To extend or not to extend....

[DoctorWhofan]

Interesting statistic you have there.

I don't know many Sorc's that have extend these days.

MY sorcerer at level 6 has it. I am saving Lockina free feat swap to exchange it @ 13 or so. It is very useful at low levels, but a high levels, not so much.

[xtchizobr]

Your nuts not to take extend.

I read all this nonsense in the forums, but on khyber 99% of sorcs still have it. the 1% that dont get declined from my groups.

Why?

DDO is a group game. You dont join a group as a sorc and refuse to buff.

If you do buff - which you will.. Extend saves you a lot of SP and more importantly time. More time to cast other stuff and your allies needing to ask for buffs less often is what lets you have more "fun"

maybe the 99% of idiots that you play with.

i think it is you who gets declined from groups who can make it to the next shrine inside an hour...

[azrael4h]

Sorcerer feats are tight, but replacing your 1 worst feat with extend will never break your character. The standard setup of any good sorc includes really only 3 mandatory feats - well 4 with savant: max, emp, heighten, and 1 focus. That leaves you 3 to play with on most sorcs, and 4 on a human - more then enough to fit it.

I can count on 0 hands the number of times I've had melees group for haste and rage. I've stopped trying, and as I'm not going to caste aoe buffs for each individual, I just drop them once centered on me. Miss it, tough. Suck less, rock more. While this isn't necessarily directed at you, it is pointing out that while you may pull bad casters in your group, good casters have pulled far too many bad melees in theirs. It goes both ways.

Extend is not a factor in being a bad player, after all the very worst players I have ever seen have all been Barbarians. Both as playing skill goes and as someone who I'd group with based on their actions and personality in-game. Yet I don't deny Barbarians a spot in my LFMs, because while I may not have lived in my mother's basement for 5 years to play DDO, I do know that there is very few places that require a specific party makeup. I don't even care if clerics or fvs don't join, since I know a Bard can solo heal pretty much anything quite easily if he's built right, and the party doesn't suck.

Now, as for feats:

You left out toughness, which is pretty much a requirement on a d4 class in ddo. So that means a typical Sorc will have 2 (3 human) feats to play with. Not 3-4.

Now, depending on build, either two spell focuses in Enchantment or Necro will be better than taking Extend; having mass hold or wail succeed more often means less sp spent on recasting those spells. Alternately, a Wizard past life has the same effect, but much better, if you have access to it. That means only a human sorc actually has any spare feats. And even in that case, you might want a spell pen feat, particularly on a under-geared sorc. For the second-life+ Sorc with a Wizard PL, that may fit in there is addition to the focuses.

Finally, Quicken is a solid choice even for a Sorc; it means that those spells go off, preventing a bad concentration roll. For a WF Sorc, I'd say Quicken for Reconstruct is required. For others, particularly under-geared ones, making sure the spells go off is never a bad thing, though fitting it in is a pain. It's an option, which I'd take before Extend since Extend no longer works on anything but buffs.

That leaves only the pure nuker as having spare feats. In which case, you are right, Extend is probably the best option. For the Sorc who also intends to insta-kill or do crowd control, they have 0 spare feats for extend. And it's debatable whether or not that would have an effect on sp usage; I didn't have any issues with sp on my Cleric after dumping it. But then, Clerics have a sparse spell list that needs serious serious love, whereas a Sorc actually has an abundance of offensive options.

For my human Sorc, I have no room for it. I planned on two focuses in Necro, as well as the four mandatory ones (emp, Max, Heighten, SF: Evo or Conj) Toughness, and Spell pen. To be frank, I'm tempted to dump spell pen for Quicken, even though I but I certainly would want both. I've never had an issue getting a spell off, but I have occasionally seen a blue shield, so spell pen it is. I want my Wail and FoD to land, every time it can.

I do wish my Cleric past life (which gives +1 Conj DC) qualified me for Savant. I might fit in extend then.

[danotmano1998]

Very strong opinions in here, and many are good.
To me and the way I play, extend is a waste.

As a caster, I always try and save my party as much as possible. That includes 4 spells, typically.
1. Haste (Really, can't be beat. 11 people attacking and running faster? Yup.)
2. Rage (Hard to beat the +2 to con that stacks. more HP = better chance of living)
3. Blur. (20% misschance on that. Lasts for 20 minutes. Hard to beat this one as well.)
4. Whatever elemental protections they may need based on the quest we're running.

None of my characters have extend. None of these buffs really need extending, IMO.
I'm focusing on my character playing to the best of his ability. Keeping haste and rage on is great. Blowing away that boss with 1,000hp crits every tick? Even better.

I can see where people can argue that this is still a viable feat. For the very small percentage of spells that actually can use them, that is. That's where it falls short.

It's not the utility of the feat I'm debating, simply the number of applications that it is useful for as opposed to the number of applications of a feat such as toughness or quicken, or maximize, or spell focuses.

I see those feats as being more useful in every application, as opposed to a very narrow use spectrum.

[Lycurgus]

Next weeks topic: Enlarge, no enlarge? Do you really want your casters entering the dungeon, or is it better to have them throw an enlarged, extended, material eschewed haste from a nice, safe spot at the entrance?

[Chai]

Your nuts not to take extend.

I read all this nonsense in the forums, but on khyber 99% of sorcs still have it. the 1% that dont get declined from my groups.

Why?

DDO is a group game. You dont join a group as a sorc and refuse to buff.

If you do buff - which you will.. Extend saves you a lot of SP and more importantly time. More time to cast other stuff and your allies needing to ask for buffs less often is what lets you have more "fun"

LOL

What do people still carry extend for? Haste?

20 minute buffs are fine. Im more than happy to rebuff if we go more than 20 minutes between shrines, which is rare nowdays.

Waste of a feat now that it doesnt work on offensive spells. Quicken is much better, especially if youre a WF and want to heal in a pinch. You get to have more "fun" while playing, and not as a soulstone waiting for a res.

[furbyoats]

Example: VoN6epic pug:
With some groups bases aren't always quite super fast and perfect.. So they take a little over 2 minutes in some runs. In almots all runs I do, there is not a caster on each base. Haste/Displacement runs out on that base, things can go bad.

Funny, I didn't realize Ice Storm, Delayed Blast Fireball, and Chain Lightning had to make a roll to connect through displacement...

Also, I really do not find it challenging to carry haste pots on my non arcanes to fill the short gap in dropping the pillars...pots aren't exactly expensive bud.

[Bunker]

3 spells

Haste
Rage
Displacement

Sure you could use extend for the buff spells that are 1 min/lvl but honestly 40 minute buffs aren't needed 99.99% of the time. So basically we are talking about haste, rage and displacement. Just not worth the feat slot.

[goodspeed]

Next weeks topic: Enlarge, no enlarge? Do you really want your casters entering the dungeon, or is it better to have them throw an enlarged, extended, material eschewed haste from a nice, safe spot at the entrance?

Of course take those, only the most leet mages do. Forget about empower max or heighten. Only teh noob casters fire anything but constant stone skin.

I'm guessing the remaining 1% of mages Got themselves some healers and then did 10 instances to the other 99%'s 2.

lol tor runs must be epic feats on hard.

[Merlocke]

$^%& extend.

[Beer_Dude]

LOL

What do people still carry extend for? Haste?

20 minute buffs are fine. Im more than happy to rebuff if we go more than 20 minutes between shrines, which is rare nowdays.

Waste of a feat now that it doesnt work on offensive spells. Quicken is much better, especially if youre a WF and want to heal in a pinch. You get to have more "fun" while playing, and not as a soulstone waiting for a res.

You missed the point. He only cares about his fun playing not yours. As he has stated in many a run "your blue bar is for me and to keep me buffed and alive". Yet he uses the team player card in his first post in this thread. The bottom line is it doesn't benefit him so you should not do it that way.

[krackythehoodedone]

For me dont take extend go with quicken.

If you have to choose between the two

Which i did.

I am talking from A Clerics Perspective.

20 minute Buffs are all you need. Tell me a run where it takes 40 mins to get from shrine to shrine. So apart from a few short duration buffs it makes no difference.

Missing a Mass Heal because you dont have Quicken is far more serious for the party

Put it this way..Far easier having a living Shade moaning at ya cos ur buffs are useless

Rather than Shades Shade never letting you live it down for letting him die

[Thrudh]

Interesting statistic you have there.

I don't know many Sorc's that have extend these days.

The good sorcs do more DPS than Shade, and have zero interest in joining his groups anyway.

[Beer_Dude]

the Good Sorcs Do More Dps Than Shade, And Have Zero Interest In Joining His Groups Anyway.

+1

[Thrudh]

Example: VoN6epic pug:
With some groups bases aren't always quite super fast and perfect.. So they take a little over 2 minutes in some runs. In almots all runs I do, there is not a caster on each base. Haste/Displacement runs out on that base, things can go bad.

Good melee carry haste and displacement clickables. Poor melee cry for extended hastes (or even any haste).

I can even do epics WITHOUT a caster... It's amazing! Meanwhile you decline them because you won't do it unless they have extended haste.

[Tarackian]

Yet another reason i never group with you.

Your nuts not to take extend.

I read all this nonsense in the forums, but on khyber 99% of sorcs still have it. the 1% that dont get declined from my groups.

Why?

DDO is a group game. You dont join a group as a sorc and refuse to buff.

If you do buff - which you will.. Extend saves you a lot of SP and more importantly time. More time to cast other stuff and your allies needing to ask for buffs less often is what lets you have more "fun"

[goodspeed]

Good melee carry haste and displacement clickables. Poor melee cry for extended hastes (or even any haste).

I can even do epics WITHOUT a caster... It's amazing! Meanwhile you decline them because you won't do it unless they have extended haste.

I know right? I'm practically a walking apothecary on my monk and barb. I've got stacks of haste, bark, hero, cures, removals. It's not even that much just buying from a vender. 75pp unhaggled for the top stuff.

Don't get me wrong a mages buffs can make things far easier. If I can get a stoneskin and a blur im more then happy. But literally needing mage buffs so that your class can be good makes you worthless. *** would you do without a mage? Oh that's right blame the healer lol.

You created a character, don't expect someone to hold your hand through the game. The means are more then enough there to be great even for a full on free player.

[Gunga]

Again in green

I dont think any of the sorcs in revenants have extend. I think it is a useless feat now on a sorc. Im seeing more and more sorcs without it and I approve. Whether im receiving the hastes or giving them 2 min will do fine.

N

Yes.

[Thorzian]

i've seen a lot of posts in this thread that say drop extend and take quicken.. why the **** would you not already have quicken? you're a sorc. if you want to drop anything drop spell pen. while not a useless feat instakill spells are not very thematic with a nuking sorc.

i'm on my 3rd sorc life on my sorc who will have 3/3/3 past lives of sorc/wiz/fvs. even with 1 less dc then final there are very few "evade's" when i blast. and thats on a warforge. you want spell pen get past life wiz or fvs... or both! there's more spell pen there then feats will ever give.

i like having haste/rage/displace on at all times. 1 feat to cast them half as often is not at all a waste to me. my dc's are high due to past lives. my spell pen is high due to past lives. that leaves meta's and i take em.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Rather rude, you don't know what im looking for.

Better players that can handle more then just healing/buffing are the ones that have extend. The ones that dont are almots always poor players.

Smart players understand the SP savings and fact buffs make a huge difference and simply aren't easy or often even possible to maintain without it.

OP: Sounds like you had your mind made up long before you created this thread, rather pointless.

As others have covered, extend is a waste on such a feat starved class.

However, I think what really needs to be made clear is that forcing players to take extend is reinforcing lazy playing and reducing their opportunity to learn there class to its fullest extent. If you have a problem with bad players then teach them how to be good players, don't teach them how to be lazy bad players.

Regarding the ops question, I have PL:initiate of the faith (cleric PL) on my Sorc which has been great leveling up. It's quite possible to heal for 2/3 of life with it with max/empower/superior ardor 5/day which covers the in combat healing, scroll/wand healing covers the slightly less intense healing requirements. I have the option of getting rid of it at 20 but will probably keep it until I TR again.

I don't have quicken (already cover non-interruptible healing, I'd only take quicken on a WF sorc for recons).
I don't have toughness (I'm well geared and will have comfortable HP).
I do have (greater) spell pen, I didn't want to take these but there are numerous excellent no save, SR spells which make the feats worthwhile. There are also a few save/sr spells which are useful in certain circumstances.

Edit: fixed a typo and wanted to mention that as far as SP savings go for the 3 primary uses (rage/haste/displace) you're only looking at a 25 SP/cast extended vs 15*2/cast non extended for 25 SP saved per spell every 20 minutes or 75 for all 3. It really isn't a big deal.