Feedback: Barbarian 101 (Work-in-Progress)

[Emili]

The odd point into dex and wis seems a bit off to me. I think you were trying to point out those stats as "save" stats, but leaving them as odd is useless unless you get tomes. I personally would change it to be one or the other.

Int makes a lot of sense yet, odd points can actually be helpful in a high level barb if you can pump them to a point above 10. When you have silver flame pot access and layered a number of +2 tomes (far easier than +3s) because you're most likely not wearing six different stat items. An 11 in a stat will prevent you from a helpless state by drinking such a potion. May be the only benefit but is one.


It all comes down to when the player crosses the line into 32 point build or tr's into another race as for longevity of playing.

[dingal]

Howdy,

Below is an early version of the template for Barbarian 101. Written for newly-starting DDO free players, we've opted for a human Two Handed Fighter (THF) template with a 28pt build. The skill, feat and enhancement selections are designed to output solid damage with reasonable survivability (for a new player).

Is there a factual mistake somewhere that we haven't shaken out? Do you have suggestions on a more ideal skill, feat or enhancement progression? Please share!

Notes of Interest:

• Although human is what we're using for this template, we're currently discussing where to put other racial options like half-orc and warforged. It could be its own section or a bullet-point in the "Everything a Barbarian Should Know" section, or somewhere else entirely.

What to do: Give use constructive criticism and feedback!

What not to do: Derail Barbarian 101 feedback with off-topic posts or inflammatory comments.

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==Every New Barbarian Should Know …==

• (Got advice? Please share in a comment below!)

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==Template: Two Handed Human Barbarian==

If you're looking to create a melee powerhouse with little armor but lots of health (and even more damage output), this template is a great starting point!

===Ability Point Buy===

Human will be our base race for the extra feat and skills, and because humans make a solid base for practically any class in DDO.

• STR: 18
• DEX: 8
• CON: 16
• INT: 10
• WIS: 8
• CHA: 8

• Ability Point Buy: Point grants at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 all go to STR.

===Skills===

• Tumble: Invest two skill points into Tumble, a skill that comes in handy but cannot be used without 1 Rank trained.

• Balance: A barbarian is constantly on the frontlines of battle, so keep Balance maxed out at every level to ensure a speedy recovery upon a knockdown.

• Jump: Having 10 ranks in Jump is enough to get you across chasms and traps, especially with the help of Jump-enhancing spells and potions.

• Spot: A skill that's useful for its ability to help you detect hidden enemies. Invest any spare skill points here as you level.

• Use Magic Device (UMD): (Explanation Text Here.)

===Feat Order===

• 1) Toughness: Increases hit points by +3 at first level, and 1 additional hit point for each additional level. Also opens up Toughness enhancements, adding further hit point bonuses as you level up.

• 1) Two Handed Fighting (human bonus feat): Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10%. Also grants a 3% chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows. A glancing blow is a free, additional attack that only two-handed weapons are capable of doing.

• 3) Power Attack: Able to be toggled on and off, Power Attack mode trades up to 5 of your attack bonus for equal extra damage on melee attacks. Using a two-handed weapon in this build makes Power Attack mode more appealing: the feat offers double the bonus to damage when using two-handed weapons.

• 6) Cleave: Activate this ability to attack one or more enemies within a forward-facing arc.

• 9) Improved Critical: Slashing: This feat greatly increases the likelihood of your attacks dealing critical damage by increase the "critical threat range" of any slashing weapon you use. This means axes and swords, more or less – weapons that deal bludgeoning, piercing, ranged or thrown damage will not benefit from this feat.

• 12) Improved Two Handed Fighting: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks (See "Two Handed Fighting" feat above for more info) when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% on top of the Two Handed Fighting bonus. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3%.

• 15) Greater Two Handed Fighting: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by another 10% on top of the previous Two Handed Fighting feats. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3%. At this point, your barbarian will have a 50% total chance to produce glancing blows (the base is 20%).

• 18) Stunning Blow: (Explanation Text Here.)

==Enhancements==

The enhancements suggested in this section have been chosen to build upon the barbarian's damage-output and damage reduction traits.

All the enhancements below effectively upgrade the barbarian Rage ability, making it even more potent than the vanilla Rage. It's a long list: Extend Rage increases the Rage ability's duration, Extra Rage adds additional Rage uses between rests, Hardy Rage increases CON while Rage is active (adding more hit points) and Power Rage increases STR while Rage is active (adding more damage per attack).

Last but far from least, Frenzied Berserker adds to the damage multiplier on critical hits while raging, two-handed weapon glancing blows have a greater chance to add magical effects (such as flaming, etc), you may spend 10 hit points to use Supreme Cleave – and most importantly, you can spend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy (at rank III). Think of the frenzy (unlocked with Frenzied Berserker I) and Death Frenzy (Frenzied Berserker III) as an optional "Super Mega Ultra Rage" mode.

Simply put, these below enhancements transform a raging barbarian into stampeding death-machine.

• Barbarian Extend Rage I - III
• Barbarian Extra Rage I - III
• Barbarian Hardy Rage I - III
• Barbarian Power Rage I - IV
• Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I - III

Power Attack I – III will add additional damage at the cost of accuracy, although accuracy is not typically an issue facing barbarians due to their high strength, decent weapons, and good Base Attack Bonus.

• Barbarian Power Attack I - III

Gain an additional +1 Will save when raging, a useful bonus when going up against magically-inclined baddies.

• Barbarian Willpower I

A once-famous but now-unknown barbarian said, "More strength GOOD!" It's a wise saying that lives to this day among barbarian players in DDO.

• Human Adaptability Strength I

Barbarians rely on hit points and damage reduction to survive what few attacks their enemies land – ideally, a barbarian drops all opponents to the ground before they get a chance to attack. However, in the event a kobold or two slips past, it's a good idea to have extra hit points from these below enhancements.

• Racial Toughness I - II
• Barbarian Constitution I - II
• Barbarian Toughness I – III

Damage Reduction is a good idea for barbarians picking enhancements, because it will lower the amount of damage taken, and keep them alive longer!

• Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I - II

Damage Boost is an enhancement that does two things for a barbarian using this template: activate for increased damage, and meet the requirements for Frenzied Berserker. See the beginning portion of this section to learn more about Frenzied Berserker and why any barbarian worth their salt wants to be one.

• Barbarian Damage Boost I - IV

This is a capstone enhancement, meaning a player must take 20 levels of barbarian to obtain it – but it's worth the investment. A barbarian who takes Barbarian Might receives +2 STR, and when wielding two-handed weapons receive increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows. By the capstone point in DDO magically-infused weapons are something of a regularity, and Barbarian Might – combined with other elements of this template – ensures their magical effects occur as frequently as possible.

• Capstone: Barbarian Might

Imo investing any points into UMD on a barb is worthless. Anything you need to UMD is usually available as a clicky and in addition to that intimidate is a much more valuable contribution to a group.

Maybe that's more advanced play but I'm sticking to my comment on UMD.

Also, stunning blow without quickdraw is pretty awful now. WIth helplessness changes and the need for even very high str barbarians to use a weighted weapon it's simply not worth it even with quickdraw. Without you're very likely losing DPS trying to switch weapons or using an inferior weapons.

I'd use the extra feat for an additional toughness or charisma skills to boost intimidate.

Barbarian Improved Intimidate is where the magic happens. -2 debuff to intimidated enemies. Teach players to benefit the group earlier in these 101 guides and they will be better players later on.

[oradafu]

As others have pointed out, some information about the inability to use many potions (unless it's a Guild potion) and most clickies when raged is pretty important.

Also, every Barbarian, except WF, needs to carry Lesser Restoration potions to prevent fatigue when their rage needs.

There should be something about CON being tied to the length of time that Rage lasts.

Perhaps a small section about Healing Amp being useful for Barbarians.

[Noelemahc]

Additionally, this is of course my opinion and feedback would be appreciated, but many of the Barbarians I play with at endgame find no use in the Two-Handed Fighting feats. The glancing blow damage isn't worth investing 3 feats to obtain and many players often forego this feat line for Toughness feats. I agree with the aforementioned lack of use in Great Cleave as well.

Those are the less successful and more inexperienced barbs. Glancing blows are a huge portion of your damage. Granted, the 3rd feat is less important if you're always twitching (not many people can do it right at all, and definitely wouldn't expect beginners to be able to or even know what it is), 30% extra damage on glancing blows is nothing to scoff at. Saying the two-handed feats aren't worth it is exactly like saying the two-weapon feats aren't worth it.

When you are swinging for 110+ damage a swing, that's an extra 33 damage on glancing blows 3/4 swings (glancing blows are normally 20% damage and only proc 2/4 swings). So that's an average increase of 24.75 damage/swing. Granted, it will be a little lower when first starting out and not epic geared out yet, but still in the ballpark of an average of 20 damage/swing. That's a lot of damage that adds up fast. Especially when people kill themselves over gear sets that just add 2 damage, epic marilith chain that only adds another +4 seeker, or epic abishai set that only has a net gain of 1 str over a "normal" epic geared barb (which is a totally different discussion... I think abishai set is stupid on a melee for such a small and otherwise unnoticeable gain), it's kind of silly to say that such a large increase in damage isn't worth it.

I have 1 toughness feat and don't have any of the toughness enhancements, and still hit 800 hp on a non-tr. That's more than well enough to tank even elite ToD. I'm also missing about 100 hp in gear too. Honestly taking more toughness feats not only isn't needed, but definitely not worth losing that extra dps from not taking the two handed feats. Glancing blows are a very underrated form of damage, and is definitely the difference between an average barb, and a great one (even twitchers get glancing blows still).

[supp3nhuhn]

In skills you really need intimidate for barbs, barbarian intimidation is a nice effect and shouldn't be ignored in a 101.

I'd rather see listen than spot on that list because it is weird to take the off class skill if you have another very similar one that is a class skill. Unless you have search there is no benefit to spot over listen.

You probably should loose umd, it has only very limited use on a pure barb, if you want to keep it at least mention human versatility in the enhancement section because it does have a skill boost among other boosts.

If you take human as race you should get human healing amp, with the lack of usefulness stunning blow has as of late it is pretty much the only thing going for that race on a pure barb.

[dingal]

Those are the less successful and more inexperienced barbs. Glancing blows are a huge portion of your damage. Granted, the 3rd feat is less important if you're always twitching (not many people can do it right at all, and definitely wouldn't expect beginners to be able to or even know what it is), 30% extra damage on glancing blows is nothing to scoff at. Saying the two-handed feats aren't worth it is exactly like saying the two-weapon feats aren't worth it.

When you are swinging for 110+ damage a swing, that's an extra 33 damage on glancing blows 3/4 swings (glancing blows are normally 20% damage and only proc 2/4 swings). So that's an average increase of 24.75 damage/swing. Granted, it will be a little lower when first starting out and not epic geared out yet, but still in the ballpark of an average of 20 damage/swing. That's a lot of damage that adds up fast. Especially when people kill themselves over gear sets that just add 2 damage, epic marilith chain that only adds another +4 seeker, or epic abishai set that only has a net gain of 1 str over a "normal" epic geared barb (which is a totally different discussion... I think abishai set is stupid on a melee for such a small and otherwise unnoticeable gain), it's kind of silly to say that such a large increase in damage isn't worth it.

I have 1 toughness feat and don't have any of the toughness enhancements, and still hit 800 hp on a non-tr. That's more than well enough to tank even elite ToD. I'm also missing about 100 hp in gear too. Honestly taking more toughness feats not only isn't needed, but definitely not worth losing that extra dps from not taking the two handed feats. Glancing blows are a very underrated form of damage, and is definitely the difference between an average barb, and a great one (even twitchers get glancing blows still).

Absolutely 100% correct. Glancing blows are huge. A capped barb is better off with the full line + capstone + spacebar twitching than attack chain twitching and now with supreme cleave being useful the dps output of glancing blows is insane.

Not to be ignored.

Toughness is also unnecessary for a geared barb. An undergeared barb should definitely have it. Once you get geared up 780-800hp and good healing amp will get you through any content.

[FordyTwo]

Howdy all,

A big thanks to you all for the great feedback! Looking over the discussion, I agree that dwarf makes a very strong argument for a free player opting for the barbarian class. Additionally, with the contention on UMD for the purposes of a 101 guide, I'll be reevaluating it as I go through and make other changes based on the feat, skill and enhancement feedback.

The mention of premium races and their usefulness for the barbarian class was something that Tolero and I discussed when beginning this guide- and we agreed that it's a good idea. This will be in a section before the actual template, but I'll make sure there's a mention (or call-back) to it for any new players skimming through the guide.

Again, thanks for the continued feedback!

[SisAmethyst]

...

I'd rather see listen than spot on that list because it is weird to take the off class skill if you have another very similar one that is a class skill. Unless you have search there is no benefit to spot over listen.

You probably should loose umd, it has only very limited use on a pure barb, if you want to keep it at least mention human versatility in the enhancement section because it does have a skill boost among other boosts.

If you take human as race you should get human healing amp, with the lack of usefulness stunning blow has as of late it is pretty much the only thing going for that race on a pure barb.

While it may sound wired to take an off-class skill I guess that is exactly the reason for a 101 guide to show the non obvious. Only because it was written in the core books that listen is a class skill doesn't mean other skills may not perform better.

I agree with other posters that UMD is much to difficult for a first timer to bump to 20. We shouldn't forget that a first time player even not get the +1 Firetouch Veteran weapon. Heck they even may give away by mistake or because they want to be polite something like a Carniflex as they just don't know this item.

Maybe because of I loved to play my human paladin I really like healing amplification. But even from a logical standpoint I see a huge advantage for it as a Barb is a massive pile of HP and like WF should take healers friend it makes the healers life much easier to top this HP back up.

[Monkey_Archer]

Feats:
Toughness - Not at level1. Yes its a good feat.. But not a good feat for the highest HP in game the class at lvl1, when it only gives 3 hp.. Just has no real major impact. Bbns get enough HP without it, adding more may allow for sloppier play, but a new player should be encouraged to play better, not rely on gobs of HP.
Recommend moving it to 18 (Swap in stunning blow - A MASSIVELY more helpful feat at low lvl, especially useful for newer players learning the active combat style of ddo)

Recommended feat progression:
1. THF
1. Stunning blow (Human Bonus)
3. Power Attack
6. Cleave
9. Improve Critical: Slash
12. ITHF
15. GTHF
18. Toughness

I strongly agree with encouraging newer players to learn active combat as early as possible. However, cleave is infinitely more useful then stunning blow at level 3 since you will be killing mobs with one shot more often then not on lower difficulties.

For a newer player, I'd reccommend toughness before THF. The damage added from THF is just way too minor compared to the added survivability of an 20,30,40+ hp at low levels. The real benefit of the THF chain is gained at tier 3, and even then its just a bit of extra damage, and will be barely noticeable for a newer player (compared to the extra damage from cleave or stunning blow). Overall, stunning, cleaving and staying alive is just more entertaining then an extra couple of damage on glancing blows

I'd do the following:
1) Toughness
1) Power attack
3) Cleave
6) Stunning blow
9) Improved critical
12) THF
15) ITHF
18) GTHF

[dingal]

I strongly agree with encouraging newer players to learn active combat as early as possible. However, cleave is infinitely more useful then stunning blow at level 3 since you will be killing mobs with one shot more often then not on lower difficulties.

For a newer player, I'd reccommend toughness before THF. The damage added from THF is just way too minor compared to the added survivability of an 20,30,40+ hp at low levels. The real benefit of the THF chain is gained at tier 3, and even then its just a bit of extra damage, and will be barely noticeable for a newer player (compared to the extra damage from cleave or stunning blow). Overall, stunning, cleaving and staying alive is just more entertaining then an extra couple of damage on glancing blows

I'd do the following:
1) Toughness
1) Power attack
3) Cleave
6) Stunning blow
9) Improved critical
12) THF
15) ITHF
18) GTHF

I tend to agree with Shade, that toughness is not critical at lower levels however it does unlock enhancements which do add a more significant number of HP.

I could go either way on this one.

[TheDjinnFor]

Toughness - Not at level1. Yes its a good feat.. But not a good feat for the highest HP in game the class at lvl1, when it only gives 3 hp.. Just has no real major impact. Bbns get enough HP without it, adding more may allow for sloppier play, but a new player should be encouraged to play better, not rely on gobs of HP.

Toughness gets you 13 hp at level 1, 25 hp at level 3, 36 hp at level 4, 48 hp at level 6, etc. due to racial and class-based toughness enhancements. Contrast this with the benefits of getting GTHF at level 15 instead of 18.

[dingal]

Toughness gets you 13 hp at level 1, 25 hp at level 3, 36 hp at level 4, 48 hp at level 6, etc. due to racial and class-based toughness enhancements. Contrast this with the benefits of getting GTHF at level 15 instead of 18.

I'm putting on my "New player Goggles" so I can get a better view of what life is like when you don't know the game as well and you're right, those HP are invaluable.

[dingal]

Howdy all,

A big thanks to you all for the great feedback! Looking over the discussion, I agree that dwarf makes a very strong argument for a free player opting for the barbarian class. Additionally, with the contention on UMD for the purposes of a 101 guide, I'll be reevaluating it as I go through and make other changes based on the feat, skill and enhancement feedback.

The mention of premium races and their usefulness for the barbarian class was something that Tolero and I discussed when beginning this guide- and we agreed that it's a good idea. This will be in a section before the actual template, but I'll make sure there's a mention (or call-back) to it for any new players skimming through the guide.

Again, thanks for the continued feedback!

It might also be worth mentioning some of the gear a barbarian might seek out. This can be both named and non-named items. Weapon choice for me has change somewhat due to helplessness changes. I would no longer select a Greataxe as my primary weapon for instance.

What weapons should every barbarian carry?

1. A Maul that breaks /good DR - This is very important for newer players as they are likely to be running into undead mobs at lower levels
2. A Falchion or Greataxe, preferably a pure good or holy or even keen for general purposes

Armor Selection:
For newer players AC is your friend! Just because everyone likes to say AC is meaningless that doesn't make it true. AC is very relevant at lower levels even for barbarians. With a combination of a decent medium or light armor and a barkskin spell or potion it is very easy for a barb to maintain a mid to high 20's AC even while raged.

This will mitigate a TON of damage up until around levels 10-12ish when they start venturing into some of the more challenging content.

I cannot stress enough how helpful AC can be for newer players and it does not need to be at the cost of DPS or versatility in any way. When I TR or run lower level characters I always try to maintain a 25-30 AC at least until GH and for many of the early quests that makes you nearly unhittable.

That said - Newer characters should seek out medium to light armor that enables them to maximize the total value of their dexterity bonus and whenever possible seek out Mithral Chain, Mithral Breastplate, Mithral Fullplate etc. All good selections, readily available and typically pretty inexpensive.

[TheHolyDarkness]

As of your current draft, there appears to be a oversight concerning the intimidate skill.

Encourage the new player to max it out (along with balance) for the sake of protecting the party. Barbarians get 4 skill points per level, and this template gets an additional +1 for being human. It can afford it. But if I'm new, I may need an explanation as to why its important.

Personally, since the nooby is getting 4 skill points even if he dumps int, I'd drop int and put it into dex for the reflex save.

~~

Speaking of reflex, please make sure that the neophyte reading this guide does not underestimate the value of Uncanny Dodge.

For all their HP, poor reflex saves can instantly kill a barbarian in scenarios where a monk would walk free. Passing your save via Uncanny Dodge for half damage can make or break you in that moment.

Easy anecdote: poor reflex seems the number one cause of death among neophyte barbarians in the Shroud, occurring when Harry casts Meteor Swarm and they fail all 4 saves in a row, dying instantly.

My barbarian on the other hand would keep on chugging since I only got hit for half, having achieved a reasonable +28 Reflex with a +6 dex item, GH, and Uncanny Dodge. With my dumped dexterity, much of what makes my reflex functional is owed to the Dodge.

I recommend giving it a special mention. Explain the importance of reflex saves, how barbarians are passively weak in this area, and how the Uncanny Dodge feat is the intended solution for this handicap.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[FordyTwo]

Just a quick reminder, everyone: Historically, we've kept gear out of the 101 guides to avoid inundating new players with too much information. Once a 101 guide is live, we do encourage anyone interested in adding suggestions or advice (on gear or otherwise) in the comments section.

[dingal]

Just a quick reminder, everyone: Historically, we've kept gear out of the 101 guides to avoid inundating new players with too much information. Once a 101 guide is live, we do encourage anyone interested in adding suggestions or advice (on gear or otherwise) in the comments section.

Fair enough

[FordyTwo]

I've updated the original post with the new dwarf THF template. Please feel free to continue feedback, as this is still a work-in-progress.

[TheDjinnFor]

Dwarf will be our racial choice for the +2 Constitution (CON) and various defensive bonuses.

• STR: 18
• DEX: 14
• CON: 16
• INT: 8
• WIS: 8
• CHA: 8

Cha is actually 6, not 8, since you're a dwarf (dwarves get +2 starting con, -2 starting cha).

I see my recommendations have been popular for many of the 101 guides .

[FordyTwo]

Cha is actually 6, not 8, since you're a dwarf (dwarves get +2 starting con, -2 starting cha).

Fixed the typo!

*hands TheDjinnFor a critical-cookie*

[TheDjinnFor]

I remember I had changes to offer to your original feat list but I forgot to include them. Here they are:

• 1) Toughness: This feat adds survivability by increasing hit points by +3 at level one, and +1 hit point for each additional level. More importantly, Toughness opens up "Toughness Enhancements," opening the way to further hit point bonuses as you earn Enhancement points.

• 3) Power Attack: Able to be toggled on and off, Power Attack mode trades up to 5 of your attack bonus for equal extra damage on melee attacks. Using a two-handed weapon in this build makes Power Attack mode more appealing: the feat offers double bonus damage when using two-handed weapons.

• 6) Cleave: Activate this ability to attack one or more enemies within a forward-facing arc. Cleave is required to unlock the Frenzied Berserker prestige enhancement (see Enhancements, below).

• 9) Improved Critical: Slashing: This feat doubles the likelihood of your attacks dealing critical damage by increasing the "critical threat range" of any slashing weapon you use. This means axes and swords, more or less – ranged weapons that are thrown or shot, and weapons that deal bludgeoning or piercing damage, will not benefit from this feat.

• 12) Two Handed Fighting (human bonus feat): Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10%. Also grants a 3% chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows. A glancing blow is a free, additional attack that only two-handed weapons are capable of doing that applies to two out of every four attacks you make while standing still.

• 15) Improved Two Handed Fighting: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks (See "Two Handed Fighting" feat above for more info) when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% on top of the Two Handed Fighting bonus. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3%.

• 18) Greater Two Handed Fighting: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by another 10% on top of the previous Two Handed Fighting feats, and applies these glancing blows on more of your regular attacks. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3%. At this point, your barbarian's glancing blows will do 50% of the base damage of your regular attacks (the regular amount is 20%), with a 9% chance of triggering special weapon effects, and will apply on three out of every four attacks.

Optionally, grab Stunning Blow at level 1 (but remember you'll lose the extra Toughness enhancement line):

• Stunning Blow: This potent feat allows you to stun enemies for 6 seconds and increase all the damage they take from you and your allies by 50% for the duration of the effect. Having higher strength increases the chances of a success.

My recommended changes in green. Note also the space between Greater Two Handed Fighting and the prelude to Stunning Blow, the lack of which confused me at first when I saw it.