Endgame FvS: Soul Survivor vs. Evoker

[Pariahman]

If you are already warforged and have no past lives and little gear (already taking a hit to wisdom) and are just lring - go melkors or sirgogs. No questions asked. Your spells will just bounce otherwise and you will just be an inefficient healbot.

Go have fun and hit things - maybe further down the track when you aquire gear etc look at an evoker type but for the moment go max strength wf.

N

This was my exact reason why hesitating on going for an evoker.
WF really makes taking sirgog's build a tempting choice.

But the DPS of a casting fvs is too good.

And isn't the soul survivor more reliant on gear than an evoker? :P i.e Torc, Conc-Opp Gs item, gorgon docent- until red scale?

[wootvenu]

If you are already warforged and have no past lives and little gear (already taking a hit to wisdom) and are just lring - go melkors or sirgogs. No questions asked. Your spells will just bounce otherwise and you will just be an inefficient healbot.

Go have fun and hit things - maybe further down the track when you aquire gear etc look at an evoker type but for the moment go max strength wf.

N

This then.

[Pariahman]

The problem with taking Sirgog's is that i only am using a +5 Holy Greatsword of Pure Good. my damage is peanuts compared to casting.

and i do not have a Torc to maintain my sp while tanking,
nor a conc-opp item crafted.

[Nick_RC]

This was my exact reason why hesitating on going for an evoker.
WF really makes taking sirgog's build a tempting choice.

But the DPS of a casting fvs is too good.

And isn't the soul survivor more reliant on gear than an evoker? :P i.e Torc, Conc-Opp Gs item, gorgon docent- until red scale?

Honestly im unsure what you mean about dps is so good. do you mean blade barriers? do you mean divine punishment? do you mean instakill potential? I dont think you are using the term dps correctly. Care to clarify?

N

[Pariahman]

How about this.

WF Favored Soul

All into wis, maintain CHA, 14 base Con.
enough int (with tome) to fill in UMD, concentration, and jump after lvl7.

Greater spell pen
spell pen
heighten
maximise
empower/empower healing? (if i want to focus on healing)
toughness
addy body/ or quicken if i want to have better balance check. (addy body -5's on a lot of my skills.)

BladeBarrier, some buffs, AovI/II, Cometfall, Implosion, energy drain, etc.

[wootvenu]

I would like to see your stats put in here and then speak further.

Edit jst seen some stats above, whats ur str?

[Pariahman]

Honestly im unsure what you mean about dps is so good. do you mean blade barriers? do you mean divine punishment? do you mean instakill potential? I dont think you are using the term dps correctly. Care to clarify?

N

Bladebarriers, instantkills, Divine punishments tick more damage/ per second than swinging a greatsword ever will for this class combo.

with the enhancement lines for smiting, which totals to a potential 40% dmg increase to offensive spells as a favored soul..

Evoker>Soul Survivor

[Nick_RC]

I'm saying that with a high-wis casting fvs, i'd land destructions and implosions on a much more frequent rate.
if i drop adamantine body, grab evocation focus, I would Kite BB, destruct and implode stragglers, and cometfall those clutsy mobs.

I really think your enthusiasm is misplaced about instakills on an undergeared non trd fvs. If you read the forums alot you will see alot of hooplah about instakilling divines but - honestly - alot of it is BS. The people that do this have many trs under the belt and have all the gear they need, and are stronger offensive casting race than wf.

I run a hybrid fvs - he has 40 str and 40 wis(42 in offensive casting mode). He has 3 ftr 3 monk 3 sorc and 2 wizard(amongst others) past lives under the belt. I still use my sword alot.

My implosions work nicely on the softer epics but desert and higher fort save mobs - no deal. My destructions and slay livings work in softer content after a bestow curse/symbol of death. In the desert or against higher fort mobs - forget about it. Now I have at worst 5 higher evocation dc than you and 2 higher necro. At worst. If you want to go this route be aware that you will have to prep the mobs you want to instakill heavily before you can get a kill. Blade barrier sure. Instakills not so much.

Its your character do whatever you like and have fun with it. I just think there is an ongoing forum myth that any wisdom based fvs can instakill easily in epics. Its just not the case.

Good luck off for the night!

N

[FrozenNova]

This is the subtle distinction maybe I should point out.

A WIS-dumped WF FVS can go AoV 2 and triple stack DP.
An evoker (WIS high) can go AoV2 and triple stack DP.
A CON-high FVS can go AoV2 and triple stack DP.

They only differ in how they kill trash. The WF wis-dump melees and BB kites. The Evoker uses DC based spells and SP. The CON-high probably BB kites first, melee second.


WIS has no bearing on many actual damage-producing spells you'd want to use, certainly not on Divine Punishment. Triple stacking Divine Punishment on someone you've got hit w/ your aura of retribution, etc. will out DPS your melee capabilities by far. Huge amounts. Absolutely agree.


What folks are doing is seeing "Wisdom based Evoker" as being necessary to be a "casting FVS". AoV and Divine Punishment allow for "casting FVS" who are not Wisdom / Heighten / DC based.



A WIS-based evoker w/ AoV2 has the same casting DPS w/ Divine Punishment damage as a 6 WIS WF melee FVS with STR high.

Evokers by definition focus in evocation - implode and blade barrier. Calling every fvs a 'casting fvs' because everyone can cast DP is as purposeless as calling every fvs a 'healing fvs'.

With response to question - the upper boundary for first life sustainable divine DC is effectively 41, with literally maxed gear*. That's the same as my fairly undergeared pale master.

*Wis: 18 base +5 levels +7 epic mroaenon +4 tome +1 human +3 enhancements +1 litany +3 exceptional +2 yugo +2 ship = 46 wis = 18 mod.
10 base + 9 heighten + 2 focus feats + 2 greater focus item + 18 mod = 41.

If a 41 *maximum* dc in either destruction & slay living OR implode and blade barrier at the cost of four feats (focus and spell pen) is better than the melee capacity of a melee fvs -- you roll a casting fvs. Simple enough. That is the only choice in this decision (so I don't know why people are referring to divine punishment - maximize and empower is all you can do to it).

Three +evocation past lives, a wizard past life, and completionist, bumps your dc by 5, for 46. Combined with aura? Effective DC 48. Which would definitely merit rolling a casting fvs. That said, you'd probably have to give up one or both spell penetration feats to fit, so maybe more +spell penetration past lives too.

..Yeah, I'm not a fan of the huge caster-orientated tr bonuses either.

[Nick_RC]

Bladebarriers, instantkills, Divine punishments tick more damage/ per second than swinging a greatsword ever will for this class combo.

with the enhancement lines for smiting, which totals to a potential 40% dmg increase to offensive spells as a favored soul..

Evoker>Soul Survivor

**** I wanted to take off but will address this quickly. Re-read voodoos post firstly he summed it up nicely. Basically bladebarriers and DP ticks can be done just as well by a str based warforged. As well as swinging your sword. DP does not have a save ('yet' im guessing). With ur platform above even wisdom based alot of epic mobs will save on ur bb... thats 2 out of your 3 damage per second addressed. You're instakills will bounce more often than not and will likely be a waste of sp. Its not theoretical what im telling you - Im telling you what I have experienced personally IN epics.

Being melee doesnt mean you cannot cast. Its not black and white there are many shades of grey.

Hope this helps.

N

[Pariahman]

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9445/forumpp.jpg

But as I said, I'm planning on LR'ing and keeping this toon capped at 20.
which means, ability scores are to be decided.

those stats are with +2 tome to all, and enhancements etc.

Here are the untouched base scores:
14 STR
8 DEX
12 CON
10 INT
20 WIS
12 CHA

[voodoogroves]

Evokers by definition focus in evocation - implode and blade barrier. Calling every fvs a 'casting fvs' because everyone can cast DP is as purposeless as calling every fvs a 'healing fvs'.

and

If a 41 *maximum* dc in either destruction & slay living OR implode and blade barrier at the cost of four feats (focus and spell pen) is better than the melee capacity of a melee fvs -- you roll a casting fvs. Simple enough. That is the only choice in this decision (so I don't know why people are referring to divine punishment - maximize and empower is all you can do to it).

I have a FVS I would consider a "casting" FVS. She's got melee as a minor and has dumped Wisdom. I cast all the time. I cast mostly things that don't have a save or the save is less important ... but I certainly wouldn't call her an evoker.

The OP keeps talking about "casting DPS" and DCs are largely unimportant for casting "DPS" when it comes to bosses.

DCs matter for dealing with trash and maybe CC. Wisdom does not matter at all for boss/mini-boss DPS on a FVS.

[Pariahman]

Ah. this is good insight. With Bladebarrier being the bread and butter of the FvS, its true that you do not need WIS to make it effective. Coming back to my original worries, is the downsides and upsides of either breed.

It does seemed doomed to be an evoker WF FvS on a first life. very, very true. my DC's would be very low at the best of my buffed capability, and at that, i would in fact be draining precious SP casting failed spells when i could be using it to heal.
/rep +1 nick

It seems i need to go grind for a torc tonight and go get me a SoS. in the meantime.. ohh looky, some GS ingredients... time to address that confusion in another place in the forums.

Now, can anyone recommend a good Greatsword in the meantime whilst obtaining a sos?
im expecting greensteel, but i never know.

[laeris]

Actually the OP is correct the damage on a melee fvs (sirgogs or melkor) is indeed mediocre in the scheme of things (not incuding DP). I run a Half-Orc 18fvs/2ftr that does slightly more melee dps than your traditional wf fvs and I can gurantee you the damage is mediocre (and I have everything you could possibly want for a melee- ESOS, Emari chain and red armor for different situations etc)- but thats ok FVS are more about the sum of their parts. Not knocking lord of blades builds at all I think they are very fun - Just dont expect them to do 'really good' dps compared to the big hitters.

OP what race are you? you said lr for final build - did you mean TR? Alot will depends on what race you are (if you do mean lr) and what past lives (if any) that you possess. Also which epics will you be running? Evokers destroy easier epics much faster than any LoB ever could but without significant gear and past lives will bounce off harder epics (really just the desert).

If you are undergeared and non trd my recomendation would be wf fvs - get into groups for heals and do what dps you can along the way. If you have gear or have multiple sorc and wiz pastlives (im guessing you dont but couldnt find reference anywhere) evoker will blow lord of blades out of the water in current epics.

Hope this helps.

N

100% agree with everything stated in this post

[voodoogroves]

Greensteel(s) would be a good target. I carry a golf-bag on mine (SOS isn't epic yet) including
- Anarchic Adamantine of Smiting
- Holy of Disruption
- Banish of Elemental Bane
- Holy Silver of Outsider Bane
- Vorpal of Righteousness
- Shock of Dragon Bane
- etc.

Named-wise, there just aren't many that are really super excellent. Whirlwind (sands), Cloudburst (Reaver raid), Terror (Mindsunder), Blade of Fury (Lordsmarch) are all +5 with "stuff" but aren't super awesome. A non-epic SoS is probably better DPS than any of those in the general sense, with the specials being useful in the appropriate special situations.

[Pariahman]

could you post resources for crafting such greensteel weapons?

[wootvenu]

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9445/forumpp.jpg

But as I said, I'm planning on LR'ing and keeping this toon capped at 20.
which means, ability scores are to be decided.

those stats are with +2 tome to all, and enhancements etc.

Here are the untouched base scores:
14 STR
8 DEX
12 CON
10 INT
20 WIS
12 CHA

Alright,

I see you as a evoker specced with secondary/mediocre dps. Now I see why you want to LR, str at 22ish wont match to do decent job in epics. Going Str or wis based is purely personal choice

For evoker:
1. For end game viability and epics i suggest you gear up your fvs like con opp, etc.
2.I prefer taking spell focus: evocation and greater spell focus: evocation and take 2 sets of spell pen enhancements....AOE damage is much effective than insta kills/damage.
3.Quicken is must have spell, empower healing helps for fvs wf
4.Heighten is very useful for evoker.

For DPS type:
A Melee without well geared is meh in epics. may be ESOS?


If you can get your wisdom to 42 ish i would say go evoker!

[voodoogroves]

I use this planner: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle...roud/index.php

Stick on Greatsword, then monkey and find what you like. Some popular options would be ...

Min2 Greatsword (Mineral 2)

Lit2 Greatsword (Lighting Strike)

Triple Positive Staff (for undead / blunt DR / greater disruption holy/good/good)

[Uchuujin-San]

Having both an caster style as well a WF melee FvS have to agree with Nick there +1 mate. Having said that i find that with a paltry 37 DC ( havent got any spell focus feats, litany +4 tome yadda, yadda) is good enough to get casters bout 8/10 times in most of the epics i've been in bar drow casters (stupid high SR).. you wont be getting melee mobs with their high fort saves without prepping, but never underestimate the usefulness of picking off the odd caster before he can get that emp+max DBF into the face of the melees.

in terms of weapons i'd vote for a MIN2 greatsword as your first crafted as its just a great all round DR breaker then work on that epic grind for eSoS. personally i've found that using even the non epic SoS is good enough for trash due to its huge crit range and i alternate between that and my min2 depending on DR (havent got an eSoS yet .)

[voodoogroves]

I personally HATE those builds with a passion. Blobs - thats all they are. They are good at soloing raid bosses thats it. One of the other 2 species are superior in general play. Not an attack on you mate ur just giving the options but I just see them as awfully gimpy for general questing. For specific tasks like soloing tod etc sure...but everyday play no way.

N

I hear you ;-) I've got 3 FVS at cap or TRing and none of them are CON-high. It's like building an intimitank pre-U9 ... one trick pony. Sure, you can make one or two raids a bit easier, but the rest of the time I'd find non-appealing to play.