Traps doing redonkulous damage on elite.

[Sircowdog]

So I've been doing a lot of Soloing lately. Got my FvS up to level 12 and am still going strong. But I noticed when I went back to fill out some of my favor on elite runs of low level quest(level 5/6) I ran into an issue where I was actually getting killed for the first time since the Red-named Beholder in "The Jungle of Khyber"(and he only got me twice before I took him down).

Traps on elite difficulty just seem massively over-tuned. My FvS fully buffed has a base of 198 HP at lvl 12, with an additional +21 from Aid, and 5/adam DR. Physical traps often one-shot me if I happen to fail a single save, with traps often hitting 3-5 times. Elemental based traps also do horrendous damage, even through res30 and 120 points of protection. I've been dropped to less than 20 HP by some elemental traps even through all that.

To me this seems a little ridiculous. Even though the quest is on elite difficulty, it doesn't seem quite right for traps to be able to take down a player 5 levels above the quest with that many HP and resistances. What it seems like to me is a gimmick to force players to either take evasion, or more likely, to bring a trapmonkey along for the ride.

Now, I'm sure there will be people who throw up the argument "DDO is a team game!", which I have no problem with. But sometimes teams don't include rogues, and contriving a reason to take them just doesn't seem like good game design.

One of the greatest parts of DDO, from what I've seen, is the ability to take nearly any combination of classes and builds into a run and come out victorious. And the only exception I've seen to this so far are the traps on elite, which force you to take a rogue or wipe, since there is no other option to bypass them other than disarm.

Now, granted these situations are few and far between, and really only amount to an annoyance in the long run since doing every single quest on elite isn't a mandatory part of the game. Its just something that I noticed that really bothered me, since in almost every other situation I was able to figure out a way to work around an obstacle.

NOTE: I understand that there were rogue hirelings available at one point, but they were disabled due problems with them or something? Any word on when they're returning? Also, I guess you can buy a rogue hireling for TP, but that seems like a terrible terrible waste of hard-earned TP for only a few runs. Are there any other options available for overcoming these redonkulous traps on elite runs?

[Helexax]

rogue hirelings are only available in the ddo store afaik.

[Schmoe]

Are there any other options available for overcoming these redonkulous traps on elite runs?

Find a friend.

PUG.

Don't run the quest.

Get more HP.

Get better twitch skills.

[Shade]

.... Soloing .....
<cut> Even though the quest is on elite difficulty, it doesn't seem quite right for traps to be able to take down a player 5 levels above the quest with that many HP and resistances.

Your solo'ing elite difficulty, and often succeeding.. Yet you think the problem is that you got killed by a trap?

.. Elite was never intended to be solo'd. Thats what casual/normal is for. The fact you can even do it on ANY quest either means you are very skilled and knowledable and doing something unexpected by the developers. Or the quests are too these days easy due to factors added after they were release (often the case, newer quests are often more difficult on elite to solo then older ones.)

Every trap on elite should ALWAYS 1 shot kill any solo player in all cases on a failed save. Whats redicules is to thnk otherwise.. It's elite, you failed to dodge the trap. Suck it up and try again, or give up and doing an easier difficulty.

Now, I'm sure there will be people who throw up the argument "DDO is a team game!", which I have no problem with. But sometimes teams don't include rogues, and contriving a reason to take them just doesn't seem like good game design.

No, despite the fact elite is meant to be difficult.. Not a single quest in the game features any traps that can stop a solo favored soul or any other class in the game. 99.9% of traps in the game can be navigated without being hit thru player skill alone. The 0.1% that can never do enough damage to 1 shot a player with reasonably good HP for the level (and yea you HP seems fine, you just are trying to zerg thru a physical trap without any skil and you failed and died. Dodge it next time, there are no phsyical traps at around that level that are undodgable. Only one I can think of that is undodgeable is the wizard king lever traps - which deal elemental damage you can easily survive with a protection from elements.

So no, rogues are never required to beat any quest in the game. Not elite, not epic. A couple have required locks, so a rogue/someone with knock may be required, but never "rogue only",

[Crazyfruit]

Traps on elite used to one hit anyone. Good times.

96+% of the traps in this game can be avoided if you're not suffering from lag. If you practice a little on normal, you'll be able to get through them NP on elite without disabling or dying.

[kafrielveddicus]

I am going to assume you are talking about the Elite version of party crashers?

Do you have really bad lag, not sure how you are getting hit 3 times+

[redspecter23]

In 95% of cases, traps can be avoided if you don't have a rogue. In the situations where it's very difficult or impossible to avoid the trap and the damage is so high that it can kill you in one shot, then a hireling with raise can help out. Von3 is one of those situations where you just might die no matter what in the end room. Kinda cheesy that the trap deals so much damage but can't be avoided reliably or disarmed, but such is life. I don't think unavoidable and also un-disarmable traps should deal insane damage.

That being said, I have no issue with traps dealing high amounts of damage, but in the case of elite, the traps are so far beyond the damage that the mobs deal with melee and spell damage it just doesn't feel right somehow. Elite traps could probably be scaled back a bit, but I'd like to see mob damage scaled up to compensate.

[Shade]

In 95% of cases, traps can be avoided if you don't have a rogue. In the situations where it's very difficult or impossible to avoid the trap and the damage is so high that it can kill you in one shot, then a hireling with raise can help out. Von3 is one of those situations where you just might die no matter what in the end room. Kinda cheesy that the trap deals so much damage but can't be avoided reliably or disarmed, but such is life. I don't think unavoidable and also un-disarmable traps should deal insane damage.

That being said, I have no issue with traps dealing high amounts of damage, but in this case the traps are so far beyond the damage that the mobs deal with melee and spell damage it just doesn't feel right somehow. Elite traps could probably be scaled back a bit, but I'd like to see mob damage scaled up to compensate.

Stand in the very corner of the room near veil. It will only hit once there. Deals around 200-300 damage. At that lvl u should have 200+ hp, cast a protection from energy for -120, and its under 200 damage. Defintely survivable, by any class.

Its only deadly if you stand around the center, where it hits 2-3 times (400-600+ damage)

Still experimenting as well, but I bet there is a spot where you dont get hit at all like before, think they just moved it somewhere more tricky to find.

[Crazyfruit]

Stand in the very corner of the room near veil. It will only hit once there.

Awesome info Shade. That one scared me too much to do it on epic lately

[redspecter23]

Stand in the very corner of the room near veil. It will only hit once there. Deals around 200-300 damage. At that lvl u should have 200+ hp, cast a protection from energy for -120, and its under 200 damage. Defintely survivable, by any class.

Its only deadly if you stand around the center, where it hits 2-3 times (400-600+ damage)

Still experimenting as well, but I bet there is a spot where you dont get hit at all like before, think they just moved it somewhere more tricky to find.

In that case then, no problem. A bit of trial and error maybe, but that's fine as long as there is some way to get around it, whether it's to disarm it, avoid it, stand in it with high hp, whatever.

[Chai]

You should be having a HARDER time on elite, not an easier time. That quest was designed when FvS didnt exist, and alot of the lower level gear we use nowdays either didnt exist or was less available.

[Quarterling]

No.

Traps are good.

Traps must kill all.

That way... people will want more rogues.

Rogues are good.

Yes.

[Maitland]

Traps are overpowered,they must be nurfed.

Is there anything else that must be nurfed?
Am sure you can think of more than that

[Victorhammer]

Your solo'ing elite difficulty, and often succeeding.. Yet you think the problem is that you got killed by a trap?

.. Elite was never intended to be solo'd. Thats what casual/normal is for. The fact you can even do it on ANY quest either means you are very skilled and knowledable and doing something unexpected by the developers. Or the quests are too these days easy due to factors added after they were release (often the case, newer quests are often more difficult on elite to solo then older ones.)

Every trap on elite should ALWAYS 1 shot kill any solo player in all cases on a failed save. Whats redicules is to thnk otherwise.. It's elite, you failed to dodge the trap. Suck it up and try again, or give up and doing an easier difficulty.

No, despite the fact elite is meant to be difficult.. Not a single quest in the game features any traps that can stop a solo favored soul or any other class in the game. 99.9% of traps in the game can be navigated without being hit thru player skill alone. The 0.1% that can never do enough damage to 1 shot a player with reasonably good HP for the level (and yea you HP seems fine, you just are trying to zerg thru a physical trap without any skil and you failed and died. Dodge it next time, there are no phsyical traps at around that level that are undodgable. Only one I can think of that is undodgeable is the wizard king lever traps - which deal elemental damage you can easily survive with a protection from elements.

So no, rogues are never required to beat any quest in the game. Not elite, not epic. A couple have required locks, so a rogue/someone with knock may be required, but never "rogue only",

I agree with you view.

And to the op I add your view would be different if you played a rogue then you would be requesting harder traps
so you had something fun to do in quests to save the party.

[Sircowdog]

Your solo'ing elite difficulty, and often succeeding.. Yet you think the problem is that you got killed by a trap?

No, I think that the traps are hitting too hard. The penalty for failing to dodge or disarm the trap, or to bring a rogue, has a severity that is not in line with the rest of the difficulty of the quest. The problem lies specifically with the traps, but generally with the balance of elite difficulty.

Either turn down the damage on the traps, or turn up the rest of the quest so that elite is actually the realm for groups only, on par with quests that absolutely require multiple people for levers/buttons. Even then I wouldn't think its good design, in a game as variable as DDO, to force groups to bring a specific ability(in this case, trap disarming) in order to progress. Because then instead of allowing players to make choices, the game is forcing it on them.

Every trap on elite should ALWAYS 1 shot kill any solo player in all cases on a failed save.

I'm curious why you think this. I could understand if such traps could be avoided with a different type of penalty if you decided not to deal with them, such as additional enemies, less loot, being forced to take the long way around, or turning off the trap with some ridiculous puzzle, etc. Or if the ability to disable traps was available to every class of every build, similar to how deathblock/deathward is available to everyone to prevent instant death spells. In all honesty, a rogue hireling solves all of this. I'm not sure why Turbine has limited them to TP purchase only, since you can get every other style of hireling(and thus every other role) without spending TP.

No, despite the fact elite is meant to be difficult.. Not a single quest in the game features any traps that can stop a solo favored soul or any other class in the game. 99.9% of traps in the game can be navigated without being hit thru player skill alone. The 0.1% that can never do enough damage to 1 shot a player with reasonably good HP for the level (and yea you HP seems fine, you just are trying to zerg thru a physical trap without any skil and you failed and died. Dodge it next time, there are no phsyical traps at around that level that are undodgable. Only one I can think of that is undodgeable is the wizard king lever traps - which deal elemental damage you can easily survive with a protection from elements.

So no, rogues are never required to beat any quest in the game. Not elite, not epic. A couple have required locks, so a rogue/someone with knock may be required, but never "rogue only",

I don't want you to think that I'm outright disagreeing with you. In fact, I'm curious what you mean by 'dodging' traps. The first part of my reply is aimed mainly at game design theory and how I think DDO is failing in this one small area(the rest of the game is incredible!) But I'm also still learning alot about the game; trying to find out if there are other ways around the traps on elite.

You mentioned 'dodging' traps, can you explain the fundamentals of doing it? From what I've seen the network code of DDO is a bit off. Even with a ping under 100ms(averaging around 70) with no dropped packets I often see mobs warping, blade traps hitting me long after I've cleared them, etc. I've tried correctly timing my movements through them, inching forward to get them to go off when I'm out of range, and jumping over(this is the most successful).

And to the op I add your view would be different if you played a rogue then you would be requesting harder traps
so you had something fun to do in quests to save the party.

I've also wondered why trap locations aren't random. I understand it has something to do with the coding of the dungeons.

It sounds alot like a circular problem. If you want rogues to be useful and fun, traps have to super difficult. If traps are super difficult, you have to have rogues. The problem is that it makes people feel like they're forced to take a rogue instead of wanting them. A group should not require a rogue to 'save them', any more than they need any other class. That's my point in a nutshell.

[Stillwaters]

As several ppl stated above there are MANY ways to avoid/mitigate trap damage, Rogues are not there to bust your traps, they are a DPS class that get you BONUS xp if they CHOOSE to slow down and bust traps.

TRAPSMITHING is by NO MEANS a rogue only affair - its seems to be so since you need 1 level of rog to be effective, but that is it - QUITE often a WIZ with 1 splash of rogue is FAR better at killing traps, ALWAYS ASK!

Having a TRAPSMITH (as trapkilling only truly takes one levl of rogue to do well) is no more or less important than having someone who can HEAL, or someone that BUFFS. Yes you can do these missions without any help, the game is easy.

If you cant.. WOW!! you actually found yourself a challenge to meet - stop trying to nerf it, and learn to overcome it!

[Phidius]

...
You mentioned 'dodging' traps, can you explain the fundamentals of doing it? From what I've seen the network code of DDO is a bit off. Even with a ping under 100ms(averaging around 70) with no dropped packets I often see mobs warping, blade traps hitting me long after I've cleared them, etc. I've tried correctly timing my movements through them, inching forward to get them to go off when I'm out of range, and jumping over(this is the most successful).
...

Traps that move are dodgeable by not being in the same space as they are. The others cycle between active and inactive - for these, I start moving through them while they are still in the "shutting down" state. This provides enough time to get through before they start up again.

If you wait until they are entirely inactive, you will get hit by them before you can get out.

...
I've also wondered why trap locations aren't random. I understand it has something to do with the coding of the dungeons.
...

Some quests have quasi-random traps - if you run the quest enough, though, you get a feel for where they may or may not show up.

...
It sounds alot like a circular problem. If you want rogues to be useful and fun, traps have to super difficult. If traps are super difficult, you have to have rogues. The problem is that it makes people feel like they're forced to take a rogue instead of wanting them. A group should not require a rogue to 'save them', any more than they need any other class. That's my point in a nutshell.

Don't fall for the "trap" of thinking that rogues = traps. The rogue class brings much more to the table than their ability to disarm traps and open locked doors/chests.

[Rumbaar]

Yeah, I've been killed doing an elite L5 Syndicate run on my L20 Sorc. Buffed to the max, DR and stuff. The one with the items trapped. Take and then whole room electrical damage .. pingpingpingpingpingping ... ding!

Oh oops

[Kakashi67]

Yeah, I've been killed doing an elite L5 Syndicate run on my L20 Sorc. Buffed to the max, DR and stuff. The one with the items trapped. Take and then whole room electrical damage .. pingpingpingpingpingping ... ding!

Oh oops

THat was a recent change I believe. Even normal can be painful now.

[Stillwaters]

If so it is a change for the better, DnD is a TEAM game and imho adventures that can be run without ALL roles covered should be few and far between, considering the ill-will given to majority of rogues in endgame, this may keep them viable.

Maybe more player's toons will remember when they open up a high level adventure LFM, all the times a pinky squishy saved their behind, and give them a shot