My opinion about the balance between fvs and clerics

[erikbozelie]

Build already provided. Level 20 FvS evoker.

i did that build myself. what i meant was that most fvs are spouting random numbers.
for example how much an burst actually is worth.

but never provide any numbers to back it up.
they only start attacking eachother under the idea that the other party is making up theyre numbers. which they are not.

same with the numbers on how much sp they got( i needed to provide it for them ).
same with the nuking numbers of AoV.

as an example i could say:
the archon nuking for 1 min, is equal damage to an cleric hitting any monster for 4 sec. or burst is worth X sp. but i would need to provide the numbers behind it.
I was not telling anyone burst was worth 116sp. i was showing you it is worth 116sp. if you think otherwise provide the numbers you think, how and why.

on the other hand people are getting upset and angry even if i used theyre estimation(based off? theyre own idea i guess) used for bursts.

[Vyrn]

Welp, found an fvs with a dweller ingame to check the CLW healing range. Its 64-93. FvS, healing spec, with an eardweller. My aura ticks for 25 every 2 seconds.

Average on CLW Capstone: 78.5 Every 6 seconds - Single Target
3 Ticks of Aura: 75 (25 x [6/2]) - On everyone in range.

FvS Capstone:
Good thing is, its more healing on average on something like a tank where you only need to worry about 1 person, on average. You can also toss it from a range. A disadvantage would be well.. its single target.
Cleric Aura:
Whereas the capstone is 3.5 higher on one person the aura is practically every melee in the quest so essentially 8-9 times its effectiveness, while only being 3.5 every 6 seconds behind. The difference is.. negligible, 0.58 per second of healing behind on 1 person, easily ahead if you have more than 1 melee taking damage.

Another plus for the aura is it doesnt require you to do anything just have to stand next to the melee, whereas the capstone requires you to switch targets, hit the button, and get on global cooldown. Not much effort, but its still there, in places where you need to be very quick in healing somewhere like.. elite ToD, youd be better off just tossing a scroll on the tank since you dont have the TIME to drop a 120ish pt heal in there depending on heal amp. With the aura, just walk up behind the boss and its hands free.

Note: Tests are with no amp to be accurate. More amp you add, the more the FvS capstone comes out ahead. Would still be.. negligible though, at 200% amp, the FvS capstone would be about 1 HP per second on a single target ahead. Still made up easily if you have more than 1 person taking damage.

[joneb1999]

Atomic Mew is beginning to make me think the AoV FvS is overpowered and needs a nerf.

[tgu]

I, probably like others have a serious love/hate thing going on with you Atomic. It baffles me really, you said this:

Whereas a melee cleric does not have the exact same SP as a casting cleric, and in fact far less for two reasons:
1) A melee cleric NEEDS to splash in order to keep up with the DPS of a pure level 20 melee FvS. And still, the FvS will out-DPS him.
2) A melee cleric's primary attribute is STR, which means he's getting less SP from his wisdom modifier. This isn't the case with melee FvS, which has the same modifier as a casting FvS.

1. A Half-Orc Battle Cleric will outdamage ***EASILY*** even the WF FvS (math below). A cleric could honestly stay pure 20 (Half-Orc/Dwarf --> get a martial weapon feat) and still outdamage the WF FvS.

2. There are builds out there of people getting 40+ STR AND WIS, it's not unrealistic and it makes for a very strong build (dwarf would probably be the best option).

Here is the math:

Half-Orc:
(don't count fury as it requires less than 50% HP)
+2 str = 1.5 dmg as THF
+4 THF
+3 Improved Power attack

= 8.5 dmg, -2 to hit (+1 from 2 str, -3 PA)

Warforged:

+3 Imp. Power attack
+2 FvS Lord of the Blades
+2 WF Greatsword enhancements (lvl 15/18)

= 7 dmg, -2 hit (+1 Lord, -3 PA)

Note: The cleric doesn't even have Divine Might running, imagine how much more it gets.

Let's make up some figures: 10 DR is equivalent to stoneskin and so lets say is worth 300 SP, Wings are worth 2000 SP, free CLW is worth 1500 SP, archon is worth 500 SP, the debuff is worth 3000 SP. 30% damage buff to BB damage is worth 500 SP * 30% = 150 SP. Adding all this up together, FvS have an equivalent of approximately 15,000 SP which is far far greater than cleric's 6000 SP. Therefore, FvS > cleric.

If you find this ridiculous, that's because it is. As is this made up figure of FvS SP, so is this 6000 SP number for clerics.

You completely tore apart a lot of arguments here. Really great, and showed the flaws in theoretical SP. It is silly to try to give values to SP, and you really showed how ridiculous some peoples math are (like 6,000 SP). Well done sir, well done.

[Meat-Head]

1. A Half-Orc Battle Cleric will outdamage ***EASILY*** even the WF FvS (math below). A cleric could honestly stay pure 20 (Half-Orc/Dwarf --> get a martial weapon feat) and still outdamage the WF FvS.

<snip>

Here is the math:
Note: The cleric doesn't even have Divine Might running, imagine how much more it gets.

<snip>.

One more thing even a pure cleric Horc has on the WF melee: Not using a greatsword. The Horc will use a Falchion or a GA which have a better damage profile to start with.

PLUS divine might (which, as mentioned is NO small thing). Even DM 2 is +4 damage per hit.

[tgu]

One more thing even a pure cleric Horc has on the WF melee: Not using a greatsword. The Horc will use a Falchion or a GA which have a better damage profile to start with.

PLUS divine might (which, as mentioned is NO small thing). Even DM 2 is +4 damage per hit.

Let's not even factor in fighter haste on a 18/2 build, that just makes it not even close.

But yeah, a pure 20 GA dwarf or Falchion Horc will have it just as good (more damage still, just give up a feat)...and keep all the goodies of staying pure.

I was wrong in the other thread, clerics really do have melee won. What the WF FvS has (Sirgog's build for example) is that it can intim tank raids, and is a good all-around.

[voodoogroves]

One more thing even a pure cleric Horc has on the WF melee: Not using a greatsword. The Horc will use a Falchion or a GA which have a better damage profile to start with.

With that one super obvious exception ;-)

[Meat-Head]

I was wrong in the other thread, clerics really do have melee won. What the WF FvS has (Sirgog's build for example) is that it can intim tank raids, and is a good all-around.

No doubt that the Soulsurvivor is a good build. And it does tank well because of extra threat via WF enhancements AND the DR.


Although, and I'm not arguing here just thinking out loud, I wonder if the Horc 19/1 build might be able to tank just as well. The RSII Aura replaces the DR and the Horc has the SAME threat enhancements that the WF has.

For tanking, the WF has the ability to be arcane healed without regard for curses AND better reflex save. Not sure how much either of those is worth. (I mean I'm really not sure. Not "not sure" as in "I doubt it's worth much" but "not sure" as in "I really don't know")

With that one super obvious exception ;-)

Yes, assuming both have eSOS, the cleric is still ahead, but not by as much.

[erikbozelie]

I was wrong in the other thread, clerics really do have melee won. What the WF FvS has (Sirgog's build for example) is that it can intim tank raids, and is a good all-around.

not familiar with the build, however for clerics:
splash with intim class, dump full ranks ^^

[maddmatt70]

Thats a cop-out. Point is, a cleric does have more effective SP than an fvs in terms of healing, as me and multiple others have pointed so far, multiple times, and you havent refuted this point a single time so far.

I really tire of your posts. I can tell you do not have the foggiest idea of what you speak of. I play both a cleric and a fvs and they heal equally well. My favored soul has about 2650 spell points without speccing for spell points. Do not forget large guild augment slots and archmagi which are both double spell points for an FVS and then you also add just the fact that a FVS simply has more spell points. A FVS has about 500-750 more sp then a cleric. A cleric has the aura and burst which is a nice healing supplement and makes up for the additional spell points that a FVS has in a group setting. In a tank setting its aura vs. healing word which is a draw again.

I just solo healed a Tower Hard on the main tank and part 2 with my FVS not that it was too difficult. My agenda here is simple buff clerics a bit - like 90% of the divine players in game I do not care if a melee cleric does 2 more pts of damage per swing because I have no intention of playing a melee divine so would like to see domains, divine feats, useful divine spells, or enhanced turning added to the game thus making clerics a little better.

[Razcar]

My agenda here is simple buff clerics a bit - like 90% of the divine players in game I do not care if a melee cleric does 2 more pts of damage per swing because I have no intention of playing a melee divine so would like to see domains, divine feats, useful divine spells, or enhanced turning added to the game thus making clerics a little better.

I agree with Matt. Middling melee DPS is middling melee DPS. Both Cleric and FvS are mediocre melee combatants at best, and if one does a little less mediocre damage than the other is irrelevant.

Second, this thread has turned into some juvenile my-toon-is-cooler-that-yours bragging fest. I'm sure you have really kewl Clerics boys. Now, how about some suggestions about how to improve the class instead?

I think the best way would be just to introduce more Divine spells into the game. That's a point where it is starting to hurt for Sorcerers now - they feel the strain from their fewer spell slots now and then again. Favored Souls, not so much. Introducing one or two useful spells at, say, level 6-9 (so about 5-6 higher level ones in total) would make the limited spell slots a disadvantage for the FvS, while bringing some fun for Clerics at the same time (and for FvSs as well, along with the selection agnony...)

[Meat-Head]

I haven't engaged in rhetoric, exaggeration, or personal attack but I got neg repped in this thread?


The OP was about the balance between the classes. The OP also incorrectly identified strengths that FVS has over Clerics (namely melee capability and overall healing output)

The OP also incorrectly mentioned that Clerics do not have a useful PrE.


So, it's easy to see why some folks came to the rescue of Clerical reputation.


When talking about the balance, I don't see the problem. FVS are better casters by a good margin, Clerics are better melee, have greater flexibility, and rip through undead like butter. Both heal great.


ALL OF THAT BEING SAID


I doubt ANYONE here will disagree that divines could use more spells to choose from. So, on that front:

/SIGNED


One last personal note: I'd be all for domains.. But I really think it would cause 1700 threads like this one crying about Clerics being OP compared to FVS...

[erikbozelie]

no Meat-Head,

your actually one of the people in this thread that see the comparanson without preference to either side.

i see no reason why someone would report you, or which post in that case.
this thread has been edited allot by operators, since it was getting off topic.

as for the comparanson,

if you want healing power, cleric wins
if you want spell damage, fvs wins
if you want melee, cleric wins,
if you want spell points, fvs wins

for everything else, such as wings, 25% healing amp, added effects to bursts, or cure light wound sla's, or DR

you cant really fairly compare it since it doesnt do the same effect.

both are great.
my personal idea is that theyre balanced. although one of the 2 will be better at some areas then the other.

[maddmatt70]

You may think these two classes are balanced but from what I see in game most veteran players do not agree with you. I see people not playing their clerics in favor of playing their FVS, I see people trring their FVS for beneficial past lives and not trring their clerics for beneficial past lives, I see people rolling up new FVS instead of new Clerics, and I see people make permanent changes of trring their Cleric into a FVS.

[tgu]

no Meat-Head,

your actually one of the people in this thread that see the comparanson without preference to either side.

Comparison***

I think preference is nice though...when you load in the game, what makes you prefer that cleric? What makes you prefer that favored soul? These are interested details.

as for the comparanson,

if you want healing power, cleric wins
if you want spell damage, fvs wins
if you want melee, cleric wins,
if you want spell points, fvs wins

As I learned in the previous thread I had going, saying one wins or the other wins means nothing.

Why? Let me explain.

Healing is made easier for clerics, it doesn't mean that FvS now have a much harder job and there "healing"power is weak.

Spell damage - the PrE is good for FvS, but are you a WF FvS, Evoker,OR some sort of TWF? Clerics make better generalist, getting both spell damage AND melee. Point - WF FvS won't do much more then a Cleric with full DCs. 50% BB + AoV vs. 40-ish DC + 100% BB...tough call.

Melee - I've pointed out it comes down as low as 1.5 dmg + DM, and seeing most won't get past +4. So, essentially a cleric is going to do roughly 5-8 more damage. Is this GROUND BREAKING, MUST HAVE? No.

Spell points - not really even an argument. The cleric can use turns for healing, so essentially can use less spell points on strictly healing.

Overall - my point is winning out on something means very little. You lose a few points of damage, 30% spell damage, a little extra healing, or have a bit more spell points...very tiny overall impact. Almost as tiny as what race you chose...it only hurts a bit more at lower levels.

Why?

The key here - base stats + (weapon or spell) + (hit/ spell resistance and/or DC) + enhancements/effects(ardor for example) = largest impact overall.

[Vyrn]

I really tire of your posts. I can tell you do not have the foggiest idea of what you speak of. I play both a cleric and a fvs and they heal equally well. My favored soul has about 2650 spell points without speccing for spell points. Do not forget large guild augment slots and archmagi which are both double spell points for an FVS and then you also add just the fact that a FVS simply has more spell points. A FVS has about 500-750 more sp then a cleric. A cleric has the aura and burst which is a nice healing supplement and makes up for the additional spell points that a FVS has in a group setting. In a tank setting its aura vs. healing word which is a draw again.

I just solo healed a Tower Hard on the main tank and part 2 with my FVS not that it was too difficult. My agenda here is simple buff clerics a bit - like 90% of the divine players in game I do not care if a melee cleric does 2 more pts of damage per swing because I have no intention of playing a melee divine so would like to see domains, divine feats, useful divine spells, or enhanced turning added to the game thus making clerics a little better.

I like you agreed with my points and yet still say I dont have the foggiest idea of what Im talking about. Your fvs has 550 more SP than my 18/2, which is easily exceeded by bursts. Math provided multiple times so far. Aura is just as good, if not better for tough tanking situations, math and rational also posted previously. Yes I realize fvs get double SP from items but this isnt that big of a lead if you consider burst, math provided multiple times now.

At no point did I say fvs cant heal. I simply provided reasons for which clerics can heal just as well, if not better, in group situations and just as well in tanking situations as a fvs. Wasnt trying to imply I dont want clerics buffed.

[Meat-Head]

Again, I think the idea of having more divine spells is solid. That can only help.

But I see both as relatively balanced. My main will eventually be a melee cleric after this TR and maybe 1 or 2 more.

But I also have a FVS caster I level on my off time. I like him. To me, I'm using each for their specific strength.


Now math for the melee comparison for fun. Let's see what the difference really is (skip to bottom for final #s):


20 FVS WF Soul Survivor (max str, PA 2 enhancement, Greatsword enhancement, and +3 Str tome) LITII GS Greatsword

Damage Modifiers

+16 from STR (18+5 Levelups+6 from STR item+3tome=32 STR= 11damage *1.5 (thf) =16)
+5 Weapon Modifer (+5 GS weapons)
+2 Lord of Blades
+12 Power Attack + Enhancements
+1 Rage
+2 double madstoned (for fun)
+1 Yugo Pot
+3 Divine Favor Spell
+1 Str Ship Buff (+2 shrine)

=43 Damage Bonus

**This build does NOT have THF feat line. So base glancing blows will be 20%

LIT2GS = 3d6 17-20 x2 over 100 swings (10% will miss; 20% of hits will crit;70% will be base damage)
70*(10+43)+20((10+43)2)+((90(10+43)*.2)*.5) (glancing blows) = 3710 + 2120 + 477

6307 damage over 100 swings

19(18)/1(2) Horc Cleric/Ftr (Max str, PA 2 Enhancement, Orc Melee Damage enchancement, DMII, +3 Str Tome, Ftr Hasteboost I) LITII GS Falchion

Same as above (replace +2 lord of blades with +2 orc melee enh)

43
+ 2 for higher STR + STR enhancements
+4 DM2

=49

**This build can fit full THF Line. That's 50% base damage on glancing

LIT2Falch = 2d6 15-20 x2 over 100 swings (10% will miss; 30% of hits will crit;60% will be base damage)
60*(7+49)+30((7+49)2)+((90(7+49)*.5)*.75) (glancing blows)= 3360 + 3360 + 1890=

8610 damage over 100 swings

*1.15 for fighter haste boost =9901.5




WF Lord of Blades = 6307 Damage over 100 Swings
Horc Battle Cleric = 9901.5 damage over 100 Swings


Melee Cleric will be nearly 57% MORE melee damage than a WF Soul Survivor


**This does NOT include Bard buffs or + Damage gear (Tharnes, Claw, etc..) Which will ALL BENEFIT CLERIC MORE due to better crit profile of the Falchion
IT ALSO does not include about 10% chance of Cleric of having magical effects on glancing blows (shock damage).

Why?

-Haste Boost
-Better Weapon
-THF Line (has room for feats)
-Higher STR
-Divine Might

Pretty much in that order.



BOTTOM LINE: For MELEE, it's not even friggin close. Cleric wins. It's not just 1.5 damage per swing.


Once again,

Caster = FVS
Melee = Cleric

Balance = I think so. But that's more of an opinion.

[AtomicMew]

I like you agreed with my points and yet still say I dont have the foggiest idea of what Im talking about. Your fvs has 550 more SP than my 18/2, which is easily exceeded by bursts. Math provided multiple times so far. Aura is just as good, if not better for tough tanking situations, math and rational also posted previously. Yes I realize fvs get double SP from items but this isnt that big of a lead if you consider burst, math provided multiple times now.

You must have forgetten that FvS have 15,000 effective SP, which is > 6000 SP.

Again, I think the idea of having more divine spells is solid. That can only help.

But I see both as relatively balanced. My main will eventually be a melee cleric after this TR and maybe 1 or 2 more.

But I also have a FVS caster I level on my off time. I like him. To me, I'm using each for their specific strength.


Now math for the melee comparison for fun. Let's see what the difference really is (skip to bottom for final #s):

This is all one TLDR of irrelevant and false.

Irrelevant in that you haven't factored in spell DPS. You are already losing SIGNIFICANT DPS from lower level, weaker divine punishment and not having archon. Not only that, but cleric misses out light vulnerability procs. You are doing on the order of ~50% OR LESS spell DPS on a battle cleric compared to a FvS.

Why should we care about spell DPS? Because spell DPS does TWO TO FOUR times the DPS you put out with melee.

Your calculations are also false in that you haven't factored in FvS shield of condemnation. FvS melee DPS EASILY takes over after a few procs. FvS is the highest DPS character in the game, besides maybe a full DoT specced sorcerr. FvS adds more DPS to the party than even a maxed warchanter bard.

[Meat-Head]

17/2/1 Human Cleric/Mnk/Ftr ( DMII, +3 Str Tome, Ftr Hasteboost I) LITII GS Khopesh

Damage Modifiers

+9 from STR (14+5 Levelups+6 from STR item+3tome=28 STR= 9damage)
+5 Weapon Modifer (+5 GS weapons)
+5 Power Attack
+1 Rage
+2 double madstoned (for fun)
+1 Yugo Pot
+3 Divine Favor Spell
+1 Str Ship Buff (+2 shrine)
+4 DMII

=31 Damage Bonus

**Full TWF line

LIT2GS = 1d10 17-20 x2 over 100 swings (10% will miss; 20% of hits will crit;70% will be base damage)
70*(5+31)+20((5+31)3)+ = 2520 + 2160 = 4680 *1.8(second hand) = 8424

8424 damage over 100 swings


*1.15 for fighter haste boost =9687.6


**This does NOT include Bard buffs or + Damage gear (Tharnes, Claw, etc..) Which will ALL BENEFIT CLERIC MORE due to better crit profile of the Falchion
IT ALSO does not include about 10% chance of Cleric of having magical effects on glancing blows (shock damage).



Now you have a TWF Battle Cleric with Evasion... WHO CAN RAID HEAL.

Not bad. This can be attributed to cleric flexibility.

[Meat-Head]

This is all one TLDR of irrelevant and false.

Irrelevant in that you haven't factored in spell DPS. You are already losing SIGNIFICANT DPS from lower level, weaker divine punishment and not having archon. Not only that, but cleric misses out light vulnerability procs. You are doing on the order of ~50% OR LESS spell DPS on a battle cleric compared to a FvS.

Why should we care about spell DPS? Because spell DPS does TWO TO FOUR times the DPS you put out with melee.

Your calculations are also false in that you haven't factored in FvS shield of condemnation. FvS melee DPS EASILY takes over after a few procs. FvS is the highest DPS character in the game, besides maybe a full DoT specced sorcerr. FvS adds more DPS to the party than even a maxed warchanter bard.

Of course, with trash this is largely not applicable. BUT, you may be right on a boss beat down. I would want to see the math myself. You don't really lose much from DP itself being cleric. BUT:

You don't get the additional light vulnerability stuff, the archon, and the -10% Fort.

I would need to see math tho in order to see what the damage difference would be.