My opinion about the balance between fvs and clerics

[Koechophe]

Ok, so I understand that this game is a premium game and many of the items and adventures bought are supposed to be better than the ones available to all, but generally I thought there was supposed to exist a balance between classes, in terms of uses and power.

This post is dedicated to how I believe that clerics are completely gimped in comparison to fvs, and basically should have some form of a perk over them.

Going over this, think of the pros and cons to fvs and cleric.

Fvs:
Pros: much more sp
Pre that allows for better offensive fighting and casting
Better melee capability
natural resistances
Speed burst via wings
Ends up with all the spells clerics can have
Cons:
Not as many spell slots
spells one level earlier
No turn undead

Clerics
Pros: turn undead
more spell slots
spells one level earlier
Cons: not as much sp. Not nearly
Pre not nearly as usefull
Cannot successfully offensive cast due to lack of sp and
not as much power


Basically, one things stands out. Aside from turning dead, Fvs make better healbots due to sp, better melee due to the pre and their enhancments, better buffbots due to high sp, better offensive casters due to the pre and the sp and they get a better capstone, better past life feat and better perks from the religeons

The only comparison I can think of between the two is like sorc to wis. However, with that, wizards have 2 pres that actually play towards what a wizard is good at, versitility. They get pm, which allows self heals and slas that reduce the cost of spell casting by allowing you to fill damage with them and use sp for other things. They get archmage, which allows them to have higher dcs, higher sp and free usage of spells from certain schools. Clerics pre is focused on turning the undead (the one perk of clerics) and healbotting, which fvs can do better. Vs fvs, which be better healbots, simply because of increased sp. Clerics are supposed to be more versitile, but the lack of sp means they cant do more than one thing. The lack of feats plus emp healing required means they cant afford to put to much into being a good melee, and they dont have the racial toughnesses to back it up. Vs fvs, who have enough sp to be versitile, who have a pre that allows them to offensive cast better and a pre that is a HUGE asset to a party and to themselves.

Now, those are my opinions

I also have an opinion about the divine spells themselves. The divine spells seem incomplete. There is the necromancy and negative energy, which has spells to fill its catagory, but all other damage types dont. For instance, light. With light, you have 2 rays that loses usage at level 7 ish, you have 2 aoes, one which dies with searing light and the other which only works against undead and ooze and that you get level 17, You have 1 dot, which is the ONLY decent light spell out there for general damage. And theres a whole enhancment line around it. Vs fire damage, which has flame storm, flame strike, symbol of flame. The first two are more usefull than most forms of light damge. Then you have vague damge like cometfall and bb. Both of which are again, some of the only usefull damaging spells. They give clerics an enhancment line around light, and they turn around and make every spell from it bar one suck. Then they're good damage, which they give 1 spell to and make a whole item bonus for. That makes sense. I think they should add more light spells. They made radiant servent partly for light damage. That part of the pre is useless due to the lack of light damage spells.

And with pres, clerics should have a pre that adds to their versitility, or adds more functions to their turn undead, which the best function of turn undead is in fact turn undead. The heal aura does precious little since no one bothers to stay in it, and its healing is not enough to make much of a difference.

Either the pre, or fvs should get a gimp. Because aside from turning undead, fvs are better at everything in comparison to clerics. Just my two sense. I want to hear other peoples suggestions, and more than likely, tell me that I am wrong and should die in a hole.

Well, comment!
Sincerely, koechophe

[DoctorWhofan]

I was going to comment but I don't have the time.

Al I can say, CLERICS ARE NOT GIMPS.

These threads are coming about once every 2 weeks.

[AtomicMew]

Al I can say, CLERICS ARE NOT GIMPS.

No one is saying that clerics are gimp.

These threads are coming about once every 2 weeks.

Maybe that should tell you something. Many people say that FvS are better than clerics. Many people say that they are different, but equal. No one says that clerics are better than FvS.

[Franke]

Personally I find my clerics are far superior healers then my Fvs. I keep to the centre of the group as much as possible,shield blocking when the heavens fall,drop holy aura if no sphere / holds or implosion otherwise. Radiant servant is a great pre that outweighs the spell point difference imo.

But then each to his own

[TheHolyDarkness]

...

Clerics
...
Pre not nearly as usefull

...

See we can end it right there. You just completely, and I mean utterly, ignore the usefulness of the Radiant Servant aura, and how their Emp Healing boost is by 75% instead of 50%. You give me the impression you didn't even take a curtsey glance at the cleric prestige.

Spoken from someone with both a FvS and Cleric.
~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Jiirix]

If you are a player that don't know what half of the divine spells acutally do and don't know when to cast them you wont have any advantage from the more spellslots clerics have. But IF you know how and when to use them those more spellslots can make a hughe difference. The Radinat Servant pre is one of the best out there. A free 25% boost to all heals, nearly infinite pasive area healing and the healing burst that restores stat effects also. Turn undead can be very powerful too. I turned the giant skellies in gianthold, the rednamed mummies in wizking and the rednamed rares in the orchard becoming a tapestry machine. And even in epics a good turn undead kills the trash in epic wizking.

Of course I would like to see domanis, but seriously: Clerics with aditionl spellslots for haste or stoneskin? Clerics that turn elementals? Maybe that would be a little bit unbalanced?

[Lord_kNiels]

I agree that there could be some more light based spells for the divines to use.

However...

... I think you misunderstood the healing capability of the cleric completely.
The healing aura does a huge part of the healing including healing the cleric self at all times (when active of course and it should be at all times) leaving more focus on the rest of the party. Also do not underestimate the additional spell slots and how more versatile and correctly used buffs can reduce the need of healing in quests by a lot. Also the radiant servant boosts empower healing to 75% boost allowing weaker spells to become much stronger for the purpose of healing also making cure light or moderate wounds a viable option without the need to use maximize spell or empower spell saving spell points in those ways, effectively leaving the cleric with more spell points.

[Erekose]

Personally I find my clerics are far superior healers then my Fvs. I keep to the centre of the group as much as possible,shield blocking when the heavens fall,drop holy aura if no sphere / holds or implosion otherwise. Radiant servant is a great pre that outweighs the spell point difference imo.

But then each to his own

/signed

I run both pure cleric and fvs at lvl cap. Cleric radiant savant is by far better to heal with. As for dps, cleric get the same dot spell and can be specced for dps such as max str and having decent dps items/weapons, same as a fvs, minus some enhancements, but clerics are more versatile as they have more spells memorized, as for casting dps, can hot swap out gear to go nuke with BB or if you are dc based, plenty of instant kill options.

Tips.
1. Flexibility (its all about gear)
be prepared to hot swap out items if you going from pure healer mode to heal/dps or straight dps

2. Use radiant savant ability to heal save SP for offensive casting. I estimate my savant abilities save me around 1,000 SP per shrine

3. Ensure you plan your toon before rolling one.
HO 18 cleric 2 fighter is a real nice option with Mari chain, eSOS, max str & con with moderate wisdom and cha is a nice start.

[Skavenaps]

is more than clear that the OP never played a FvS.

FvS do more dmg no cause they have more sp, cause the only Pre they have, is the dps one, no as clerics, as they have a healing one.

Also, WIS for cleric mean sp and DC, that is not true for a FvS who need both.

[Aries1040]

plus if you go caster dps on a fvs you lose melee dps not all of it but its less and vise vs if you go melee dps you lose caster dps the healing is about the same either way on a fvs if you spec right and this game is more about gear then the class ive seen fvs with only 1800 sp at cap when others have 3000 and with the right gear sp isnt an issue anyways torc, con opp, bauble ,twisted talisman, ring of spell storing so there is no need to balance the 2 they are fine

[Vyrn]

Ok, so I understand that this game is a premium game and many of the items and adventures bought are supposed to be better than the ones available to all, but generally I thought there was supposed to exist a balance between classes, in terms of uses and power.

This post is dedicated to how I believe that clerics are completely gimped in comparison to fvs, and basically should have some form of a perk over them.

Going over this, think of the pros and cons to fvs and cleric.

Fvs:
Pros: much more sp
Pre that allows for better offensive fighting and casting
Better melee capability
natural resistances
Speed burst via wings
Ends up with all the spells clerics can have
Cons:
Not as many spell slots
spells one level earlier
No turn undead

Clerics
Pros: turn undead
more spell slots
spells one level earlier
Cons: not as much sp. Not nearly
Pre not nearly as usefull
Cannot successfully offensive cast due to lack of sp and
not as much power


Basically, one things stands out. Aside from turning dead, Fvs make better healbots due to sp, better melee due to the pre and their enhancments, better buffbots due to high sp, better offensive casters due to the pre and the sp and they get a better capstone, better past life feat and better perks from the religeons

The only comparison I can think of between the two is like sorc to wis. However, with that, wizards have 2 pres that actually play towards what a wizard is good at, versitility. They get pm, which allows self heals and slas that reduce the cost of spell casting by allowing you to fill damage with them and use sp for other things. They get archmage, which allows them to have higher dcs, higher sp and free usage of spells from certain schools. Clerics pre is focused on turning the undead (the one perk of clerics) and healbotting, which fvs can do better. Vs fvs, which be better healbots, simply because of increased sp. Clerics are supposed to be more versitile, but the lack of sp means they cant do more than one thing. The lack of feats plus emp healing required means they cant afford to put to much into being a good melee, and they dont have the racial toughnesses to back it up. Vs fvs, who have enough sp to be versitile, who have a pre that allows them to offensive cast better and a pre that is a HUGE asset to a party and to themselves.

Now, those are my opinions

I also have an opinion about the divine spells themselves. The divine spells seem incomplete. There is the necromancy and negative energy, which has spells to fill its catagory, but all other damage types dont. For instance, light. With light, you have 2 rays that loses usage at level 7 ish, you have 2 aoes, one which dies with searing light and the other which only works against undead and ooze and that you get level 17, You have 1 dot, which is the ONLY decent light spell out there for general damage. And theres a whole enhancment line around it. Vs fire damage, which has flame storm, flame strike, symbol of flame. The first two are more usefull than most forms of light damge. Then you have vague damge like cometfall and bb. Both of which are again, some of the only usefull damaging spells. They give clerics an enhancment line around light, and they turn around and make every spell from it bar one suck. Then they're good damage, which they give 1 spell to and make a whole item bonus for. That makes sense. I think they should add more light spells. They made radiant servent partly for light damage. That part of the pre is useless due to the lack of light damage spells.

And with pres, clerics should have a pre that adds to their versitility, or adds more functions to their turn undead, which the best function of turn undead is in fact turn undead. The heal aura does precious little since no one bothers to stay in it, and its healing is not enough to make much of a difference.

Either the pre, or fvs should get a gimp. Because aside from turning undead, fvs are better at everything in comparison to clerics. Just my two sense. I want to hear other peoples suggestions, and more than likely, tell me that I am wrong and should die in a hole.

Well, comment!
Sincerely, koechophe

Someone has no idea what they're talking about. If you think turn undead is a major pro for a cleric, you've never played a cleric, if you think rad serv is useless you've never played a cleric, I suggest you go play a cleric without talking about clerics like they're a waste of party slots.

First, lets start with aura. On me, a char with no amp, my aura hits for 25 on a non-crit every 2 seconds. 12.5 HP a second on everyone around you for free is pretty useful. Next, the burst, I only have 12 of them which is on the low side. Aside from the regen on turns which is enough to keep aura up for all fights, I have about 8 bursts, usually more. Each burst is about the same healing as a cure mod in my experience, so 8 x 90 SP that fvs don't get that you can easily calculate. Aura is 42 ticks of 25 for me, so 1050 HP per aura to everyone before heal amp over 1:24.

I only have 2004 SP, which is on the low side as Im a 18/2. With around the equivalent of 720 SP from bursts *and* aura, I have around the same SP as an fvs. A couple 100 or so less, but around the same as a melee fvs.The aura closes the gap. Next, there's the fact that clerics get the 25% boost to emp heal due to pre, which is also useful. Clerics also get the emp heal line which lets you save 4 SP per cast of a heal.

Onto the apparent lack of SP for offensive casting clerics have. I have plenty actually, I manage to toss a destruct on casters and neg lvs on melee to help the arcane out in pretty much every raid/epic I do. The only times I dont do so are in pugs where its less a factor of me not being able to land spells and more a factor of me not being sure the melee wont get 2 shot. This is from the perspective of a 18/2 clr/mnk who has a gimped SP pool also, a pure cleric can afford to be even more offensive.

Finally, just throwing in a paragraph about gear, was hesitant to do this, but this helps out both divine casters so putting it in. First of all, dweller is 60 SP every 2 mins, ie a free implosion every other cast. I usually care in 6 eggs with me because Im too lazy to bother getting more, a more dedicated person can easily get more. Next, the abbot staff, -10% SP, further reduces SP costs. If you throw in random clickys like litany/nox embers/twisted/ring/etc. anyone with the gimpiest spell pools can have more than enough SP for anything.

I frankly feel fvs' and clerics are balanced just fine, I dont understand why people keep trying to point out their class is 'The Master Race'. Also, you can reply to this if you want, but I frankly just skimmed over your OP, the lack of.. punctuation/grammar makes it very difficult to read, no offence.

[Dlusin]

A favored soul is MAD.
A Cleric is SAD.

Gear adds durability and power latter in the game, but often a FvS will sacrifice some spell casting by dumping CHA to end up with a more balanced end game character. Most often a cleric does not have to make such a sacrifice.

Perhaps more often than not, people that wish to create a pure character that can handle multiple rolls in a party lean toward FvS because as a class it is designed to be both a divine and a secondary or tertiary melee character. While by design (at least in this game) a cleric is more easily focused on spell casting.

Ether way a person that is familiar with the Divine classes, and has taken the time to learn and enjoy this game can make both of them seem astoundingly overpowered.

In fact I have seen people do some crazy things on every class. Be it a hate tanking Rogue, a Bard that heals and does the CC, or the fighter that for some reason never dies, no mater how bad it looks (or how hard I try to kill them).

As far as I am concerned, this game is fairly well balanced. I play the classes that I enjoy, I hope that is what other people do too. I look forward to, and hope that many things are added to this game, clerical domains being one of them. But until that happens I think that the people that enjoy playing clerics can make due with amazing heals, fantastic CON scores, auras that heal over time, healing bursts that recharge, CC that can literally make most foes lie down at there feet, whirling blades of death, and the ability to divinely punish anybody that remains.

Of course I am by no means the end all and be all of, well anything. But I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the people that play any kind of a divine character will agree.

Signed Dlusin, past life cleric, current life FvS, future life... bard?

Edit for spelling...

[Vyrn]

No one is saying that clerics are gimp.

Maybe that should tell you something. Many people say that FvS are better than clerics. Many people say that they are different, but equal. No one says that clerics are better than FvS.

I know many that do actually. Perhaps you shouldnt confuse your personal experiences with everyone's experiences.

[joneb1999]

No one is saying that clerics are gimp.

Maybe that should tell you something. Many people say that FvS are better than clerics. Many people say that they are different, but equal. No one says that clerics are better than FvS.

Maybe that is a reflection of the attitude of some FvS players and possibly those who disagree and who favour clerics are of a more humble and open minded personality and do not feel the need to shove their opinions down others throats constantly. Well until their ire is raised.

[fyrst.grok]

No one is saying that clerics are gimp.

Maybe that should tell you something. Many people say that FvS are better than clerics. Many people say that they are different, but equal. No one says that clerics are better than FvS.

Actually.. Cleric can be more dps (divine might) and better healers as well.. fvs excell at soloing because they have damage mitigation.

WF are probably the best offensive fvs's and they're still behind a HOrc Cleric dps-wise.. Not sure about the numbers but 2-4 per swing I believe.

[Luxx0r]

<snip>...

In fact I have seen people do some crazy things on every class. ... a Bard that heals and does the CC ...

<snip>

I fail to see anythig crazy in that >.>

[Razcar]

Ok, so I understand that this game is a premium game and many of the items and adventures bought are supposed to be better than the ones available to all, but generally I thought there was supposed to exist a balance between classes, in terms of uses and power.

But it's right there.

In DDO, a customer can use the product without paying for it. But this costumer constitutes a cost for Turbine, just like a paying one does (but little less, through no asccess to e.g. GM assistance, less database load due to less characters etc.) through consuming bandwidth, development costs, management costs, server costs etc.

Naturally Turbine wants these "freeloaders" to not only pay for the party as well, but to make a profit out of them. And to do this Turbine have to entice them, and a great and cheap way to achieve is to make paid content more attractive and/or powerful than the free content.

If the FvS wouldn't be better than the Cleric, Turbine would be doing it wrong. The FvS has to be so much better that it entices a free player to spend money when he could get the similar Cleric for free.

[wootvenu]

Both are good in their own way,

For business stand point: some classes are pampered and priced accordingly.

[erikbozelie]

these threads come every 2 weeks or so.

clerics arent gimped at all.
fvs arent overpowered.

the people that think so really overlook an certain numbers to enhance clerics in such an way, that cannot be done with fvs.

as my opinion.

Cleric > fvs atm. only uninformed people will tell you otherwise.

[Qindark]

An FVS can change one spell every 3 days?
A cleric can change spells every shrine if they need to.

Just another bonus for the cleric.