To: Genasi Re: Epic upgrades and ToD

[grodon9999]

Miyagi say... best defense, no be there.

So tell me, oh sages of the 30% healing amp. If you're not taking damage because:

1) You're not tanking
2) You know how to manage aggro so you don't get the tender attentions of the boss
3) You stay away from the front and side of the boss so you aren't getting hit

How... EXACTLY... is that 30% amp benefiting you? . . .

30% more healing amp mean my ranger can hit himself for 188 on a heal scroll and up to 250 on a maximized CSW.

30% more healing amp and most of my party (we've got a lot of claw-sets now) means my cleric can heal a group 95% of the time using just MCLW and scrolls, rarely have to throw out a mass-heal.

30% more healing amp mean when my ranger is tanking sulu in tower he can be kept alive with RS aura while the cleric dumps all his SP into Divine Punishment.

30% more healing amp mean when my fighter is tanking Horoth his FvS can keep him alive using just scrolls and his free CLW, allowing for massive amounts of Divine Punishment and searing lights.

30% healing amp means bards can easily keep us all alive in Epic Devil Assault.

30% healing amp is better than approx 4% more DPS.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Wow, what a smart post!

Thank you!

Did it occur to you that this means they also did enough DPS to complete those hardest fights without the claw set bonus damage?

Yes.

Neither the 30% amp nor +1 damage and to-hit from a possible strength bracket is needed to complete anything, but the 30% healing amp is more likely to make a difference.

No. The more dps will make more difference in the end because the fight will be over sooner, costing less resources.

And what does "If said horc can survive without it, yes." even mean? There is no hard limit under which you can't survive, and over which you can.

Hard limit? No. Flexible limit? Yes.
"Survive without it" means (for me at least) can stay alive in the expected scenarios of the quests you are running.

Again, 30% healing amp is more likely to make a difference than 1 str.

Apparently we disagree on this.

Squeezing out every single point of STR out of a build at the expense of everything else is only done by retards.

Insults are uncalled for. And I can assure you that I am not a ******. And (probably) neither are the other people who happen to disagree with you.

And by the way, IMHO there is no reason why gloves of the claw should be the best glove item forever for every melee build. Complaining that they aren't 100% perfect for every single melee build is plain stupid and childish, they don't need to and shouldn't be.

Corrected it a bit for you. And again, no reason to insult those who disagree.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

30% more healing amp mean my ranger can hit himself for 188 on a heal scroll and up to 250 on a maximized CSW.

Nice, but very rarely relevant in a group situation.

30% more healing amp and most of my party (we've got a lot of claw-sets now) means my cleric can heal a group 95% of the time using just MCLW and scrolls, rarely have to throw out a mass-heal.

Nice, but hardly necessary anywhere.

30% more healing amp mean when my ranger is tanking sulu in tower he can be kept alive with RS aura while the cleric dumps all his SP into Divine Punishment.

Only because your ranger also has decent ac. Without it, it won't be possible.

30% more healing amp mean when my fighter is tanking Horoth his FvS can keep him alive using just scrolls and his free CLW, allowing for massive amounts of Divine Punishment and searing lights.

Either it's on normal, or your fighter has enough ac to tank on elite.

30% healing amp means bards can easily keep us all alive in Epic Devil Assault.

Only if the bards know what they're doing.
On the other hand, bards that know what they're doing can do it even without the 30% healing amp.

30% healing amp is better than approx 4% more DPS.

If the healer's mana can last, then no.
4% more dps, means 4% faster completion.
So IMO 4% is better.

Those are good examples and nice numbers.
However, they will only be true if the toons are speced to take that kind of advantage.
Pure DPS builds aren't usually that speced for it.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

/sigh...
The fact that it is the best item in the pack doesn't mean that it couldn't use a change.

eSoS(best in pack) got a change. How did that work out?

[NytCrawlr]

... costing less resources.

The 30% healing amp covers this as well.

Seriously, the circular nature of your argument is dizzying.

I'm in agreement with most others here, most of the Fens items could use a look over, the bracers set is not one of them. When most toons, regardless of build, drool over said items, that to me means they are fine. Just because you do not see perfection in them doesn't change that fact.

This item set is so wanted in fact, that despite one or two things not fitting, I still wouldn't mind having it on every one of my melee builds (and even my divine AA build) despite the fact most of them don't even tank.

Let's move on shall we? Perhaps to something a bit more productive, say the Divine Blessing, Shaman's Fury, or Siren's Ward set. Anything but the non-budging back and forth of the bracer's set that doesn't need an upgrade whatsoever.

[Ookami007]

The 30% healing amp covers this as well.

Seriously, the circular nature of your argument is dizzying.

As is yours. The 30% healing amp is good for what... ONE toon... the tank. That's IT.

So.... 1 toon with 30% amp vs 9 toons with 4% more dps... dps wins as far as resources.

Let's take ToD.

ONE tank is tanking Horath.

ONE healer is healing the tank.

ONE mage is kiting orthons.

NINE toons are banging on Horaths back.

So... the only toon that 30% healing amp is good for... is the tank. The other healer is going to be throwing mass heals at the party as they take minimal damage. If the other NINE toons have healing amp... it's insignificant compared to NINE toons swinging weapons that are each hitting for +4 damage PER swing.

Now let's go to Shroud. Hmm... If you need 30% healing amp to survive shroud and you're not soloing it... /reroll. Level 16 toons were doing it back in the day. If you can't do it with epic gear.... /epicfail.

Let's go to Epic Demon Queen. Chances are, even if you have a toon tanking her, everyone else is close by and the healers are mass healing anyway. So the 30% healing amp is marginal... again... compared to the dps quality... it's still the loser in the resource saver.

How about Epic VoN. No tank... mass heals... 30% amp is fairly irrelevant. The healers will spam mass heals centered on one toon and you're still limited by the squishiest toon.

Epic Chrono. Hmm... about the same as the ToD fight. One tank, with his own healer or mass heals on the tank with everyone crowded in close to suck up the mass heals. The healing amp is beneficial to the tank... significantly less to the rest of the toons.

So... I'm trying to see how god-like healing amp is... but that fact is, I have 5 high dps rogues. They usually die in one of two situations... one, the main tank dies because of lag and the boss turns on me and SQUISH, before the healer can readjust heals... I'm dead. Healing amp is meaningless if I'm not getting heals.

The second is... I do something stupid. Healing amp... fairly meaningless in these situations too. And... in this situation, doing something stupid can mean joining the wrong pug...

Healing amp = good. Healing amp < dps for all except tank.

[Ookami007]

I'm in agreement with most others here, most of the Fens items could use a look over, the bracers set is not one of them. When most toons, regardless of build, drool over said items, that to me means they are fine. Just because you do not see perfection in them doesn't change that fact.

People drool over eSoS too. Doesn't mean it's perfect. It's not useful for MANY classes/builds.

Just because some people drool over something doesn't mean it's good... or couldn't use improving.

Some people drool over McDonald's hamburgers. Doesn't mean they couldn't use some improvement.

You're reasoning is flawed.

Take for instance a high dps rogue assassin build. Could they benefit from the +4 damage per swing... absolutely. More so than any THF build. Could they get benefit from the healing amp... yes... tho in a much lesser capacity than the tanks, unless they are soloing. +2 CON? Sure... why not. So why isn't it a must have in every dps assassin build? Because it has 20% incite. And since rogues want to keep the mob looking the other way, the benefits must be weighed vs the potential to steal aggro. After all, there's a reason dps assassin's are running around with 40-60% aggro reduction.

PLUS... unlike tanks... who really need only be concerned about STR and CON... rogues need to be concerned with nearly EVERY stat... STR for dps, DEX for skills and reflex save, CON for hp, INT for skills and CHA for UMD and skills. That's a TON of stat items to have.

Sure, some are situational and can be swapped, but that's the beauty of epic gear... it's customization through slots.

Like I said... I think every Epic should at least have a clear slot... and nothing you've said has changed that and you're case to why 30% healing amp is god-like is relevant to a small subset of toons.

[NytCrawlr]

Call me crazy, but when I roll up a rogue, and I have rolled up a few, the last set I have in mind for getting for them is the claw and bracer set. Bracers by themselves, sure, but despite the bonus to damage to increase your precious DPS, why on earth would you equip a set that gives you MORE threat, like a rogue needs any help with accumulating threat. Removing healing amp to give you a tad more DPS isn't going to solve that problem.

It's best to keep this as the tank item that it is, and evolve something else to be what you are asking for, or here's a thought, create an entire new set.

Never mind the fact that this game, especially in Epics, seem to have this crazy obsession with squeezing as much DPS out as possible to me only tells how broken Epics really is. But that's an argument for another thread and another time, regardless I think non-tanks going for this complete set is not in the best interest of any one, especailly the non-tank toon wearing it.

Like I said... I think every Epic should at least have a clear slot...

Fine, drop the +6 to Strength and add a colorless, now the gloves can be your +6 Str item, or increase you to +7 if you already have a +6 Str item.

[Indoran]

I would also like to see the damage bonus from the epic claw set not stack with the damage bonus from the shintao set, would give people more options with regard to gear layouts instead of needing to wear items with redundant/useless enchantments in order to 'get the best dps'.

Either that or change the shintao set bonus.

hell no... I already grinded my way to having both sets... I dont want that...

[alexp80]

/signed about emproving claw set

Is a nice set already, but we are talking of TWO EPIC items.
No slots is nonsense.

The only effect that is epic (effect that you can't get in non-epic items) is the +4 bonus dmg that is less in dps than charged gauntlets shocking blow (about 4.5/strike) for mobs not immune to lightning (the most) that are also part of a powerful set.

And craft the charged guantlets is a lot easier than crafting the whole claw set.

I will find adeguate adding slots AND +7 str to make them at best level, a real alternative in power to charged gauntlets.

[grgurius]

/signed about emproving claw set

Is a nice set already, but we are talking of TWO EPIC items.
No slots is nonsense.

The only effect that is epic (effect that you can't get in non-epic items) is the +4 bonus dmg that is less in dps than charged gauntlets shocking blow (about 4.5/strike) for mobs not immune to lightning (the most) that are also part of a powerful set.

And craft the charged guantlets is a lot easier than crafting the whole claw set.

I will find adeguate adding slots AND +7 str to make them at best level, a real alternative in power to charged gauntlets.

Then wear charged gauntlets, i don't see a problem there.

If gloves or bracers of the claw were underpowered items i would understand pleas for a change, but they are pretty good items. Just because they don't fit your gear layout is not a reason to change them, there's a lot of sad epic items out there that need improvement.

[CoasterHops]

Updating the Claw set or individual items is not really necessary, upgrading these two items plus the set effect itself would just ensure that they would be the go to items for every non rogue melee capable lvl 20 toon running around.

As it is there are at present several gear set ups that can be utilised by many melee builds but if these items got upgraded then they would be the only gear set up worth getting.

To all those saying that 30% healing amp is only good for tanks are they serious?

Healing amp has alot of positive things going for it:
-Tanking, more heals.
-Any warforged non arcane build, higher cures/heals from divines.
-Any build using self healing methods, eg scrolls.
-Easier scroll healing from anyone.
-More healing taken from the lower level divine individual spells as well as lower value divine masses. (EDQ 2)

Having 30% healing amp with such other great set/item attributes is awesome, this gear doesnt need changing, it's the other near useless gear that competes with it that does!

Just remember there is a reason why the gloves and bracer scrolls are the most expensive/sort after scroll on any server not counting certain desert raid and the ESOS scroll.

[spyderwolf]

The only effect that is epic (effect that you can't get in non-epic items) is the +4 bonus dmg that is less in dps than charged gauntlets shocking blow (about 4.5/strike) for mobs not immune to lightning (the most) that are also part of a powerful set.

completely false.

the 4 from the set multiplies on crits. so on a frenzy 3 using an esos thats 7.4 damage per hit on average.

on anyone using a khop, thats (on their main hand) 5.4 per hit (not sure if its same or lower on off hand)