find yourself turning off power attack a lot you may want to swap it for something else.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1314 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 9
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    20
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                    13
Charisma             15                    20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CHA
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might IV
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

[Phidius]

...Edit: I just tested it by trying to make a level 1 human cleric in game. I could not choose an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Oddly, however, the text from the game suggested that a cleric is a capable fighter and should consider feats, including "...even Exotic Weapon Proficiency." I also saw a few old builds for pure clerics that took EWP: Khopesh. Maybe this has changed? ...

Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires BaB of 1 - just take it at level 3 instead.

Because 15 CHA costs 8 build points, you've shortchanged him with a 30 point build.

Even better

Int: 10 (1 more skill point per level - I recommend UMD)

[Luckness]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires BaB of 1 - just take it at level 3 instead.

Okay... good to know.

EWP: Khopesh could replace Power Attack on the build I posted. That will help with hit issues.

You could then also replace Unyielding Sovereign with Charisma II if you want an extra turn undead more.

[Havok.cry]

OK thanks for the suggestions guys. Im going to do my LR in about a, week so any thoughts you have before then feel free to send this way

[Havok.cry]

To go TWF on a 32 point build and keep DM4 upon acquisition of a +3 tome you sacrifice some STR.

16 STR/15 DEX/14 CON/8 INT/8 WIS/15 CHA

Put the first 3 leveling increases into Strength and the last 2 into Charisma. You will need a +2 Dex tome and will want a +1 Charisma tome while leveling, and you will eventually get DM4 when you get a +3 charisma tome. You will also benefit from a Wisdom tome and Wisdom enhancements to make it easier to reach the 19 Wisdom needed to cast level 9 spells. You sacrifice 4 strength this way, compared to the build that starts with 18 and puts all 5 increases into strength, but you will have more DPS during Divine Might unless you aren't hitting.

If you go THF, the value of DM4 is dramatically lower (and the value of strength slightly higher). I feel that it is much too inferior to TWF because of this to consider (assuming you are married to Divine Might). Also, I do believe that you can get khopesh proficiency... similar to the way rogues get it without full martial proficiency.

Edit: I just tested it by trying to make a level 1 human cleric in game. I could not choose an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Oddly, however, the text from the game suggested that a cleric is a capable fighter and should consider feats, including "...even Exotic Weapon Proficiency." I also saw a few old builds for pure clerics that took EWP: Khopesh. Maybe this has changed? You can still use TWF and use a faith enhancement to get proficiency with longswords. Indeed, as a pure cleric, you will have no easy way to get proficiency with the 2 handed weapons (falchion, greataxe, greatsword)... you would need the Master's Touch spell... making TWF a good choice once again.

The main issue is that Divine Might and the Radiant Servant SLA's both compete for turn undead charges. You will mostly overcome this by having higher charisma and may want to buy the charisma enhancements and extra turn undead enhancements. But you will feel it when there is a long time between shrines.

If I do longswords I could take some monk levels... how bad would it be to start taking those levels at lvl 13 after I get RS2? or would I have to get a +# heart of wood? I would take a total of 3, for 2 feats and light finisher buffs... I have looked over cleric spells and don't think this build would be missing much in the slots lost due to non-existant DCs

[Phidius]

If I do longswords I could take some monk levels... how bad would it be to start taking those levels at lvl 13 after I get RS2? or would I have to get a +# heart of wood?

Not bad - you get more skill points if you take monk at level 1, but I normally take cleric at 1 to fit in metamagics with the human bonus feat anyway.

I've not tried the whirling steel strike, but from what I've read you get more DPS from handwraps... plus you don't have to spend 2 feats to get it.

If you just want to use longswords for the flavor and fun, don't worry about staying in stance and the penalty to hit - just grab 2 and start swinging.

[Luckness]

If you splash monk you give up DM4 and should put all the ability increases into strength.

This gives you two feats and evasion, and you might be interested in the AC, but I would echo Phidius and say you really shouldn't worry about being centered. Maybe if you were doing a stunning fist build, but you're not.

Taking monk late can mess up your skill points depending on what skills you want (and you just plain get less). Alternatively it could allow you to use the monk levels to invest in a single cross-class skill like balance, if you want to look at the positive side of it.

I see two options for you...

(1) Khopesh TWF, pure cleric, build similar to the one posted
(2) 18/2 Cleric/Monk, still Khopesh, putting 2 more points into STR, and spending the extra feats on Power Attack and Oversized TWF

The latter would give you -2 hit and +4 damage (+3.5 offhand) relative to the former. The extra STR and feat mitigate but do not eliminate the hit lost from power attack. Conversely, taking DM4 without power attack partly mitigates the damage lost from not taking power attack. Keep in mind that being able to hit on a 2 is naturally a good way to increase damage and also that TWF carries a penalty of -2 in itself, even with Oversized TWF.

You also lose some cleric goodness by splashing (SP, capstone, spell slots ... hitler group leaders wanting pure).

[Havok.cry]

OK at this point I'm leaning towards phidius' build and taking the advice of the DM4 twf build for a later life.

[Phidius]

... This gives you two feats and evasion, and you might be interested in the AC, but I would echo Phidius and say you really shouldn't worry about being centered. Maybe if you were doing a stunning fist build, but you're not...

You don't need to be centered (i.e., handwraps) to get the AC bonus, just defensively centered (no armor, no shield, not encumbered).

You do, however, need to be centered to stay in Fire Stance for healing amp/+2 str, or in Water Stance for +2 to all saves, or Air Stance for faster punches, etc...

And if you go 3 monk, you need to be centered to use Fists of Light.

... hitler group leaders wanting pure).

You consider that "cleric goodness"?

I think that's a plus for the monk splash, personally.

[Luckness]

You don't need to be centered (i.e., handwraps) to get the AC bonus, just defensively centered (no armor, no shield, not encumbered).

You do, however, need to be centered to stay in Fire Stance for healing amp/+2 str, or in Water Stance for +2 to all saves, or Air Stance for faster punches, etc...

And if you go 3 monk, you need to be centered to use Fists of Light.

I realize this. I was saying not to worry about being "offensively" centered on this kind of build.

[EpiKagEMO]

just how you play it should be different. get 12 cleric first, then decide if you want to LR. regular shield, sword-> rush in ahead, turtle tank with the aura. DR w/ shield= Minimum damage with aggro. Minimum damage+aura=no net loss of hp.

If you want to battle, i would really clear that up with the leader of the party before going into front lines with your twf cleric(unless your sure your dps is way better) Though if you do, take advantage of divine power! it really helped my 12 str cleric hit EVERYTHING :3. By gianthold, all i could really do was use a paralyzer and help CC.

Saves= Unreal.
Focus onto Cha.

Feats Progression/list
1)Monk-Toughness, twf, Oversized
(take when you want evasion) 2nd Monk, Power attack/ WSS
3)Empower Healing
6) khopesh prof/Slashing boost
9) ITWF
12) Slashing X2 crit<-optional / Quicken
15) GTWF
18) Quicken/WSS/Power attack

Turns-Very Important
Use radiant loose divine might, use divine might and loose radiant.
your going to be burning through this ALOT. make sure your cha is freakin high.

Sp... 12 wis from 18 wis.. at end game you really gain 100 sp or so. lower this for cha.

Stat wise-build it like a twf pally. Splash in 2 monk levels, and possibly use WSS, water stance to heal, fire to attack. Splash pally for saves. Tukaw style.

Str 12 +1/2 Tome, Airship+1/2, +Divine might+divine power+divine favor= Silly bonuses for Over 30 Str
Dex 16 +1 tome. If you can afford +2, raise wis to 12 and lower dex to 15.
Con 14-Decent hp for surviving
Int 8-Useless.
Wis 10+6 item, no need for spells lvl 16 and up really.
Cha 16-very important stat-raise each time. +5 level, +6 item, +2 enh, +1/2 tome, +1/2 Airship=over 30 cha

Looks fun to play. Enjoy and GL.

Pros. Use full extent of cha. makes a super saves tank.
Cons. lower 100 sp and less spells if you didnt go pure.

NOTE* The build above show easily accesible stuff.
NOTE*#2 You CANT turn back. if you find your cleric gimpy after you reincarnated to your khopesh/twf cleric, good luck finding another.
NOTE* #3 I actually find myself satisfied with the build above, and might be posting it on the forums :3
NOTE* #4 He might be a bit slow on attacking since he is a cleric.
NOTE* #5 I try to make my posts a bit fun to read.