Seriously, PM light damage......nerf it PLZ!!!!

[The_Brave2]

you keep rolling 1s ...

Every quest with a divine caster has light damage, i don't have it figured out clearly right now but it can be close to 90% of the quest in game.

If we are talking about leveling, I agree with you on all accounts. I was talking about at Cap, as I said, or implied 'at cap' in almost all of my posts.

you arent going to cast enervation on the SLA cooldown enough to make it viable, you obviously havent played an AM. and yes +2 DC is HUGE. why do you think people use yugo pots and ship buffs?

I think you sir are the one rolling 1's.

[Drekisen]

Leveling under vamp would be a pain ... but towards end game outside of run with devils and beyond mine is pretty invicible under lich form ... I solo farm edq1 for scrolls a lot lately. The vamp form however was poorly thought out I think, They pretty much added it to the middle to move Lich to the top being it's the best form... wraith is pretty good too.

I played with vamp form because I thought would be cool to play around with a little... teasing guildies wise. ummm, Well anyway I wanted to see how bad it would be so took her into Run with devils elite - they lit her up within a minute. Searing light is obvious but remember sunburst is also almost always instant death too, I used to use the latter spell on black bones is like mass disruption for them.

I recomend Wraith and then Lich... the other two forms are meh or just not worth the pain. While I agree Vamp is bloody bad I also would like to point out there are many useless things in a lot of other class PrE's in fact some entire PrE's are nearly useless ... place your AP in wraith and wait til you reach level and ap for lich.

I'm on my first TR and actually was planning on sacrificing Mental Toughness for my level 3 TR feat...which I already actually did.

I know we get a free feat swap, but I am not sure which other feat I would wanna live without until level 18.

[Truga]

To be honest, be thankful healer enemies don't use their heals on you. They can heal themselves for 500+ easily, which means you'd also get hit for 500+ if they used it!

Edit: I didn't need quicken until level 18 or so. Until then most of incoming damage won't matter with all the concentration one has.

[Cendaer]

IMO, the light damage should probably remain the way it is. If it is tweaked down, it shouldn't be by very much.

I also think they should give Pale Masters a few more of the undead-related traits, as was mentioned by one of the previous posts. However, part of me thinks it's sort of a waste to do that, since most monsters can easily be equipped with the best DR-beater weapons.

Pale Masters are quite powerful. There's no disputing that. TR'd Pale Masters, even moreso. Especially if they're a min/max build that hasn't dumped on their CON score.

Comparing them to anything else is silly (as is the case with almost all PrE's, IMO). Sure, melee's don't get one-shotted by monsters, but they also don't get to one-shot the monsters either (at least not without considerable effort on their part).

Personally, rather than do away with the light damage, or turning it down, I'd rather the Devs give us a way to combat it, or at least lessen it's sting a bit, but make us play for it.

Give us another spell.

Give us a Globe of Darkness. It could function similarly to Globe of Invulnerability. It would be stationary, but provide a cover of darkness to a Pale Master who is in danger of being struck by light. If the Pale Master is in the darkness, they only take a portion of the incoming light damage.

(At first, I was thinking attach a sort of "light" DR to the Nightshield buff, but then I thought a globe would lend itself to more strategic gameplay.)

I don't mind playing a character that's supposed to be a glass cannon, but at least give me a means to defend myself when I'm being bombarded.

[delsoboss]

If we are talking about leveling, I agree with you on all accounts. I was talking about at Cap, as I said, or implied 'at cap' in almost all of my posts.

you arent going to cast enervation on the SLA cooldown enough to make it viable, you obviously havent played an AM. and yes +2 DC is HUGE. why do you think people use yugo pots and ship buffs?

I think you sir are the one rolling 1's.

Got me on the cooldowns, i haven't played a necro AM, i played and undergeared squishy drow ench am to cap and into some epics and it was boring to see everything standing still (or dancing still) and getting beaten on by my party members.
I know that +2 DC is huge i was pointing out that you complain about lowers DC's and ignore 1 way to level the playing field in one cast since enervation is 1d4 levels and every level carries -1 to saves so if you're unlucky you're still 1 behind, if you're lucky you are 2 above.

[Forgeborn]

And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.

You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

[delsoboss]

To be honest, be thankful healer enemies don't use their heals on you. They can heal themselves for 500+ easily, which means you'd also get hit for 500+ if they used it!

Edit: I didn't need quicken until level 18 or so. Until then most of incoming damage won't matter with all the concentration one has.

But then i'll not complain about it, it's ok, it's by the rules, it's a clever way to play and it's not an arbitrary multiplier.
Granted all mobs need to start using dispel, avoid aoe and rush the healers at every encounter at the same time, but i think it could be too much for the AI.

Uhm thinking a little more about it maybe right now on the mobs forums there are divine complaining with the Devs that with the current implementation of PMs we are effectively immune to heals so they can't one shot us all the way 24/7 even during holidays.

[Drekisen]

You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

[Emili]

You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

Actually I can kill my barb under frenzie plus death frenzie in massive cleaving doing more damage to her than the mob... bout 600 of 800hp worth self-inflicted before it runs out if I've enough mob around to spew it bout.

PM sla's are actually totally free in comparison... and they pretty high powered for their sport seeing that items increase it. I cycle necrotic blast and bolt a lot.

[Forgeborn]

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

Yes, I did, it's in the freezer for several months now because I don't like her, any other questions?

[The_Brave2]

I know that +2 DC is huge i was pointing out that you complain about lowers DC's and ignore 1 way to level the playing field in one cast since enervation is 1d4 levels and every level carries -1 to saves so if you're unlucky you're still 1 behind, if you're lucky you are 2 above.

PM can cast enervation also, along with energy drain, since the SLA for enervation costs too much sp for a long cooldown it isnt really viable, especially since most necro spells you will be doing will be AOE ones and the occasional quick finger with an energy drain before it.

But ending that discussion, I agree that PM is dificult to level due to light damage, where I think that there should be vulnerability to light damage, I also think there should be vulnerability to heals.

So possibly lower the amount you get hit for from light damage, so it would hit for about double of normal spells hitting you, but also add enemy divines to heal you to death, granted not for much more than a normal spell would hit you for, but some varity would be nice.

Also, on your comment about immunities, PM gets much nicer immunities, I would LOVE to have immunity to knockdown and stuns at cap on my AM, thats pretty much the only thing that can kill that beast.

[The_Brave2]

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

Was your last life a PM? otherwise you are calling other people inexperienced on the subject for only leveling as a PM untill you got your first form at lv.6.. which is not any considerable PM experience at all

[Orratti]

And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.

I can't find anything to argue with here. You aren't someone who has no experience asking for things to be made easier. You've been around a while so you should know what you're talking about. I do believe though that a light specced divine can put out 300+ damage searing lights to undead or at least darn close to it. Whether enemy casters should be able to do that, some probably should, most probably not. Giving full undead traits no. Undead cannot change form to avoid their weakneses. Pale masters can.

I don't play many casters and I haven't played a PM. So far they seem like weaksauce warforged to me but until I play one I'm truly not able to judge. The only impressions I've had about them is they might make great soloers but having them in a party is a pain unless you don't have a healer. Their self healing isn't as good as it should be if they are going to be immune to a healer. I've seen too many fall flat on their faces maybe because of the exact thing you are complaining about. What they do to blast away in epics that warrants a 100 page nerf thread I have no idea. I guess those epic guys forgot to pack searing light or any other light spells in their spell books or prayers.

[Truga]

PM can cast enervation also

I don't even have enervation memorized on my PM, too many useful level 4 spells already. Energy drain costs a couple extra SP, for double effect anyway!

Edit: If someone confirmed PMs already getting double damage from searing light and the likes then sure, remove the extra damage. It's currently the one thing that threatens my pale master though, everything else is just laughable in the face of ~40 self healing per 2 seconds in ticks, and 500+ HP. And once I get my tod ring with exceptional CON on it, and my mineral2 helmet, and an epic envenomed cloak it's going to be 600+ HP...

Literally the only thing that threatens me in quests are divine enemies and me not paying attention to my HP because I'm just too hard to kill. I literally die more often farming favor or other such low-level activities, because I never look at my HP and it depletes eventually in some longer quests, because I don't notice the aura gone. In epics, where I keep an eye on it, the only threat is 2+ divines spamming light spells at me.

I say keep the vulnerability. My first life on this wiz was something like 100+HP at level 6, 250+HP at level 12, and I didn't even have any twink gear back then. That's plenty to survive. Maybe tone it down a little, so people that choose meatbags can compete. Or maybe tie it to level. Zombie is a **** form anyway, have it have 25% vulnerability, vamp/wraith 50%, and lich the full 100% since it's also the most powerful form anyway.

[Veriden]

This statement tells me you obviously do not play PM's, so why are you even in this thread?

Funny thing is, there are actually quite a few, and you are usually being bombarded by multiples at once. It's excessive, and there is no save or resistance item that will help when you are getting slammed that bad.

IMO, this is just a typical example of Turbine DEV extremity.

As far as the x's amount, I guess I was thinking....

normal 25
1x 50
2x 75
3x 100
4x 125

you may need some math lessons...Anything multiplied by 1 = original sum
1x 25, 2x 50, 3x 75, 4x 100.
Quite frankly I dislike pale masters, and the weakness balances their strengths. Nothing is with out weakness in order of balance. The Pale master's is mere more physical than other classes.

[delsoboss]

But ending that discussion, I agree that PM is dificult to level due to light damage, where I think that there should be vulnerability to light damage, I also think there should be vulnerability to heals.

So possibly lower the amount you get hit for from light damage, so it would hit for about double of normal spells hitting you, but also add enemy divines to heal you to death, granted not for much more than a normal spell would hit you for, but some varity would be nice.

As i have said to Truga one problem i can see is that with the current implementation PMs are simply immune to heals so maybe divine mobs are already trying to heal us to death (again) getting "immune" floating over our heads.
I'll be ok with something like raise dead (or equivalents) dispelling the forms but by the time they give raise dead to mobs and the AI learns to handle it i think the payerbase will have other troubles.
Maybe with the toning down of the light damage arcane mobs can start carrying undeath to death.

[Emili]

I'm on my first TR and actually was planning on sacrificing Mental Toughness for my level 3 TR feat...which I already actually did.

I know we get a free feat swap, but I am not sure which other feat I would wanna live without until level 18.

I do not know what other feats you have at the moment. I do know that lich form is the sweet spot of a PM. Vamp is just not worth it...

To be honest is not so bad that lvl 18 and 20 are the best areas of the PrE. I mean look at kensie .... Kensie II is most the gain of that PrE leaving Kensie III kind of meh. Tempest likewise, Kotc is best go full likewise AA or assasin - yet thier middle tiers less desirable... None of the PrE's are really uniform in scope tiers. I really think wizard and PM does it right in scope outside the vamp form seems the only issue within it.

Level 12 Vamp or Wraith either is 1ap Wraith is better until they address the x4 on vamp is all.

[The_Brave2]

I don't even have enervation memorized on my PM, too many useful level 4 spells already. Energy drain costs a couple extra SP, for double effect anyway!

I agree, iv been debating dropping it to have full time firewall for awhile now. but it is useful for those high fort mobs that need more than just a energy drain. it is defiantly not required, but useful.

Taking my color out of my quote is cruel

[The_Brave2]

As i have said to Truga one problem i can see is that with the current implementation PMs are simply immune to heals so maybe divine mobs are already trying to heal us to death (again) getting "immune" floating over our heads.
I'll be ok with something like raise dead (or equivalents) dispelling the forms but by the time they give raise dead to mobs and the AI learns to handle it i think the payerbase will have other troubles.
Maybe with the toning down of the light damage arcane mobs can start carrying undeath to death.

Raise Dead to enemy mobs.. I like it!!! a boss monster being able to raise the trash mob would be FANTASTIC not being sarcastic here at all btw.

It would make it even more of a rush to kill the divines in a mob, and if you cant, suffering the consequences, I would /sign that.

Having it dispell forms... i dunno about that, seems like it would be spammed and make PM's useless, so I disagree on that front.

Undead to death would be interesting, can PM's be death warded at all since they fixed the problem with neg damage not hitting them though it? Not counting deathblock items, just asking about the spell

[Truga]

Raise Dead to enemy mobs.. I like it!!! a boss monster being able to raise the trash mob would be FANTASTIC not being sarcastic here at all btw.

It would make it even more of a rush to kill the divines in a mob, and if you cant, suffering the consequences, I would /sign that.

Having it dispell forms... i dunno about that, seems like it would be spammed and make PM's useless, so I disagree on that front.

Undead to death would be interesting, can PM's be death warded at all since they fixed the problem with neg damage not hitting them though it? Not counting deathblock items, just asking about the spell

I don't think deathblock would help against undeath to death. Also I'd love to see enemy divines using Turn (Mostly dominate, I guess, since they're mostly evil). It'd be awesome if the PM in your group suddenly used FoD on your cleric and then proceeded to wail your melees. :V

Edit: Yeah, standing in a mass heal with a PM should make you die. Friendly or not. None of that immune ****.