Seriously, PM light damage......nerf it PLZ!!!!

[Drekisen]

Pale masters are insanely powerful. They have a weak spot.

Get over it

So is every other class and their PrE minus the light vulnerability, what were you trying to say here?

[dlsidhe]

Speaking as a leveling PM, here's the issue with the damage multiplier on light spells - PMs in form already take the increased damage die from the light spell. On Searing Light, that's a weighted 1d6 per caster level in form vs. taking a weighted 1d8 per 2 caster levels out of form. To put in perspective using a CR8 Wight Priest, that's taking 8d3+24 vs 4d4+16, which is already a considerable difference in damage. In Zombie form, that translates to 16d3+48 vs 4d4+16. With no save. And no way to mitigate. In addition, the damage gets doubled on ANY light spell, which means a CR6 Nimbus of Light turns from a 1d4+10 to a 2d4+20...and this is a spell which has no player benefit against undead.

I have no issue with a PM taking more damage from light spells, but the degree to which the damage is amplified is totally ludicrous, particularly given that standard undead don't take a multiplier on light damage (otherwise, I'd be decimating Delera's on my FvS). Ramp it up 110-125%, sure. Maybe even do the full 200% on vamp form. But the damage is currently disproportional to the benefits of form while leveling.

[voodoogroves]

I disagree with going PM on a WF.... you might as well go AM if you are going to loose the +1 to DC from drow.. Better self healing and SLA's are well worth it.

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are a fair number of WF PMs who disagree with you. The flexibility in various quests to drop out of form, etc. is pretty nifty. Your theorhetical analysis doesn't match the actual playing experience of those who advocate the WF PM, and that's cool.

[Ertay]

It was probably stated already, but if not, I'll do so again for emphasis:

Searing Light, the most used light spell by enemy divines, does already do double damage to PMs in all forms, because they are considered undead now. Whoever thought having a vulnerability for light damage on a vampire would be fine flavor wise (and it certainly is) did obviously not think this through, because 4x damage x2 is actually a whopping 8x damage from searing light. With this change, a spell that is barely noticed by anyone else turns into a devastating damage attack against PMs, which i feel is a bit much.

[Forgeborn]

Seeing as how PM's are on their own for heals, and have the insane vulnerability to light damage no other PrE faces even remotely closely, I really fail to see your point.

So, in short; you can't back up the claim you make about "all the stuff you get by way of Undead form immunities is EASILY obtained through items/potions/buffs for any other class."

First you give that EXACT argument as a response to "Why should PM get all these benefits and not have some huge shortcoming?", and then, when I ask you to back up your claim that "all the stuff is easily obtained through buffs/pots/items" you suddenly bring the light vulnerability up as a defensive argument for it not being available in pot/buff form.

Pick a side, and stick to it, make claims you can back up instead of claiming falsehoods and lies.

Ohh, and 'weak spots'; Against the demon queen, part II, the actual raid;
That monk in your party, what's he gonna do against the queen while she's standing all the way over on those platforms? Throw piddly shurikens at her? Which in most cases will be ignored by her damage reduction.

That radiant servant you brought up before? How will he use his PRE on the offense? he can burst against the plethora of undead at low levels, but at cap, it's pretty much useless except as another 'mass cure light wounds', and it runs of a VERY limited resource, namely turn attempts, unlike the pale master who gets a few spell like abilities which he can pretty much just cycle through and rely on the much more easily replenished resource of HP.

That Frenzied berserker? How will he use his PRE defensively? he just can't, it's a purely offensive PRE. The pale master can throw up a shroud of the wraith, and enjoy his 25% incorporeality, or he can toss up zombie, and enjoy a nice little DR 5/slash, or possibly even lich, who gets life shield build in.

Pale master on the other hand has both offensive abilities build into the PRE (necro touch/bolt/blast), and defensive capabilities (lich life shield, damage reduction, in-corporeality, extra HP from con increases). That, combined with the negative energy spells which allow for full self heals (and the aura that allows a continues healing of useful proportions for a minor cost in sp) makes the Pale Master Prestige path one of the most powerful prestige lines currently implemented.

Every other class has it's weaknesses, be it the lack of healing, harming itself, having massive trouble with stat distribution, or being focused to much on one particular enemy, the pale master has few, but the most prevalent is deadly, and used a fair amount by enemy casters, as it should be, they shouldn't be getting away without weaknesses.

And you have time to think, it's called "Get out of the darn room around a corner, and finger em one by one instead of standing in the freaking center of room with a huge buls-eye painted on your ass", or possibly "stop running up front with your D4 HD while the barbarian with his D12 is much better suited to wade in before you and take the hits"

For the rest, you are given the ability to be on your own for heals, you can also rely on clerics and fvs, who can carry harm with them to heal you(granted, fvs usually don't, just to little spells for 6th level), pretty much the same as the barbarian has to do. Or you can stock up on those lovely inflict pots, and chug those as health pots. A frenzies berserker barbarian has pretty much 2 choices on the other hand, rely on a cleric/fvs, or chug pots until he's full again. a PM is given the chance of providing his own heals.

Next, the ability to not have to rely on a stupid piece of AI named 'hireling' is both a curse and a boon. Hirelings are prone to find the one spot in a trap where they will die, and pull a ton of aggro that they can't handle, and thus die, leaving whoever is controlling him to fend for himself, on the other hand, as you said, you can't rely on a quick heal when you're low, because you're not healed by standard positive energy like everyone else, for that reason, I'd love to see hirelings choosing both harm, and heal, in their spell selection, and using the one that is appropriate for the target that needs to be healed.

I can agree with you though that the amount of damage is out of line. In my opinion, any spell that has a different effect on living creatures then on undead creatures should count you as ALIVE, since you're merely 'shrouded' in negative energy, and not a true undead. That would limit the damage of searing light and some other spells already, and it would be more manageable, next I'd like to see vampire put at the same *2 modifier that the other forms have, taking 4x as much damage from any type of spell is grossly out of line.

All in all; Pale masters are powerful, but they have a weakness, either learn to deal with that weakness, or choose another path to walk, as it is with every class and prestige enhancement. Nobody forces you to level as a pale master, or even use your forms until you reach the higher levels, you have choices, and the amount of pale masters I see in everyday play, means that many have learned to deal with the light damage as it is, without complaining, without whining, they accept it, and still happily play their demi-gods to their hearts content.

[Khurse]

PM/Light Damage interaction is fine.

It's adds some amusement levelling up, and is largely a non factor at endgame.
Although Aspe did get hit for 617 HPs of damage by Horoth in a hard TOD (and died)

It was entertaining I guess. Guildies laughed.

Actually they still laugh...bastards.

But yeah, I've levelled up a couple of times as a PM. The light damage is mildly annoying, but that's about it.

[Uska]

My pm is fine and please stop with the awful font colors there is no need to gouge people's eyes as you always doing

[Drekisen]

I can agree with you though that the amount of damage is out of line. In my opinion, any spell that has a different effect on living creatures then on undead creatures should count you as ALIVE, since you're merely 'shrouded' in negative energy, and not a true undead. That would limit the damage of searing light and some other spells already, and it would be more manageable, next I'd like to see vampire put at the same *2 modifier that the other forms have, taking 4x as much damage from any type of spell is grossly out of line.

And this is all I was freekin saying to begin with, but no, I have the attitude when in reality half the people who responded to this have never even leveled a PM and/or realize how the light damage vulnerability is actually applied currently.

Yeah, I'm going to have an attitude when people are blaming me for something I didn't even do.

Everyone who cared to bash me in this thread made it out like I came on here whining that it's shouldn't be there at all, and I said from the start it needs to be adjusted not removed.

Yeah, people do tend to get chips on their shoulders fairly easily when all they have to talk to is a pack of wolves.

[Drekisen]

My pm is fine and please stop with the awful font colors there is no need to gouge people's eyes as you always doing

Wow, I'll just jump on the bash the person with a problem bandwagon here.....PUT ME ON BLOCK OR GET SOME NEW EYES

[Truga]

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are a fair number of WF PMs who disagree with you. The flexibility in various quests to drop out of form, etc. is pretty nifty. Your theorhetical analysis doesn't match the actual playing experience of those who advocate the WF PM, and that's cool.

This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling

[Ugumagre]

My conclusion:

I will never ever roll a Pale Master. They are TOTALLY nerfed and are not worth a party slot.
If I ever put a LFM, my first question will be "are you a PM?". When yes, I will answer "GIIIIIMMMPPP" and refuse him.

Thank you for posting, for a new guy like me, it is good to know some simple facts.

[Zerenety]

.

Maybe the zombie shroud is for you? yknow, eating brains and all that. Might catch you some points ^^

naaw, im jking ^^ but seriously....! Naaaaaaw, jking again. Srsly!

Eye for an eye.

Your argument is invalid

[Dragavon]

So is every other class and their PrE minus the light vulnerability, what were you trying to say here?

You dont get it?

PM is very powerful, its only a fair trade they have a weakness. If Turbine where to reduce a PM's weakness to light dmg then they should also reduce their power.

You are crying like a baby. Learn to play your PM, and shut it

[voodoogroves]

This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.

[Palantyr]

You know, I've leveled up a pale master six times now. Yeah light damage can hit pretty hard in some forms. There's a simple solution, if you're not able to handle the damage in a certain quests don't use the form. I can't think of one quest, leveling up or at cap, where not using a form has caused me or my group to be unable to complete.

[Kakashi67]

What Drag said.

And yes, I played a PM to cap.

Deal with the damage or go AM.

Although I suspect we'll see another rant if you reach 12 with wraith/vampire forms.

[Kakashi67]

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.

This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling

Plus you can easily switch to AM and self-heal. Nerf WF!

[delsoboss]

Oh well at least this thread is turning out to be funny, and many people are agreeing that maybe 2x and 4x on top of the change of dices of some spells is a bit too much.

Oh and NERF WF!!!!!!

[Truga]

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.

Yep yep yep.

Plus you can easily switch to AM and self-heal. Nerf WF!

I think WF is to arcane what HOes are to full dps barbarians. It's just far above everything else. The 1 DC more that humans/drow get just isn't a good enough advantage for me to not choose something that has so much more HP and versatility. The ability of getting healed by divines, arcanes, divines with harm and other PM's auras/bursts, and, of course, self heals with either necro or reconstruct makes a PM work in any situation. Even cursed, there's nothing stopping you from repairing yourself in either form.

[taurean430]

I see it the other way around really, I just hit level 6 and I am playing in Zombie form unless it's just completely un-doable.

If anything at all it's going to make me that much better of a PM by the time I hit Lich form when you are almost unstoppable.

I compare it to AC....why bother with the the AC at low levels when it's not going to matter at high levels anyways...you learn how to live without it and are used to it and that much better by the time you hit cap.

But seriously, Barbs and Fighters can do crazy DPS too and even without fortification they are not capable of being one shotted by a single melee enemy critical hit.....like full HP to zero in one shot.

Our self healing in form is nice and all, but it's not so powerful that I think it warrants us being crippled by light rays. Hurt more or even scary is fine.....it's beyond that point tho.

It'll be more doable when I hit level 7 and get Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst.

Honestly tho, light rays are the scariest thing I have ever faced in the game when ur level 6 and only have lesser death aura....LOL

That tiefling optional in Partycrashers.......with the whole gang of them and the restroom shrines....wow....that was...."exciting".

I would suggest dropping out of form for encounters such as you are describing here. I am of the opinion that the multiplier to damage one receives in vampire form is excessive. Yet and still there must be a mitigating factor in having all of the advantages that the PrC offers.

I have also found that spells as simple as hypnotism and web make encounters like the one you describe considerably less threatening.