To: Genasi Re: Epic upgrades and ToD

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I have to disagree the survivability my ac exploiter tank has gained with that 30% healing is really high.
It means that a good bard can keep both me and the suulu party going on hard. Getting healed off scrolls for >300hp
is huge imo. As is getting healed for 400hp off a silver flame pot. On an actual proper tank it means you can
have two bards keep him up on horoth (again something we did on hard). Even on a non AC tank the extra
amp means that you can use heal scrolls as a good heal in the cycle instead of something that's a liability.

As long as your ac is high enough, that same bard can keep you up with or without the 30% healing amp.

And again, I'm not claiming that the healing amp is not useful, I'm claiming that it's secondary to the dps boost the set provides, and as such will be discarded if a better dps option presents itself.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

I'm not sure you nailed it with the Claw set.

I think there were a few more steps required that you missed out on:
For the bracers, also add Protection +6; Luck +2 and Heightened Awareness. Perhaps also a stacking +4 natural armour bonus?

Then give the Gloves a clicky like the Titan Grip gloves - except make it 5/day and recharge 5 each day. The gloves might also benefit from Greater Spearblock.



No?

And after that they should unerf the eSoS and add force burst and force blast to it!

Suggesting the claw set needs an upgrade is lunacy.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

And after that they should unerf the eSoS and add force burst and force blast to it!

Suggesting the claw set needs an upgrade is lunacy.

And throwing into the air a hyperbole with no coherent explanation equals mass murder!!!

[svinja]

And if you don't agree with me, ask yourself this: If I had 2 versions of those gloves, one with 30% healing amp, and one with +7 str, which would I prefer on my pure dps horc?

Do you seriously not understand that 30% healing amp is far more beneficial than 1 extra strength, especially on a "pure dps horc"? Wow...

[grgurius]

Do you seriously not understand that 30% healing amp is far more beneficial than 1 extra strength, especially on a "pure dps horc"? Wow...

Hey, +1 strenght could be +1 to damage, thats more dps. Not like its my job to stay alive is it, thats what nanny i mean healing classes are for.

[Skavenaps]

Hey, +1 strenght could be +1 to damage, thats more dps. Not like its my job to stay alive is it, thats what nanny i mean healing classes are for.

cause when you are dead, your dps hit the roof right...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Do you seriously not understand that 30% healing amp is far more beneficial than 1 extra strength, especially on a "pure dps horc"? Wow...

If said horc can survive without it, yes.

Breaking news, this just in: A fleshy dps type can easily survive without extra 30% healing amp! Apparently they could do it in the hardest fights even before the the epic claw set ever came out!!!

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Hey, +1 strenght could be +1 to damage, thats more dps. Not like its my job to stay alive is it, thats what nanny i mean healing classes are for.

And again, I'll reiterate:
The 30% doesn't really help the healer that throws a Heal spell at you. All it will do is overheal you.
The 30% does help you when you want to self heal (on a melee it usually means that you have umd for heal scrolls or silver flame pots). In most situations (at end game) it's not that relevant unless you are soloing.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

cause when you are dead, your dps hit the roof right...

Sarcasm check fail...

[grgurius]

@Burning

I agree, you can live without 30% heal amp, and most of the people aim for the set bonus.

However, i find heal amp more useful then some minor dps bonus. With high heal amp, healer wont be using heals, he'll use csw instead, or heal scrolls. To classes that have better potential for self healing, heal amp is even more valuable.

Thats ofc only my opinion, and i can agree that we disagree on this mater.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

@Burning

I agree, you can live without 30% heal amp, and most of the people aim for the set bonus.

However, i find heal amp more useful then some minor dps bonus. With high heal amp, healer wont be using heals, he'll use csw instead, or heal scrolls. To classes that have better potential for self healing, heal amp is even more valuable.

Thats ofc only my opinion, and i can agree that we disagree on this mater.

I can live with that.
+1 for not flaming or calling me a lunatic.

[Sarisa]

That 30% Amp means that instead of having to throw a heal SPELL, they can throw a heal SCROLL and a single target Cure Mod or a FvS Capstone cure. Saving massive amounts of resources for long, drawn out fights like Elite Horoth.

Having a high amp tank on Horoth means that usually one less healer is needed to keep him or her up, and you can add another DPS'er to fight Sully and make the whole raid faster.

It's not just helping you personally in self-healing situations, it's helping the whole group succeed.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

That 30% Amp means that instead of having to throw a heal SPELL, they can throw a heal SCROLL and a single target Cure Mod or a FvS Capstone cure. Saving massive amounts of resources for long, drawn out fights like Elite Horoth.

Having a high amp tank on Horoth means that usually one less healer is needed to keep him or her up, and you can add another DPS'er to fight Sully and make the whole raid faster.

It's not just helping you personally in self-healing situations, it's helping the whole group succeed.

Yes, on a specialized tank that could be true.
(Mind you it's only true if said tank also has high enough AC. Without it, no mater how much healing amp you have stacked on them, one healer is not enough.)

Now, lets get back to the max dps build that is not a specialized tank:
They are max DPS. They want MORE DPS. That is what they are built for. If something better than than the claw set comes along (dps wise), which will require them to give up the 30% healing amp, they will. They'll just keep the 20% on their ToD ring and call it a day (they might keep the Claw set when thy are required to tank or for soloing, but that's about it).

[Wrendd]

Yes, on a specialized tank that could be true.
(Mind you it's only true if said tank also has high enough AC. Without it, no mater how much healing amp you have stacked on them, one healer is not enough.)

Now, lets get back to the max dps build that is not a specialized tank:
They are max DPS. They want MORE DPS. That is what they are built for. If something better than than the claw set comes along (dps wise), which will require them to give up the 30% healing amp, they will. They'll just keep the 20% on their ToD ring and call it a day (they might keep the Claw set when thy are required to tank or for soloing, but that's about it).

(green to highlight the point I wish to address)

And that is the way it should be, IMO. There should be a balance between pure DPS and other aspects of a character. I prefer the heal amp, especially because I play a WF. But I can see somone else wnating to skip the heal amp and go for more DPS (if that was an option). The devs do not seem to be looking to make the "ultimate" epic item here, nor should they be.

IMO, an epic item should give at least 1 excellent bonus (such as +4 damage set bonus) + 1 useful bonus (30% heal amp) OR a desired bonus that typically appears in a different slot + a standard bonus (+6 STR). The base stats of armor or weapons must also be reasonable for epic content. But, there is plenty of room for my suggested formula to be dispensed with. If one of the bonuses provided by an epic item is FAR better than usually found then there is room for tha item to skip other bonuses.

Look at the eSoS.. it has no force burst (or fire, or ice, or whatever), it adds no + to a stat. It simply does pure damage, at a much higher rate than any other weapon in DDO. You could even look at the +10 as the "excellent bonus" I mentioned, and the improved crit profile as another "excellent bonus", and the 5d6 damage as my suggested "useful bonus". The analogy is not rock solid, but it works with a little stretching.

Also look at the Belt of the Mrorannon, it has +7STR (excellent bonus) +Heavy Fortification (useful bonus) + Toughness (useful bonus), and a yellow slot (covers the standard bonus in its slot). The problem with the belt is that it competes (and fails, for most builds) with ToD belts. If there were alternatives to the ToD sets then this belt would become a great item.

I think the eClaw set is as good as we can reasonably expect it to be. The +6 STR may be redundant on most builds, but so what? I have +6 CON on my necklace,, my armor and +7 CON on my cloak. I wear those items for the other things they give me, and if the price I pay is a redundant bonus, I am happy to pay it.

[Ookami007]

Miyagi say... best defense, no be there.

So tell me, oh sages of the 30% healing amp. If you're not taking damage because:

1) You're not tanking
2) You know how to manage aggro so you don't get the tender attentions of the boss
3) You stay away from the front and side of the boss so you aren't getting hit

How... EXACTLY... is that 30% amp benefiting you?

30% healing amp is GREAT... in SOME situations... to SOME toons.

It is FAR, FAR from the most awesome coolness in the game. Not even close.

It might be the most awesome coolness to a TANK, whose job it is to take the punishment. But an arcane archer, standing far off plugging the boss with arrows without ever getting hit once might disagree.

Seriously... some of you REALLY need to examine how you play the game if the difference between you succeeding or failing is your 30% healing amp.

There ARE methods of playing the game that DO NOT involve smashing the boss mobs with your face.... repeatedly.

I stand by my claim that the Fens gear needs an upgrade. Perhaps not a green slot, but I did mention at least a clear slot - and I'd prefer a yellow.

One thing most of you single minded face bashers are forgetting is that ... yes... there ARE more people in the raid than the tank who desperately needs his 30% healing amp.

Let's take the rogues, for example... or the tempest ranger. Especially the rogues are taking a HIT with the set, because although they now get +4 damage per swing... they're also dealing with the Incite bonus, so they're generating more hate. By adding a slot, the rogues can possibly free up another slot for more hate management gear/sets.

As I said before. One of the things that differentiate a regular piece of gear from an epic piece.... is the customization. Just that little bit of customization makes all the difference. Gear consolidation/slot consolidation is what epic is all about.

[voodoogroves]

Yeah but that set doesn't need an upgrade. That set is already probably one of the better (best?) gear sets for tons of folks. Maybe you don't need the 30% amp. If half the melees are aiming for that set anyway, is improving it because some folks don't need the 30% the right thing to do?

[Bufo_Alvarius]

And throwing into the air a hyperbole with no coherent explanation equals mass murder!!!

You got me. The most sought after and best item set (did i really need to say this??) in the pack needs an upgrade! Silly me...


Venom set upgrade? agree
ToD Set upgrades? for sure
Claw Set upgrade? .....

[BurningDownTheHouse]

You got me. The most sought after and best item set (did i really need to say this??) in the pack needs an upgrade! Silly me...

/sigh...
The fact that it is the best item in the pack doesn't mean that it couldn't use a change.

Venom set upgrade? agree
ToD Set upgrades? for sure
Claw Set upgrade? yep couldn't hurt

Did I get it right?

[grodon9999]

Hey, +1 strenght could be +1 to damage, thats more dps. Not like its my job to stay alive is it, thats what nanny i mean healing classes are for.

I'm pretty sure he's being sarcastic.

The sad thing is many actually share this view.

[svinja]

If said horc can survive without it, yes.

Breaking news, this just in: A fleshy dps type can easily survive without extra 30% healing amp! Apparently they could do it in the hardest fights even before the the epic claw set ever came out!!!

Wow, what a smart post! Did it occur to you that this means they also did enough DPS to complete those hardest fights without the claw set bonus damage? Neither the 30% amp nor +1 damage and to-hit from a possible strength bracket is needed to complete anything, but the 30% healing amp is more likely to make a difference.

And what does "If said horc can survive without it, yes." even mean? There is no hard limit under which you can't survive, and over which you can. Again, 30% healing amp is more likely to make a difference than 1 str. Squeezing out every single point of STR out of a build at the expense of everything else is only done by retards.

And by the way, there is no reason why gloves of the claw should be the best glove item forever for every melee build. Complaining that they aren't 100% perfect for every single melee build is plain stupid and childish, they don't need to and shouldn't be.