My opinion about the balance between fvs and clerics

[Koechophe]

From what you are saying, I believe I made the wrong impression. I DO NOT think clerics are gimped, I DO NOT think fvs are overpowered, I just think the balance between the two is off. I also think there definetly needs to be more light damaging spells, thus allowing clerics to utalize their bonus from Rs better. And I think that the advantedges of fvs outweigh the advantages of cleric in almost every way. For example, (and yes, I have read the pre of rs, forgot to mention the heal 75%, which is a big plus) a fvs could get all the heal/buff spells they could and spam mass heals/cures with emp. healing on and do just as good as an rs, mainly because they could spam them due to higher sp. Sure clerics have an edge in melee, but melee is not as effective as spells, and clerics just dont do as good at all in spells. Turning becomes more volatile as the undead get godly saves against it, and the main usefull ability from it is the aura. So I would say that if a fvs tried to be a healbot, they could do it just as well as a cleric. If a fvs tried to be a spellcaster, they could do it better than a cleric. They also can be a larger help to the party due to their auras and their pre. They also get the ability with wings that helps a lot in kiting with spells and esencially surviving. The lack of spell slots and getting spells one level later isnt really that big a deal. Plus they get dr, resistances and a better past life feat. I believe that they should make more spells (Particularly light, because rs have a bonus to them) Or else gimp fvs in some way, so that the downsides of fvs would become more monumental then they are now.

[HonricArgent]

Wait, I'm confused.

There are clerics who use their Turn Undeads for actually Turning Undead? That seems to be the basis on which you are dismissing this particular class ability.

I was under the impression that we were living in 2011. Auras and bursts are waaaaaay more powerful than you think they are. Used properly, it doesnt matter how much sp a FvS has vs a Cleric... because the Cleric doesnt have to USE sp.

[Jitty]

I DO NOT think clerics are gimped, I DO NOT think fvs are overpowered... I think that the advantedges of fvs outweigh the advantages of cleric in almost every way.

come again?

[Soleran]

I was under the impression that we were living in 2011. Auras and bursts are waaaaaay more powerful than you think they are. Used properly, it doesnt matter how much sp a FvS has vs a Cleric... because the Cleric doesnt have to USE sp.

When it comes to healing content being more "powerful" has limited effectiveness since as long as the encounter can be healed through it doesn't matter how's its being done. Since both clerics and fvs have been doing that for ages now I don't really see that as an ability to leverage power of a class atm since no content requires either specific class.

That being said the FVS does have more advantages over the cleric in solo ability at 20(epics, amrath etc) assuming same gear and the FVS now with it's pre is more effective at dealing magic damage then clerics and that is where the larger sp pool becomes more relevant in conjunction with more powerful damaging spells.

Clerics do allow greater versatility to class splits and designs with more divine spell slots so pick your poison based on that.

[Vyrn]

Oh, as a final point. Having more max SP is about as relevant as usually over-healing with your main spells. I literally cant think of a situation where I cant run ahead of the party, get the aggro of everything and get SP back if needed. Ie any cleric could do this and have more than enough SP for anything, even excluding clickys.

[AtomicMew]

Oh, as a final point. Having more max SP is about as relevant as usually over-healing with your main spells. I literally cant think of a situation where I cant run ahead of the party, get the aggro of everything and get SP back if needed. Ie any cleric could do this and have more than enough SP for anything, even excluding clickys.

So what you're saying is that bursts are useless since a cleric can just use SP?

[totalmir]

From what you are saying, I believe I made the wrong impression. I DO NOT think clerics are gimped, I DO NOT think fvs are overpowered, I just think the balance between the two is off. I also think there definetly needs to be more light damaging spells, thus allowing clerics to utalize their bonus from Rs better. And I think that the advantedges of fvs outweigh the advantages of cleric in almost every way. For example, (and yes, I have read the pre of rs, forgot to mention the heal 75%, which is a big plus) a fvs could get all the heal/buff spells they could and spam mass heals/cures with emp. healing on and do just as good as an rs, mainly because they could spam them due to higher sp. Sure clerics have an edge in melee, but melee is not as effective as spells, and clerics just dont do as good at all in spells. Turning becomes more volatile as the undead get godly saves against it, and the main usefull ability from it is the aura. So I would say that if a fvs tried to be a healbot, they could do it just as well as a cleric. If a fvs tried to be a spellcaster, they could do it better than a cleric. They also can be a larger help to the party due to their auras and their pre. They also get the ability with wings that helps a lot in kiting with spells and esencially surviving. The lack of spell slots and getting spells one level later isnt really that big a deal. Plus they get dr, resistances and a better past life feat. I believe that they should make more spells (Particularly light, because rs have a bonus to them) Or else gimp fvs in some way, so that the downsides of fvs would become more monumental then they are now.

Have you played both classes yourself?

[krackythehoodedone]

To add to your list or pro's & Con's

You missed out Radiant Servant..This is probably the single most powerful thing that addressed the in-balance
that you speak of.

I was literally going to Tr my Cleric into a FVS

Other smaller point i play a Clonk and the Symbiosis of CL/Monk is much better than with FVS

[Vyrn]

So what you're saying is that bursts are useless since a cleric can just use SP?

Dont put words in my mouth. I didnt say that at all.

[AtomicMew]

Dont put words in my mouth. I didnt say that at all.

But that's exactly what you did. You tried to downplay the FvS' huge SP advantage by saying that clerics "have more than enough SP for anything, even excluding clickys" [sic].

Okay, ignoring the fact that your statement on SP is, lightly put, a total lie, it follows directly that radiant bursts, (which in reality is one of the biggest assets of the radiant servant) is by YOUR logic, a redundant ability since you should "have more than enough SP for anything." And since "anything" is a superset of "mass cures", you should have more than enough SP to just use mass cures and not even bother with burst.

[Vyrn]

But that's exactly what you did. You tried to downplay the FvS' huge SP advantage by saying that clerics "have more than enough SP for anything, even excluding clickys" [sic].

Okay, ignoring the fact that your statement on SP is, lightly put, a total lie, it follows directly that radiant bursts, (which in reality is one of the biggest assets of the radiant servant) is by YOUR logic, a redundant ability since you should "have more than enough SP for anything." And since "anything" is a superset of "mass cures", you should have more than enough SP to just use mass cures and not even bother with burst.

The advantage isnt huge, at all. Perhaps you should read my posts. Bursts conserve SP, so I could be offensive even more. Dont twist my words.

And, yes, I do have more than enough SP for everything on my cleric, I constantly insta-kill casters, use implosion practically the second its off cool down and throw on a symbol of death when needed. Also DoT the bosses. Im not understanding where I could be more offensive, since I have more than enough SP to do all this in any quest you care to name.

[Thvari]

I was going to comment but I don't have the time.

Al I can say, CLERICS ARE NOT GIMPS.

These threads are coming about once every 2 weeks.

^
^
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This right there...stone cold truth.

Virtual +1 because I already gave you one some where else.

[AtomicMew]

The advantage isnt huge, at all. Perhaps you should read my posts. Bursts conserve SP, so I could be offensive even more. Dont twist my words.

I'm not sure how you can say the advantage isn't huge. FvS have nearly TWICE as much SP as clerics. If you count bursts as equivalent to a mass heal, FvS is STILL ahead by quite a decent margin.

And, yes, I do have more than enough SP for everything on my cleric, I constantly insta-kill casters, use implosion practically the second its off cool down and throw on a symbol of death when needed. Also DoT the bosses. Im not understanding where I could be more offensive, since I have more than enough SP to do all this in any quest you care to name.

epic chains.

The overall point here is that capacity IS important and it's BS to say that it isn't, de facto. And unless you build a healbot-cleric, FvS wins hands down.

[Vyrn]

I'm not sure how you can say the advantage isn't huge. FvS have nearly TWICE as much SP as clerics. If you count bursts as equivalent to a mass heal, FvS is STILL ahead by quite a decent margin.


epic chains.

The overall point here is that capacity IS important and it's BS to say that it isn't, de facto. And unless you build a healbot-cleric, FvS wins hands down.

I have 2.1k SP, FVS have about 3k. I dont know what kind of math youre doing here. I count burst as equivalent to a mass cure mod, clerics have more effective SP using burst = cure mod.

Edit - Oh, Im a 18/2 clr/mnk, a pure cleric would have more.

[tgu]

I don't know how much more I could disagree with some of what you said.

My Melee WF FvS can barely keep himself alive with his own heals, his DPS is average for a melee. He's the annoying "I'm DPS not a Healer" ass that joins your run just to tick you off. He'll be in the middle of kill counts, but honestly, I've solo healed most quest with my Paladin better than with this guy. He doesn't take damage though. He sucked leveling up too.

I don't see how that is true. Get the healing amp, devotion, and a WF can do relatively close as much healing. The DPS is going to top notch for a FvS, and a good battle fighter knows how to DPS AND heal. The fact you can even say a paladin can outheal a FvS is a joke. I hope this was a moment where you were wishing your paladin was better.

My Paladin honestly heals better than he does. He's a gimp though, Built FOR healing. First or second toon I ever built. He's also sword and board. Or at least was. Dropped that for empower healing. So, not as gimp (how sad, was able to drop shield mastery, FOR EMPOWER HEAL, on a paladin and he's LESS GIMP). Anyway, he's here for reference only, his DPS isn't as good as the FvS by a long shot. But, yeah, he can heal better...

Even a warchanter BARD will outheal your paladin, let's not even factor in a spellsinger. FvS has stronger heals, more SP, better group heals (later on). This is at ALL levels, not just some. You seriously expect people to believe you when you say a paladin is a better healer then a divine caster? What next, paladins outdamage barbarians, fighters? Come on!

And finally, my Battle Cleric. He outheals everyone, his DPS out DPS's the WF FvS, maybe even the evoker on a case by case basis, and is tougher than all of them. He's also my main, and the only one with past lives, and the only one with 6 or seven GS items... BUT ROCKS.

So, my opinion is, they all are better than melees, non SP characters. So don't really care which is better, as long as they are all better than rangers, rogues, and fighters.

"Outhealing" people doesn't matter. It is about keeping your group alive, nothing more. His DPS will only be a small shade better then WF, and Evoker should be ahead in almost every circumstance with a powerful PrE.

For anyone reading this thread - I feel this is wrong. I have never seen ANYONE give this kind of advice (look up paladin healing if you want to), and I hope it is never repeated. Paladins don't outheal anything, WF FvS is going to match that Half-Orc Battlecleric, and both classes are just fine.

PLUS MUTHA FRIGGIN 1 SIR.

That is all.

ok.. one more thing: The Pally comments gave me a good chuckle.

Plus one for what? Do tell. I would think negative one would be better suited, but people are entitled to their opinions.

[Meat-Head]

<snip>
Plus one for what? Do tell. I would think negative one would be better suited, but people are entitled to their opinions.

Mostly for this:

So, my opinion is, they all are better than melees, non SP characters. So don't really care which is better, as long as they are all better than rangers, rogues, and fighters.

Although, as I stated, the pally comment was dang funny as even HE indicates. Of course a bard can outheal a pally. But it was funny.


I'm starting to think that Horc BC v WF FVS is this:

Cleric > FVS in DPS

FVS > Cleric in Reflex save
FVS > Cleric in SP pool
FVS > Cleric in mobility
FVS > Cleric in HPS (most likely but depends on build)


When it comes to the MELEE comparison, this is what I see. It's a trade. Neither is out of balance in my opinion.

But when you consider a cleric can stand with melee with torc and con-opp, then the SP issue becomes close to a non-issue.

For MELEE, I see cleric better here. But that's me.

If you want to FOCUS on casting, you ought to be a FVS with a 2 monk for water stance or something.

Both heal fine.

[IWZincedge]

Okay, now let's try all that math again without the condescension and the insults. That goes for everyone.

[Vyrn]

Let me guess: you're adding in the costs for double empower, maximized and quicken metas as well? That makes me lol in real life. To any honest person, burst is CLEARLY not worth ~95 SP, given the additional targeting limitation.

Giving burst = 60 SP (mass heal) is already very, very generous considering that 95% of clerics in shroud don't even stand in the fray with the rest of the melee anyway.

1) I said 90 in my first post, not 95
2) Its 80 with JUST max/emp heal/quick on.

14 turns, now, leaves about 10 for burstin. So 800 there. With regen I can easily easily get more than 2 more bursts and have more SP than an fvs. With 1 every 2 mins, and most quests lasting longer than 4mins, we can get more than 2 turns over the course of the quest, the extra turns go into aura.

I have 2.1k as a 18/2, FvS get about 3k non melee. 3k is not twice of 2.1k, or even nearly so.

[AtomicMew]

Vyrn,

You chose one biased example by comparing a wisdom-based cleric to a FvS. Even in this example, the FvS has a significant lead. But how about comparing a heavily splashed battle cleric that some people have been toting in this thread? The reason I said "nearly twice", not "somewhere between 20%-100% more" was due to me not thinking anyone would be so silly as to attempt to be pedantic.

I stated that burst = 60 SP, not 90 or even 80. 60 SP is very, very generous. Also, if you're going to factor in turn regeneration, how about factoring in free CLW regeneration? Again, this shifts the balance heavily in favor in the FvS.


Edited to remove addressing deleted post

[erikbozelie]

an focussed cleric could get up to what? 28 bursts

base = 3
40 charisma = 15
extra turning = 4
enhancements = 4
item = 2

not a lot of clerics would have that though.

AtomicMew and Vyrn, would you mind putting out some numbers on this? i always used 70. never bothered looking it up.
think fvs would have problems with healing negative levels somewhere. ( greate restoration level 7, they only got 3 spell slots).

so it counts as an greater restoration mass.
and an quickened maximized empowered(x2)(heighten?, or no save?)cure critical mass combined?

... and getting rid of stat damage?

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worsed case scenario: 28 * 60 = 1680.
im thinking of rolling an 17 cleric / 2 fvs / 1 soc charisma based builds .