Caale - TWF'ing evasion AC/hate tank

[Claymorep]

My feelings gived me reason as calculating his dps the result is between 1/2 or 3/5 in the best case of a equally top epic geared dps. The lack of exalted smite and dm 1 added with the use of scimitars vs kopeshes is too big to compensate with 3d6 extra sneak attacks.

Don't have data to evaluate his saving trows, but near sure he will have some problems to save him in elite as:
Disintegrate need 44 (let's hope he saves this)
Meteor swarm 36 reflex
Chain lighting is a mere 35
Sunburst 33
Shout 48
Delayed blast fireball 35

Dots are: ca 135-230
Medal of cruel pain: ca 45-70
Badge of death: ca 45-80
Honor of fools: ca 45-80

These data are taken from tests done by combat log during some elite runs. They aren't perfectly (for example vs a disintegrate a 2+49 was enought but a 7+35 was not) and had some deduction too by Sirgog, other guilds and wiki, so don't take them as law, but they are a good approximation.

His build is a great duty and nothing is wrong, the fact is that if he is doing this build for vod or tod it's a good build with the limits tanks have from the game mechanics, not his foult. As I said I'm studiing a similar build but I think if I can't hit his ac numbers (that are very very good for a pally) without sacrifiing too much saves I'll select a dr/saves/evasion guy that can stay around 450 dps (near 85/90% of real dps).

Edit. Forgot a personal consideration... At the state of the game seems no real use of a near pure tank and the ac mechanic is so gear-extensive that is anyway a no way to follow during normal questing. A good mix about pally should be dps and ac build that is away from possibilities at the state of the game. A dos is a nice pre, but even in not rushing zerging quests fell too limited. Ty a lot for some ideas I din't considerate.

[Calebro]

Don't have data to evaluate his saving trows, but near sure he will have some problems to save him in elite as:
Disintegrate need 44 (let's hope he saves this)
Meteor swarm 36 reflex
Chain lighting is a mere 35
Sunburst 33
Shout 48
Delayed blast fireball 35

As it says in the OP, his saves are high enough. He has evasion and is only failing on a 1.
Get his AC high enough and he's only getting hit on a 20 (and it is possible to do so).
That removes the majority of the spell damage and the majority of the melee damage from the equation.
With exceptions from spike damage due to those two occurrences mentioned above, DoTs are the only thing he will take damage from.

Saves
Fort	Ref	Will
12	6	6	Paladin
3	3	3	Monk
6	6	6	Aura
5	5	5	Cha
4	4	4	GH
2	2	2	Luck
10	7	7	Stat
5	5	5	Resist Item
1	1	1	Alchemical Resist
0	1	0	haste
3	3	3	sacred/stance
2	2	2	Protection from evil
51	43	42	STANDING	
2	2	2	Ship Buffs (stat boosts and kobold)
	-4	-4	Yugoloth Pot
53	41	40

And that's in the non-epic gear setup without any exceptional bonuses to anything.
Like I said, his saves are high enough. An extra point or two from a higher Cha isn't going to make a difference.
Shout is the highest Fort save, and he passes that by 5 points.
Meteor Swarm is the highest Ref save, and he passes that by 5 points, even with a yugo pot penalty.

He still only fails on a 1 without the extra Cha, even if he loses his ship buffs. So like the OP says, they are plenty high enough.
Get the Epic gear set and it gets even easier.

My feelings gived me reason as calculating his dps the result is between 1/2 or 3/5 in the best case of a equally top epic geared dps. The lack of exalted smite and dm 1 added with the use of scimitars vs kopeshes is too big to compensate with 3d6 extra sneak attacks.

I haven't verified those numbers, but my instinct is that they're a little low on your end.
Even if they are correct, with the previous information at hand as far as his defensive capabilities, 1/2 - 3/5 of top tier DPS is absolutely acceptable. In fact, it's still higher than you're going to get from a random pugger in most cases, and you're getting it on a nigh-unkillable tank. And as long as he has a little head start, his hate gen will be enough to hold aggro, even with the lower actual DPS values.
1/2 - 3/5 of the top tier DPS is a heck of a lot better than you're going to find on the majority of builds that can achieve these kinds of defenses, and it's better than you're going to find from the majority of random puggers.
So as I stated, he's not top tier DPS by any stretch, but he can carry his weight enough to warrant a party slot without being considered a piker as most AC builds are when not tanking.
3/5 seems a little low-balled to me, but even if it isn't it's acceptable considering the defenses. You have to give a little to get a little.

[Calebro]

With the changes coming to DoS in U11, the weakest point in this build is getting a boost.
+20% HP in DoS3 Superior Defensive Stance will bring his tanking HP to just under 800 (795 if my calculations are correct and the +20% applies after buffs rather than prior to), which will be a most welcome change.

[zehrubens2]

Hey there !
ive never played a tanker before so i was wondering...
Do you think u can tank ANY boss in ddo right now with this build with the "normal" gear listed, not the epics one?
even considering U11.
And one more thing why Dual scimmys and not Dual kopeshes? sry for the noob question lol
thank you cya

[Calebro]

Hey there !
ive never played a tanker before so i was wondering...
Do you think u can tank ANY boss in ddo right now with this build with the "normal" gear listed, not the epics one?
even considering U11.
And one more thing why Dual scimmys and not Dual kopeshes? sry for the noob question lol
thank you cya

With the normal gear set-up, fully buffed with a ranger and bard in the group, his AC potential is 85.
With 5 points from ship buffs, that makes 90.
With a competent arcane to exhaust him for you, that's an effective 93.
In order to be hit only on a 20 by elite Horoth, you need to get to 94.

So in the normal gear set-up, with a competent and balanced party, you'll only get hit by elite Horoth on a 19. Elite Horoth sets the bar at the moment. That's about to change when u11 goes live. I haven't done either of the new raids, so I can't make claims about the numbers on either of those at this time, but from the looks of it, from what research has been done, he'll be fine on normal, and decent on hard.
From what I've seen, there isn't an AC build that I'm aware of that can reach the numbers needed for elite for the new Lord of Blades raid that will be coming.
So to answer your question, Yes. He can handle any non-epic boss in the game at the moment. We'll see whether or not that changes when u11 goes live.

As for scimitars vs khopeshes:
If you want to spend a feat for them and lower your AC by one point, that would be your choice.
Everyone praises khopeshes a bit more than they deserve in my opinion. They're better, but whether or not they so much better that it warrants spending a feat on a feat starved build is up to you. I personally don't think it's worth the feat cost on this build. To be honest, I personally don't think it's worth the feat cost for many builds.
I am in the extreme minority with that opinion.

[zehrubens2]

thank you for your reply =] nice build

[zehrubens2]

hey its me again.
another noob question xD

Combat exprt. and PA stack? u have both for versatility right?
and one more thing the past life monk its for the once per rest click? or it was the past life u had? is it the best past life on this build?
thank you again sry for all the quations

[Calebro]

hey its me again.
another noob question xD

Combat exprt. and PA stack? u have both for versatility right?
and one more thing the past life monk its for the once per rest click? or it was the past life u had? is it the best past life on this build?
thank you again sry for all the quations

Combat Expertise and Power Attack do not stack. They're both combat stances. If you activate one, the other deactivates.
Power Attack is for general use, Combat Expertise is for when you're tanking and need the extra 5 AC that it provides. Depending on party make up and buffs provided, you can run normal raids and some hard raids with PA on rather than CE, and still only be hit on a 20. It all depends on the situation at hand.

The past life feat listed isn't the active, it's the passive. He had a monk past life. I apologize if that confused you.

[RenigadeWolf]

Wouldn't you pull a bit more standard AC out if you wore the Epic Scorched Bracers, and a Mabar cloak? this also gets you 5 DR, Deathblock, Invis guard, Greater Fire resist (for if you die ect) but you do loose +1 Con, +1 to saves (slotting +4 Resistance in something or another. you have more than enough slots) And this also leaves your trinket open to a Bloodstone for a bit higher DPS (or drop into Head of Good Fortune if you feel your saves are too low)

[Calebro]

Wouldn't you pull a bit more standard AC out if you wore the Epic Scorched Bracers, and a Mabar cloak? this also gets you 5 DR, Deathblock, Invis guard, Greater Fire resist (for if you die ect) but you do loose +1 Con, +1 to saves (slotting +4 Resistance in something or another. you have more than enough slots) And this also leaves your trinket open to a Bloodstone for a bit higher DPS (or drop into Head of Good Fortune if you feel your saves are too low)

The Mabar cloak isn't available to every player. Maybe they weren't playing when Mabar was here. Maybe they didn't make one when it was going on. And the Epic Scorched Bracers could easily replace the AC 8 bracers listed.
You could alter the epic gear set in any way you felt the desire to.
This build is designed to be accessible to a player that does not want to grind for a lot of epic gear, and it succeeds at that, being a workable build without a single epic item.
Feel free to alter the epic gear set in any way that you like.

[RenigadeWolf]

The Mabar cloak isn't available to every player. Maybe they weren't playing when Mabar was here. Maybe they didn't make one when it was going on. And the Epic Scorched Bracers could easily replace the AC 8 bracers listed.
You could alter the epic gear set in any way you felt the desire to.
This build is designed to be accessible to a player that does not want to grind for a lot of epic gear, and it succeeds at that, being a workable build without a single epic item.
Feel free to alter the epic gear set in any way that you like.

Was simply curious on your thoughts on the matter. thank you

[Calebro]

Was simply curious on your thoughts on the matter. thank you

To be honest, I find grinding epics to be annoying at best, and godawful boring at worst. As such, I wanted to design a viable AC tank that didn't need any epic items at all. In so doing, I ended up with what can work as a fist life 32 point build if desired, while still meeting the benchmarks needed for AC tanking, and not being a waste of a slot when not tanking. And all that with what can be considered a minimal gear layout compared to similar builds.
This is an AC tank for a casual player, that can be adjusted for the more hardcore gamer if desired by simply swapping some gear.

[Feithlin]

An option in your gear would be use epic Grim's bracelet on the neck (+3 dodge in u11) and use epic Seal of the earth in place of the chattering ring (+6 natural) or another ToD ring (opening a potential addition of +3 exceptional). You should end up with a bit more AC. The main problem the, though, would be to find a place for your GS HP item.

*Edit: On a further look, you could use epic Scorched bracers with epic Helm of the Frost and epic Charged gauntlets for Abishai, and use the cloak slot for either the epic Cloak of the night. For your HP item, maybe the more efficient would be to drop the epic Googles of time-sensing (loosing 1 AC from the loss of +2 eWis unless you put it into your ToD ring) and replace it with GS con opp HP googles (+6 Wis, +45 HP and con opp).

[paraplegic]

Have you ever tried to tank LOB? if so how it went?

[Calebro]

Have you ever tried to tank LOB? if so how it went?

Not yet. I'm Preemy, and the packs just became available this morning I think.

[Ashro]

how would the base stats be for a 32pt build with no true reincarnation and +3 superior ability tome? Im trying to do the math but im not very good at it

[Calebro]

how would the base stats be for a 32pt build with no true reincarnation and +3 superior ability tome? Im trying to do the math but im not very good at it

32 points and a +3 supreme tome would actually change the build quite a bit due to differing skills and a change to the second monk level.
I'll make some changes for you and post them here.

OK, the problem that I'm running into with 32/+3s is I'm not sure whether you're willing/able to LR later or eat any +1 or +2 tomes before you get your +3s available. If so, it would be built a certain way. If not, it would be built a different way. Basically, if you'd later do an LR or eat a +1 tome earlier, then Dex can start at 14. If not, then it can't.

Let me know what you have to work with / are willing to do, and then I'll make the needed changes.
Are you willing to LR later?
If not, are you willing to buy (from AH or store) any +1 or +2 tomes prior to eating your +3 supreme?

Answering these will help me get the build right for you. Personally I would answer "No" to both of them, but that case leaves a difficult stat distribution initially.

[Ashro]

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually have decided to do the completionist so that would make it a 36pt build if this would be the final life right? That being said, what would the base stats look like with a +3 supreme ability tome to all stats while making use of the +7 dex ring and +7 str gloves from CC t2? Sorry for the confusion regarding the 32 build, thank you for your time.

[Calebro]

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually have decided to do the completionist so that would make it a 36pt build if this would be the final life right? That being said, what would the base stats look like with a +3 supreme ability tome to all stats while making use of the +7 dex ring and +7 str gloves from CC t2? Sorry for the confusion regarding the 32 build, thank you for your time.

Are you asking me to build a 36 point completionist for this for you to look at?
If so, things would be DRASTICALLY different, and would need to be tailor made depending on what you'd have accumulated throughout those other dozen lives. Remember, this is a build tailor made for semi-newbies, not a build designed for a hardcore grinder. A completionist plan would certainly be a completely different build.

And to be honest, you won't have to worry about it for probably about a year unless you're a massive speed leveler/grinder.
From the fact that this would be a 32 point build for you I'm guessing that isn't the case.

So now I'm confused as to what you'd like me to answer, and what direction you want to go in.

[Ashro]

Thanks for the heads up about the completionist. I guess there is a lot more to it than I thought. Im going to run this 32 build you made as is for my pally life. Great build and thanks for putting this together.