Endgame FvS: Soul Survivor vs. Evoker

[wiglin]

Their are 3 type of FvS to look at. Each one shines in its area.

Evoker: This FvS is the most effective scroll farmer (as far as divines go). If you do not have an arcane to scroll farm, then an evoker makes for a great backup. Their are several epics where reflex saves are not that good, and having a DC35+ bladebarrier will allow you to kill alot faster than melee soul. If however you have an arcane at cap, I would use the arcane for scroll farming. Its just easier, you don't have to kite or move at all for that matter. I actually lesser hearted my melee soul back to an evoker for the time being because I do not have an arcane scroll farmer, and I like seeing 300-600dmg bladebarriers. Let me just echo what Nick said. You will not be instakilling in epics as easy as an arcane, not even close. The tougher epics will require energy drains before destruction or implosion will land.

Melee: This FvS is the most effective in a party situation. Even if you are not a warforged you can use an esos and still have higher attack bonus then using any other weapon you are proficient with. ESoS + Divine Punishment + Archon + Keep everyone healed = a very good addition to any party or raid. In this situation I would not look melee damage alone, because the ESoS alone does not make you the top dpser in a group, but remember dps is not just melee dmg. Look at what the build brings to the table as a whole for dps not just its melee dmg.

Defensive: This build is for those who like to solo epics and or elite raids with minimal to no consumables. H-Elf with fighter dilettante is the way to go. This gets you an additional 20% healing amp and martial weapon proficiency. This build is actually alot of fun, if you like to see what you can do without using scrolls or potions. 650HP + FvS DR + Shield Mastery + Con Opp + Torq + Demonic Shield + Healing Amp + Healing Capstone = Able to withstand just about anything in the game, using only archon and divine punishment to kill stuff. Its a slower ride, but again their is something to be said about soloing Tod with no consumables used. This build will be about 6 points of str behind a pure str focused melee soul and can still melee with an epic sos and not be too far behind in damage.

All three can heal effectively, so really it boils down to what you want to do when you are not main healing.

[Raoull]

I'm curious about the responses to the Con based FvSs. People are calling them "selfish", or a "one trick pony".... but it seems to me that they aren't that far from the other ones. Either a melee based that gives up ~7 Str or so for more Con or a caster based that gives up that wisdom for Con.

It seems to harken back to hate I've seen on "healbots", but I don't think that is necessarily the case at all. With the introduction of DP, healbot is now just mentality. Any divine with Maximize (and moreso with Empower) can do significant boss DPS. It seems acknowledged that the Con based FvSs bring particular value to some raids (mainly ToD where you want to distract one boss while killing another), but for everything else... my view has always been that survivability is a very valuable trait in a divine. (Of course, just as the Con based FvS isn't necessarily totally gimped in other areas, it isn't that a Wis/Str based FvS is exactly bad at survival either...)

I don't really have any experience with them, my only divine is a clonk, and I don't even know anyone who plays one in game. But... survivability was a large part of the reason I went clonk rather than pure cleric, so I'm sympathetic to the idea of a Con FvS (and long term, contemplating TRing into one). But with multiple responses against them... I'm wondering what I'm missing.

But then again... I've also seen stuff on how caster divines can't get their DCs and Spell Pen up enough to be worthwhile in epic, how melee divines never heal and do lousy DPS, etc etc. Perhaps I'm just now noticing the anti-ConFvS posts because its more forefront in my brain than it used to be....

[Nick_RC]

I'm curious about the responses to the Con based FvSs. People are calling them "selfish", or a "one trick pony".... but it seems to me that they aren't that far from the other ones. Either a melee based that gives up ~7 Str or so for more Con or a caster based that gives up that wisdom for Con.

Let me start by saying I don't pay anyone else's subs-people can and should play whatever they want. If being nigh unkillable with a lacklustre offense (apart from anything except end bosses) floats ur boat- more power to you. Play what ever is fun for you. I can certainly see the appeal of being able to solo Tod.

I can't speak for others but why I dislike them so much in epics(what the OP was discussing) is based on the following;

1. I like to get the runs done fast. That's number one priority. I don't like to sniff flowers -especially because we havnt had any new epics for a long time and I can't see any on the horizon. I like to blaze quests down as fast as possible. I want killers in my groups-whethr it's instakillers, high dps melees, nuking sorcs- whatever they are I don't care as long as they can dish out the pain.

Now the con based fvs does nothing to further this. A wisdom based instakillers or str based meléeer will do anything the con can do- but faster. The con based has nothing for efficient trash killing. Yes they can melée or cast if they choose either as a secondary 'role' BUT consider this.

MELEE
1. Melée fvs do mediocre melée dps in the grand scheme of things.
2. A 'blob' build is typically human or more likely halfelf with ftr dillie(if they have any pretense of meleeing). They don't have the feats and stats too 2wf as well as keep blob feats. So ESOS by default...(and what a waste of a shard that would be).So let's take a helf that starts at 14 str- a reasonable stat distribution from point efficiency. So base 14 vs 23(wf max str)-let's be generous to the blob and make it 22 so an eight point difference. All gear the same other than that.

So u get
- 6 less damage from strength
- 4 from fvs weapon specific feats
- 6 from wf PA
- 10 from PA. Realistically they won't hit reliably with PA on(even if they have it).

That's 26 damage a hit with an esos. That's a big chunk of damage. Melee fvs do moderate damage to begin with...take off 26 a hit... And that's into 'my hirelings does more dps than you' territory. I imagine the smart blob players wouldn't even bother with meleeing.

OFFENSIVE CASTING.

Again let's start with 14 wisdom to a humans effective 24. (sure the blob can take human adapt wisdom as well BUT the smart ones know it's a waste of ap).

That's a 5 dc differential right there. Then take feats wiz pl, evoc focuses and the difference can be 8 or so. Now I can tell you the approximate success rates of my instakills in any epics (40-42 wis, 3 sorc past lives, chosen wizard, every conceivae piece of gear). Being 5-8 dc lower than what I have right now takes it into 'why am I casting this what a waste of sp' territory.

Then you have bladebarrier- yeah given enough time you can kill trash even with weak(often saving) bladebarriers. But time is of the essence to me and having a fvs kite around 6-8 epic mobs while the melees try to chase em down... Forget about it. And if you have regenning mobs or divine trash that heals their allies- forget about it you ain't killin squat.

It's just ever so slow.

So then they have divine punishment. That's it. That's why you hear the term one trick pony being thrown around.

DEFENSIVELY

They are absolutely incredible on the defense tho. Shield blocking and takin little to no damage from epic mobs is insane- it really is. But unless ur solo...who's gonna be beating on you? No one because you can't deal any damage. DP alone is not enough to maintain aground on a raid boss unless you give it substantial time to stack up.... wasting even more time.

The defensive portion is indeed spectacular...but really outside of soloing Tod and dq do you really need it?

Favored souls already have;
- great hp due to class toughness enhancements
- great base saves +holy aura
- wings!!
- instant healing
- dr

Lol how much more defense do you need for general play? Why would u gimp nearly all offensive capabilities. A good fvs was nigh unkillable before... If you NEED that extra defence then ur a bad player or have a terrible build. Just putting shield mastery on a regular fvs whether it be str or wis based is more than enough defensively. The rest is overkill.

They are solo builds and I'm fine with that. I'm sure they are too. Soloing Tod with no pots is impressive. They are built with a specific goal in mind and I respect that. Would I advocate it for general play? Not in a million years. Unless someone wanted a really fat healbot.

Again just my opinion take it for what you will.

N

[voodoogroves]

Let me start by saying I don't pay anyone else's subs-people can and should play whatever they want. If being nigh unkillable with a lacklustre offense (apart from anything except end bosses) floats ur boat- more power to you. Play what ever is fun for you. I can certainly see the appeal of being able to solo Tod.

I can't speak for others but why I dislike them so much in epics(what the OP was discussing) is based on the following;

1. I like to get the runs done fast. That's number one priority. I don't like to sniff flowers -especially because we havnt had any new epics for a long time and I can't see any on the horizon. I like to blaze quests down as fast as possible. I want killers in my groups-whethr it's instakillers, high dps melees, nuking sorcs- whatever they are I don't care as long as they can dish out the pain.

Now the con based fvs does nothing to further this. A wisdom based instakillers or str based meléeer will do anything the con can do- but faster. The con based has nothing for efficient trash killing. Yes they can melée or cast if they choose either as a secondary 'role' BUT consider this.

MELEE
1. Melée fvs do mediocre melée dps in the grand scheme of things.
2. A 'blob' build is typically human or more likely halfelf with ftr dillie(if they have any pretense of meleeing). They don't have the feats and stats too 2wf as well as keep blob feats. So ESOS by default...(and what a waste of a shard that would be).So let's take a helf that starts at 14 str- a reasonable stat distribution from point efficiency. So base 14 vs 23(wf max str)-let's be generous to the blob and make it 22 so an eight point difference. All gear the same other than that.

So u get
- 6 less damage from strength
- 4 from fvs weapon specific feats
- 6 from wf PA
- 10 from PA. Realistically they won't hit reliably with PA on(even if they have it).

That's 26 damage a hit with an esos. That's a big chunk of damage. Melee fvs do moderate damage to begin with...take off 26 a hit... And that's into 'my hirelings does more dps than you' territory. I imagine the smart blob players wouldn't even bother with meleeing.

OFFENSIVE CASTING.

Again let's start with 14 wisdom to a humans effective 24. (sure the blob can take human adapt wisdom as well BUT the smart ones know it's a waste of ap).

That's a 5 dc differential right there. Then take feats wiz pl, evoc focuses and the difference can be 8 or so. Now I can tell you the approximate success rates of my instakills in any epics (40-42 wis, 3 sorc past lives, chosen wizard, every conceivae piece of gear). Being 5-8 dc lower than what I have right now takes it into 'why am I casting this what a waste of sp' territory.

Then you have bladebarrier- yeah given enough time you can kill trash even with weak(often saving) bladebarriers. But time is of the essence to me and having a fvs kite around 6-8 epic mobs while the melees try to chase em down... Forget about it. And if you have regenning mobs or divine trash that heals their allies- forget about it you ain't killin squat.

It's just ever so slow.

So then they have divine punishment. That's it. That's why you hear the term one trick pony being thrown around.

DEFENSIVELY

They are absolutely incredible on the defense tho. Shield blocking and takin little to no damage from epic mobs is insane- it really is. But unless ur solo...who's gonna be beating on you? No one because you can't deal any damage. DP alone is not enough to maintain aground on a raid boss unless you give it substantial time to stack up.... wasting even more time.

The defensive portion is indeed spectacular...but really outside of soloing Tod and dq do you really need it?

Favored souls already have;
- great hp due to class toughness enhancements
- great base saves +holy aura
- wings!!
- instant healing
- dr

Lol how much more defense do you need for general play? Why would u gimp nearly all offensive capabilities. A good fvs was nigh unkillable before... If you NEED that extra defence then ur a bad player or have a terrible build. Just putting shield mastery on a regular fvs whether it be str or wis based is more than enough defensively. The rest is overkill.

They are solo builds and I'm fine with that. I'm sure they are too. Soloing Tod with no pots is impressive. They are built with a specific goal in mind and I respect that. Would I advocate it for general play? Not in a million years. Unless someone wanted a really fat healbot.

Again just my opinion take it for what you will.

N

It may sound heretical but I'm leaning even more to 18/2 splits for melees, even on the WF. I can slot DR with items easily enough and the haste boost / feats / whatever makes up for it. Plus, with dungeon scaling also scaling my passive DR, I don't trust it. It's a nifty capstone ability that is scaled behind the scenes. Unhappiness.

I too am impatient. That's actually one reason why I'm kinda circling back to evasion - it lets me play sloppy and fast(er).

[Raoull]

Let me start by saying I don't pay anyone else's subs-people can and should play whatever they want. If being nigh unkillable with a lacklustre offense (apart from anything except end bosses) floats ur boat- more power to you. Play what ever is fun for you. I can certainly see the appeal of being able to solo Tod.

I can't speak for others but why I dislike them so much in epics(what the OP was discussing) is based on the following;

1. I like to get the runs done fast. That's number one priority. I don't like to sniff flowers -especially because we havnt had any new epics for a long time and I can't see any on the horizon. I like to blaze quests down as fast as possible. I want killers in my groups-whethr it's instakillers, high dps melees, nuking sorcs- whatever they are I don't care as long as they can dish out the pain.

Ah.... OK, I totally see your point. From that point of view, it makes total sense. I don't have the same constraints as you do. I'm one of the zergier of a pretty non-zergy guild. I do random pugs, sometimes with dubious other toons (on bad days, I may be one of them). But my game gets a little end-gamier all the time. I've learned that info like this may strike me as "but I don't play like that".... and then down the line, my game drifts down that road.

So while "I don't play like that".... I'll still take this into serious consideration. The differences were a tad more than the back of the envelope calcs I've made (basically the stat differences is only half the story, with the feat differences widening the gap).

Thanks!

That said... as a cleric I still often feel that as long as I can stay alive.... its not a wipe. Even if I rarely come back from the brink of disaster, those are the best moments to me. And I live in a world where a wipe is a often real threat, because I try to keep slowly ramping up what I can do. But if I play long enough, there will eventually come a point where I'm at the top of the ramp (where you're hanging now, I imagine) and my priorities will change. (Go Go Reincarnation!)

[wax_on_wax_off]

My dilemma with my Soul Survivor is that with AoV that enhancements are stretched so tight that I almost have to choose between AoV OR threat tanking.

Until U11 and DA (Divine Avenger) I'd say go with the Evoker and enjoy the new PrE in all its glory.

Overall, I'm not sure that you have a choice. You can't change race with an LR so if you are WF now you should go Soul Survivor, if you aren't then you shouldn't.

TWF melee DPS FvS' are ok but don't have the versatility of a Soul Survivor and generally are the hardest to gear due to feat requirements.

[balancetraveller]

A really great thread with awesome debates. Helped me nailed down the path of my new FvS finally!

IMHO anyone new to FvS and feeling a bit clueless 'bout all the FvS variations should give this thread a read!

[Ancient]

This thread is a great read, but it is missing one thing... an advocate for the abominable blob... aka the CON based FVS. If you have an Esos, or a well geared evoker... those builds are hard to match. But I think the case can be made that a CON based FVS is a solid choice for getting started. It probably plays a little closer to the sole-survivor build, but it is easier to hit god-mode survivalbility at the cost of weapon DPS.

The first time I saw an actual build posted was by Healings Easy:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344390

I run a similar build although I did drop improved shield mastery for improved crit slashing. I have the monk dil enhancements.

Here are some benefits/advice I have regarding blobs:

1. How do you deal with trash?
My go to tools include:
* Terror: Improved crit + terror provides instakill for easy epics and most elites. In these types of quests, I'm usually competitive for kill count. Terror does drop off quickly in the tougher high-end content, and you need to know when to put the toy up and use your other tools. Not being proficient in greatsword has not been a limiting factor for me inside the content where I should be using it.
* Mournlode Longsword: My healing capstone provides me with longsword proficency, the FVS curse can increase light damage and the blinding capabilities can help sneak attack damage kick in.
* Blade Barrier: always awesome
* Divine punishment: only on troublesome mobs
* Implosion: 2d3+6 damage per caster level every 2 seconds for 10 seconds... and a chance at instakill. In fact, many of the instakill spells double as no-save damage spells.
* Archon: Even more mana efficient than divine punishment
* Turtle: It is slow and non-glorious, but turtling up behind a shield and relying on archon/guard damage can get you through some very tough content before you have any mana regen gear.

2. What are some reasons a first lifer would pick this build?
* A high HP build has the lowest gear requirements to solo the demon queen. Obtaining a torc is a key milestone for any caster hopeful of soloing. Soloing the demon queen is simply a matter of shield blocking and dotting her down. The extra HP gives you the best buffer to do this at the earliest level. Extra wis does not help, using a greatsword does not help.

* This build makes the best use of the healing capstone. The capstone, scrolls and non-metamagic cure serious allow nearly infinite single target healing. I mostly PUG raids, and having deep mana reserves help me drive through completions without having to resort to the bottle.

3. Any answers to the nanny-bot label?
* In high level raids/very difficult content... guilty. In those situations, I'm generally grouped with people geared far far above what I have. If being able to fulfill a specialized role for groups way above your gear level is a drawback... it is one I can live with.

* For anything else, I'm attacking while healing/casting. Hold the left mouse button down so you are constantly swinging... you will hit whatever your weapon hits even if you do not have them targeted. Mass heals can be cast without changing targets.. that is easy mode. While still swinging, you can use function keys to select party members and cast single target heal spells and quickly return to fighting with minimal interruption. I also spam blade barriers and implosions whenever I'm in target rich environments. The three or four times I've run with the all FVS shroud on Thelanis, I've lead kill count. I understand that kill count means nothing other than... the build is capable of doing more than being a nanny-bot.

4. How can you claim this is more survivable than sole-survivor?
Capstone/heal amp. The sole-survivor probably pulls ahead once you have the high end docent's... but a cav plate is far far easier to get than a Dod.

5. Walmart epics
Some of my "favorite" gear to outfit my blob has been "non-real-epic" gear
* Mornloude Longsword, Terror, Calviery Plate - already mentioned
* Minos Legens - always great till you get better
* Battered Pharlin Shield - good to turtle early on, amazing later for killing arcane casters. Between pro-evil, fom and death ward... dancing balls was the last will save that I feared... till I figured out how broken this item was.
* Levik's Defender - Probably too high-end to list as a walmart epic, but it is from a no-flag raid and amazing for shield-blocking.
* Con-Op longsword. Once you have your con-op armor, you can add a longsword without having to cleanse anything. The extra heal amp goes great with the healing capstone and the extra con-op is more mana regen.
* Bold Trinket/Epic Brawling Gloves/Epic ring of the stalker. The sneak attack damage helps improve the melee capabilities, the seeker helps confirm terror crits.
* guild augment slots/cunning trinket - If you're going to go nanny-bot, the extra sp from a mana guild aug and the cunning trinket help you dress up for the part.
* Night Hag's Heartstone - Easy to acquire instakill for turtle mode. I have heard great things about the blasting chime, but I do not have one yet.
* Other guard gear/instakill - anything you can get with instakill or guards can add to the fun. Stormsinger cloak is a very nice one for mid levels. Its like a Tukaw build... only without the pally, rogue... or sorcerer

6. Final tip - The shield block bug
Sometimes when shield blocking, your character can get bugged where you are unable to interact with doors, chests and other things that you might really.. really need to interact with. Simply change weapon sets and you will once again be able to open doors/chests.

If I had a bunch of past lives and much better gear... I'd probably switch to an evoker build. But since I play several characters, it is nice to have one toon that I could get to high end raid potential with minimal investment. Its also nice that the very same toon is my go to gal for being able to kick butt in almost any situation.

For me, my con based FVS is fun.