Seriously, PM light damage......nerf it PLZ!!!!

[Ryiah]

If you add to that the fact that there is not a single other Pre that risks being one/two shotted on a regular basis and you have the complaint in a nutshell.

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.

Also as for being one/two-shotted, you should learn when to use and not use your forms. Even if you can dodge the light damage or kill the enemies before they can use it, there are going to be situations when you cannot get away with staying in a form where nobody but yourself can heal you.

Also for those who actually have done this, please don't dump your HP. You can somewhat dump CON and end up with a decent HP still, but I wouldn't recommend that either. I also don't recommend Drow. As much as I dislike running a warforged, losing 1 DC for essentially 4 CON (6 with enhancements which also unlock more Toughness enhancements) is well worth not getting killed quickly. Remember, your DCs are worthless when you are dead.

[The_Brave2]

I disagree with going PM on a WF.... you might as well go AM if you are going to loose the +1 to DC from drow.. Better self healing and SLA's are well worth it.

[Orratti]

Undead take double damage and sometimes more from light spells. Them's the brakes.

I guess you either need to wait for that melee charge to finish taking them out for you or single target them with a spell that will take them out before blasting they whole room and getting their aggro.

Most melee can't be one shotted true but they take alot of shots that casters can avoid. I've seen plenty drop like a rock when smacked by an ogre. Without deathward around they and most others can easily fall to one shot death effects something a pm has no reason to fear.

Don't you guys get undead companions you can use as aggro magnets until you can take out the enemies that are dangerous to you?

As a pale master I believe it would be possible to charm all the doomsphere's companion skellies and have them kill it for you or at least keep it's attention off of you while you cast something effective. I may be wrong and they are immune to being charmed but I could swear I've seen it done before.

[Emili]

As a pale master I believe it would be possible to charm all the doomsphere's companion skellies and have them kill it for you or at least keep it's attention off of you while you cast something effective. I may be wrong and they are immune to being charmed but I could swear I've seen it done before.

Cholthulzz can be a pain as a PM even you can get stat damaged if not warded (sf necklace or such). What's also funny is you cannot restore while in undead form. Cholthulzz is Lawful Good, not sure about undead Pykzyl ... Pykzyl is far easier than Cholthulzz - k boots or sipked boots help there. They nuke fine though.

My advice as always to all wizards is there are other spells outside you specialties which actually do very well... My PM for instance has a high ice spec and a minor force spec outside using necro spells.

I really am all for being more vulnerable to light damage while in PM form.....but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

Make it 1x-2x........seriously, player character PM's are the equivalent of red named dungeon bosses in power....maybe not mega HP-wise, but we shouldn't be equivalent to the trash.......you can't one shot those bosses unless you are doing the content way under your level....why is it we should suffer that fate.

I know I can just turn off form for situations like this and use my hireling.....but the damage taken seems a bit excessive IMO.

I know use tactics, and I do, but when you walk into a room with 2-3 casters spamming light rays...you don't even have time to think....much less react.

Leveling under vamp would be a pain ... but towards end game outside of run with devils and beyond mine is pretty invicible under lich form ... I solo farm edq1 for scrolls a lot lately. The vamp form however was poorly thought out I think, They pretty much added it to the middle to move Lich to the top being it's the best form... wraith is pretty good too.

I played with vamp form because I thought would be cool to play around with a little... teasing guildies wise. ummm, Well anyway I wanted to see how bad it would be so took her into Run with devils elite - they lit her up within a minute. Searing light is obvious but remember sunburst is also almost always instant death too, I used to use the latter spell on black bones is like mass disruption for them.

I recomend Wraith and then Lich... the other two forms are meh or just not worth the pain. While I agree Vamp is bloody bad I also would like to point out there are many useless things in a lot of other class PrE's in fact some entire PrE's are nearly useless ... place your AP in wraith and wait til you reach level and ap for lich.

[Drekisen]

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.

And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.

[delsoboss]

DISCLAIMER: wall of text-ish, approach at your own risk

vVvAianynAvVv, i suggest that you just let this discussion die, there was another thread where player debated this issue and still forumites without any knowledge about PMs kept on saying "it's ok leave, it be".
Many points were raised:
- that the PMs pay for their immunities and self healing basically losing external sources of healing (yeah many clerics and fvs running around with inflict spells, right?);
- that light damage against PMs was already scaled to threat them as undead (so d8 instead of d6 for many spells and such, i've not personally tested this, others did)
- that together with this change PMs turn to dust whie in form as soon as they get to 0 hp (effectively losing 10 hp);
- that in every quest with a divine mob PMs get hit for 90-105 damage/searing light (at level 7);
- that switching in and out of forms is unviable as you have to pay SP to do it and forms are on 1 min cooldowns;
- that if you are out of form you lose way more than half the benefits of the PrE and if you keep using your slas you're going to kill yourself, quickly (ys you can counter this by saying "use other spells, you're a wiz!" and i counter "ok, so elt's make that every 3 quests savants get barred off their element spells and let's see how they enjoy the game" and i'm being generous on the number of quests);
oh and - that PMs in form still drown ("i'm an almighty lich of doom you will" ... cough cough ... "you will di" .... cough cough ... cough ---> hits 0 hp ---> ding).

So there will always be someone that only reasons at cap while the main problem here is leveling and there will always be someone that thinks you're doing it wrong and everything is fine without knowing the issue.

One last point, since many of you forumites always complain about Dev time being wasted here and there and oh my god they're not fixing bugs ecc... , think of it this way: they (the Devs, not meant to be bashing you, just making a point) released vampire form at level 12 with is ridicolous 4x light damage vulnerability and the 0 hp = death change making it practically unviable, and zombie form at level 6 where every mob and his uncle is throwing searing rays for 12 points of damage against your friends and 80-90 against you (and you still don't have death aura and necro burst) ... usefull implementation, right?

[Alternative]

Funny how people who don't play PM are the biggest experts as to what weaknesses they should have. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have? Do tell.

As for searing light damage - it is broken. Searing light already does additional damage to undead, it always did, read the description. Now both bits of damage were doubled, result? Tested just yesterday in pvp:

searing light on human form - 80 damage
searing light on lich form - 240 damage

That's already quadruple right there, I'd like a dev comment that this is what they intended. Would vampire form take double or quadruple of 240? My PM can survive two such hits, and many other things, but for new players this is simply unfair.

Suggested fix: make the supposed double damage actually double, duh.

[The_Brave2]

. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have?

We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

[Emili]

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.

Also as for being one/two-shotted, you should learn when to use and not use your forms. Even if you can dodge the light damage or kill the enemies before they can use it, there are going to be situations when you cannot get away with staying in a form where nobody but yourself can heal you.

Also for those who actually have done this, please don't dump your HP. You can somewhat dump CON and end up with a decent HP still, but I wouldn't recommend that either. I also don't recommend Drow. As much as I dislike running a warforged, losing 1 DC for essentially 4 CON (6 with enhancements which also unlock more Toughness enhancements) is well worth not getting killed quickly. Remember, your DCs are worthless when you are dead.

A max'd con WF with full racial enhancements would not matter if you placed it in vamp form it'd toast anyway, just an added risk of instant death. Unless you place somewhere 'bout 900+hp on him you're playing with fire. 600 or 650 just would be cutting it too close. Will show why.

Funny how people who don't play PM are the biggest experts as to what weaknesses they should have. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have? Do tell.

As for searing light damage - it is broken. Searing light already does additional damage to undead, it always did, read the description. Now both bits of damage were doubled, result? Tested just yesterday in pvp:

searing light on human form - 80 damage
searing light on lich form - 240 damage

That's already quadruple right there, I'd like a dev comment that this is what they intended. Would vampire form take double or quadruple of 240? My PM can survive two such hits, and many other things, but for new players this is simply unfair.

Suggested fix: make the supposed double damage actually double, duh.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 312 points of light damage.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 107 points of light damage.

DD and run for the hills... My gimpy witch survived...

Opps lets go back... I'm a glutten for punishment.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 616 points of light damage.

Ouch! that hurt ... course I took some flame strike damage at first then this was a tad overkill as I was down to bout 430hp at the time.

Mind you was in on elite... and alone. Vamp is just overkill

[Truga]

but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

[delsoboss]

We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

lol. Funny, 2 DCs are a weakness much like 2x damage from something common in every quest right?
Ah right but you can't be healed ... oh wait no you can be healed ...
But you can't self healf ... oh no wait you can self heal too ...
But you don't have undead immunities ... oh wait you got warforged immunities ...
Ah got it! No bonus hp from pre ... oh wait higher con ...
Uhm, at least you deactivate and die at 0 hp ... ah no wait you don't even bleed out (or spill oil or anything) ...
See where this is going?
Oh and if you really care about DCs spam your cheap and quickened-for-free enervation and you will be alright.

[Truga]

We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

Not when you couple it with DoD+shield and 600+ HP it isn't!

Also it's actually 1DC lower I think? +1/2 int can be at best +1 DC, compared to human/drow...

[The_Brave2]

lol. Funny, 2 DCs are a weakness much like 2x damage from something common in every quest right?
Ah right but you can't be healed ... oh wait no you can be healed ...
But you can't self healf ... oh no wait you can self heal too ...
But you don't have undead immunities ... oh wait you got warforged immunities ...
Ah got it! No bonus hp from pre ... oh wait higher con ...
Uhm, at least you deactivate and die at 0 hp ... ah no wait you don't even bleed out (or spill oil or anything) ...
See where this is going?
Oh and if you really care about DCs spam your cheap and quickened-for-free enervation and you will be alright.

-2 DC's is in EVERY quest, while the extra damage is only some quests, undead not getting incapped is part of the game, PRE give you comparable HP to WF.

Most people dont take the SLA's for evervation, too much sp cost for the result.

Sure leveling WF AM is WAY.. and i mean WAY better than PM. but at Cap I'd say that they even out.

dont be so quick to dismiss +2 DC's. +2 to your DC can make a huge difference.

[The_Brave2]

Not when you couple it with DoD+shield and 600+ HP it isn't!

Also it's actually 1DC lower I think? +1/2 int can be at best +1 DC, compared to human/drow...

Drow = +1 DC over WF
PM = +1 Necro DC over AM

so +2 total over WF AM. Id say thats a notable handycap compared to taking some extra light damage. especially at cap.

[delsoboss]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

As has been stated before and proven by others (just read some posts above this) PMs already get the changed dice so right now it's more like 3x on all forms 6x on vampire form.

No one is saying to remove the vulnerability completely but to tone it down caus right now is just a funny way to show big numbers to friends.

Much like people that put big crits in his bio every PM should start putting the damage numbers we suffer in his/her bio, some form of sensibilization that might work maybe ...

[The_Brave2]

As has been stated before and proven by others (just read some posts above this) PMs already get the changed dice so right now it's more like 3x on all forms 6x on vampire form.

No one is saying to remove the vulnerability completely but to tone it down caus right now is just a funny way to show big numbers to friends.

If nothing else, dont use Form in quests with light damage, Its nice to see the all powerfull casters die sometimes.

[delsoboss]

-2 DC's is in EVERY quest, while the extra damage is only some quests, undead not getting incapped is part of the game, PRE give you comparable HP to WF.

Most people dont take the SLA's for evervation, too much sp cost for the result.

Sure leveling WF AM is WAY.. and i mean WAY better than PM. but at Cap I'd say that they even out.

dont be so quick to dismiss +2 DC's. +2 to your DC can make a huge difference.

You roll a 1. You miss the point.

Here we go again ... at cap is a useles sentence here, we're talking about the leveling process mostly, at cap any PM can cast a quickened empowered maximized burst with the boni given by the tier 3 pre and any kind of crazy gear to boost spell damage and be at full health right after a 540 damage searing light, leveling we cannot do this.
BTW 2 dcs can make a huge difference but no one takes enervation? ... ah well ...

[delsoboss]

If nothing else, dont use Form in quests with light damage, Its nice to see the all powerfull casters die sometimes.

you keep rolling 1s ...

Every quest with a divine caster has light damage, i don't have it figured out clearly right now but it can be close to 90% of the quest in game.

[Drekisen]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

Another WF'ed WIZ...are u an AM or a PM....if ur an AM have you ever even played a PM?

[Truga]

Another WF'ed WIZ...are u an AM or a PM....if ur an AM have you ever even played a PM?

I'm a WF PM. Don't have any problems some people describe. Getting hit for 300+ in epics hurts, yes. But at least it's something to look out for.