Wizards out there

[Lycurgus]

If you go monk you get a free feat for toughness and another free feat for concentration or more save bonus, or something else on the limited list. And a stance. That feat you possibly would have spent on toughness is freed up for another feat. Technically splashing 2 monk levels increases your total number of feats.

I'm guessing you were looking at a rogue splash?

Past lives for SR usually aren't used to increase SR anyway. They are normally used to not take spell penetration feats. More feats are better than more SR.

The monk splash is a good idea for freeing up the feat. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regarding spell resistance, I was referring to mob spell resistance as something to be overcome through spell pen. As in, a first life toon has a snowball's chance in hell of reliably overcoming epic drow spell resistance.

[DaSawks]

Are you including Insightful Reflexes in your comparison?

With insightful reflex, a wizard probably has the best reflex save of any class in the game except dex-based rogues and monks, so that evasion will likely mean no dmg 95% of the time. Even without evasion, it means 50% less dmg 95% of the time, quite a good investment of a feat imo.

Nope this time. I do have IR on my WF Wizard and that makes up for the "loss" of evasion. If you are a solo artist then the 2 levels of Rogue can sometimes be helpful for Disable devise.

I love IR too. Even without evasion. It is awesome. Way better than nice.

[Doxmaster]

Is the OP ever coming back?

[Phidius]

The monk splash is a good idea for freeing up the feat. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regarding spell resistance, I was referring to mob spell resistance as something to be overcome through spell pen. As in, a first life toon has a snowball's chance in hell of reliably overcoming epic drow spell resistance.

20 (levels) + 4 (feats) + 3 (enhancements) = 27 compared to the epic drow's 45 SR (presuming we're talking about 9th level spells).

While I doubt that a snowball has a 15% chance to survive in hell, it sounds about right for the caster's efficiency in epics.

Even an 18/2 has a 5% chance...

[Lycurgus]

20 (levels) + 4 (feats) + 3 (enhancements) = 27 compared to the epic drow's 45 SR (presuming we're talking about 9th level spells).

While I doubt that a snowball has a 15% chance to survive in hell, it sounds about right for the caster's efficiency in epics.

Even an 18/2 has a 5% chance...

Do you consider that to be reliable?

[Aashrym]

Do you consider that to be reliable?

Using spells that have no SR check absolutely.

It just takes more than a couple of past lives to make an increase in spell penetration that someone wouldn't take as another feat instead. We can't all have 4 or more past lives. It takes too long.

[fool101]

20 (levels) + 4 (feats) + 3 (enhancements) = 27 compared to the epic drow's 45 SR (presuming we're talking about 9th level spells).

While I doubt that a snowball has a 15% chance to survive in hell, it sounds about right for the caster's efficiency in epics.

Even an 18/2 has a 5% chance...

again - elf

+4 spell pen is pretty expensive through enhancements, but +3 isn't nearly as bad (6APs). or you can mix and match, to get +4 total (2 class, 2 race) for 9 APs; or +5 (2 class, 3 race) for 12 APs.

But assuming one took all 3 race enhancements, an elf would then have a 20% on an 18/2 in the above example.

Elves are one of the friendliest for 1st lifers. for TR's, then DC benefits of other races becomes more relevant IMO.

[sirjohn45]

For everyone I appreciate all the feedback......now with all this being said...between human and Drow what would be the best to make a full wizard with and can someone even if its PM a good build please.
I just want a fun time this time around and looking at end game since i never got there last time.
Again thanks for all your hard effort to help me with this...........

[Phidius]

Do you consider that to be reliable?

Heavens, no.

It's just not quite as bleak as you painted it.

again - elf

+4 spell pen is pretty expensive through enhancements, but +3 isn't nearly as bad (6APs). or you can mix and match, to get +4 total (2 class, 2 race) for 9 APs; or +5 (2 class, 3 race) for 12 APs.

But assuming one took all 3 race enhancements, an elf would then have a 20% on an 18/2 in the above example.

Elves are one of the friendliest for 1st lifers. for TR's, then DC benefits of other races becomes more relevant IMO.

20% still sucks. The advantage of higher SR isn't much of an advantage, as you don't need the extra for the non epic-drow, and you can't use the extra for the epic drow.

[Lycurgus]

Heavens, no.

It's just not quite as bleak as you painted it..

I stated: "a first life toon has a snowball's chance in hell of reliably overcoming epic drow spell resistance." Bleak or not, it's accurate....unless you consider a 5-15% chance of landing a spell to be reliable.

[Horkrux]

the extra 1 DC and discount on metamagics are the only min/max way to go if u plan on doing epics.

actually if you want to MIN/MAX drow max dc is at on odd number so there is no reason to not go human..


just sayin there 'if you plan on doin epics'

[Phidius]

I stated: "a first life toon has a snowball's chance in hell of reliably overcoming epic drow spell resistance." Bleak or not, it's accurate....unless you consider a 5-15% chance of landing a spell to be reliable.

Thanks for highlighting in yellow... I did indeed miss that qualification.

But isn't that kinda like saying "always sometimes", or "probably certain"?

We're on the same page now, though.

[xtchizobr]

This is incorrect.

Wiz 18 / rog 2 and wiz 18 / monk 2 are both viable. Evasion isn't everything but it is worth considering and both classes do offer a bit more than just evasion.

namely, the UMD'd Heal and Rez scrolls from wiz/rogs... the de-trapping is wonderful while leveling and doing PUGs, and the Evasion is simply godlike with IR, so the increased survival along with self and group heals more than makes up for the -3 or so save DCs on your spells. Ennervation and buffs and Cloud spells, etc. can mitigate your slightly lower offensive capabilities when it actually matters. let the meatshields do their job, don't bother nuking trash.

but if you don't have UMD on your Wiz/Rog, you wasted your character.

for the benefit of anyone interested in Wiz/Rogs, what follows is a mini-guide (mostly just rambling anecdotal advice).

i don't really remember how i started my wiz/rog... there's a thread around here somewhere. i think i started with wiz and took Rogue at level 2 and 9 to keep traps and UMD maxed. i don't remember what my starting CHA was, but i'm thinking it was 12 or 14 (WF are such lovable studs, i don't know why they have a penalty to their CHA. sigh.). you definitely can't afford any penalty to your CHA, though. took Toughness and Extend at first (was way before the Extend nerf. it's utterly worthless now.), and then Maximize, Mental Toughness and Heighten eventually (around level 12ish is when you can start making use of Heighten, but when you get it, you need to consider it a cardinal ability).

you need the M. Toughness for AM PrE now, of course, and Maximize is the most efficient of the nuking Metas, but with Extend so useless now, would definitely swap it for Empower even at low levels. you need to take Insightful Reflexes, it's absolutely not negotiable (it's one of the few reasons to build a wiz/rog after all), and i believe you can do that at level 9 when you take your second Rogue level to gain Evasion and a working Reflex in one fell swoop. i also took Skill Focus: UMD because +3 stacking UMD is almost impossible to find any where else, and this particular bonus stacks with everything. you don't need to rush it, but it will make a difference around mid-levels when your UMD starts getting high enough to use things that matter (the first time you Rez the Cleric will probably give you priapism). always remember to keep your STR above 12 or 13 because Ray of Enfeeblement is no joke. since STR loses out to CHA during creation, don't fret, because a +4 item will do plenty well enough, and WF have way more room in their equipment because of their racial immunities.

stay away from the AM PrE SLAs, they're mostly just a great way to waste SP for a Wiz/Rog. you're 2 levels below a pure Wiz, so you need to be that much more conservative and tactical with your spell slingin'. bring buffs and utility more than raw damage -- combining the arcane with the trap monkey saves your group a slot to bring a slab of beefcake instead of the halfling rogue, so consider damage to be last on your to-do list. when you do throw nukes, use the ones that don't allow saves or which provide other benefits. FW in Delera, of course, but that also means Cloudkill in Gianthold and Acid Fog in the desert (bonus points now that they stack kinda....). Disco Ball, Web and other persistent spells will require multiple saves from victims, making them much more likely to have an effect even when you aren't Heightening them, so they're worth much more compared to their SP cost than others, like Hold, Dominate, Slow or Blind (in the case of the former, they actually get frequent saves to break free so you need exceptionally high DCs to make decent use of them). but when you do want to use a "save or die" (nothin' wrong with the Finger...), you should definitely consider throwing a cheap debuff like Curse or especially Despair first. the new and improved Hypnosis is suddenly god-tier (so the SLA for it might be worth the AP, if you can actually spare any. it's a cheap enough spell anyway, though) as is Despair because of their unresistable -Will debuff (i'm undecided about Mind Fog, but they are not mutually exclusive, and they actually make Mind Fog easier to land anyway. MF + Disco = easymode). don't forget about the extremely powerful Waves of Exhaustion which doesn't allow any save and is AoE besides!

the trick to playing a Wiz/Rog is to understand that your value to the party is not related to how frantic you are in combat. learn to sit back, relax and pick your moment. not all encounters are worth spending SP on, remember that killing things doesn't directly reward you anything at all: nothing's worth anything if you can't complete the quest. so stay alive, keep others alive, and seek contentment outside big orange numbers. if you need to see four-digit numbers floating around to be happy, DDO just isn't the game for you.

[Viisari]

stay away from the AM PrE SLAs, they're mostly just a great way to waste SP for a Wiz/Rog.

Nonsense, 3sp web is easily the best spell in the game. Hypno and resistable dance SLA's also rock. Others aren't too good.

Waves of exhaustion isn't really good for much except debuffing AC anymore, which is only really important in some epics. It's a waste of SP against trash because they'll be dead soon anyway. It also has a spell resistance check, and most mobs you'd want to use it against have a very high spell resistance.

Charisma is also only important if you don't have much gear. My pure wiz can get 39 UMD with 14 starting charisma, but with a rogue splash you can get 12 points more in UMD which means you can dump charisma easily. If you don't have any gear (like GS charisma-skill equipment, golden cartouche etc.) then getting some charisma is worth it.

[svinja]

20% still sucks. The advantage of higher SR isn't much of an advantage, as you don't need the extra for the non epic-drow, and you can't use the extra for the epic drow.

This is a good point, I would however say EChrono is an exception, and the SR there seems to be right around the number where an average wizard would benefit a lot from a few more points of spell pen. I have no idea what the numbers are, I just noticed that in EChrono SR gets in the way not often enough to worry me or make spells not worth casting, but often enough to be annoying.

[jaegarnel]

namely, the UMD'd Heal and Rez scrolls from wiz/rogs... the de-trapping is wonderful while leveling and doing PUGs, and the Evasion is simply godlike with IR, so the increased survival along with self and group heals more than makes up for the -3 or so save DCs on your spells. Ennervation and buffs and Cloud spells, etc. can mitigate your slightly lower offensive capabilities when it actually matters. let the meatshields do their job, don't bother nuking trash.

more than makes up? That entirely depends on what you want to do, you lose 2 caster levels, 1 dc, slightly more efficient metamagic, about 200 sp.
You also lose one feat and gain more skill access, trapsmithing and evasion from a rogue, you gain 1 feat and evasion from monk.
Whether it's worth it is entirely up to your playstyle.



stay away from the AM PrE SLAs, they're mostly just a great way to waste SP for a Wiz/Rog. you're 2 levels below a pure Wiz, so you need to be that much more conservative and tactical with your spell slingin'.
Some of the AM SLAs are amazing since they get metamagics for free. If you find yourself using a spell very often, then having it in a SLA will save you sp even if it costs you some max sp. I cast web about 20+ times per quest, having it cost me only 3 sp instead of around 45 is a huge mana saver. The first two enchantment SLAs are just as great.
In the same way, the evocation SLAs can be a great way to nuke cheaply while leveling.


bring buffs and utility more than raw damage -- combining the arcane with the trap monkey saves your group a slot to bring a slab of beefcake instead of the halfling rogue, so consider damage to be last on your to-do list. when you do throw nukes, use the ones that don't allow saves or which provide other benefits.

what you bring to a quest should be situational. The huge advantage of being a wizard instead of a sorc id that you can bring the right spell for the quest. If you're doing an undead-heavy quest, bringing fire wall and other dmg spells will be your main contribution. If you're doing Amrath quests and your DCs are on the low side to land there, then do bring saves debuff and no save dmg spells.
As for the rogue comment, you ARE aware that the halfling rogue will do more dmg against low-fort mobs right?

FW in Delera, of course, but that also means Cloudkill in Gianthold and Acid Fog in the desert (bonus points now that they stack kinda....). Disco Ball, Web and other persistent spells will require multiple saves from victims, making them much more likely to have an effect even when you aren't Heightening them,
you should always have heighten on when casting CC spells unless the mob will only save on a 3 or 4 even without heighten

but when you do want to use a "save or die" (nothin' wrong with the Finger...), you should definitely consider throwing a cheap debuff like Curse or especially Despair first. the new and improved Hypnosis is suddenly god-tier (so the SLA for it might be worth the AP, if you can actually spare any. it's a cheap enough spell anyway, though) as is Despair because of their unresistable -Will debuff (i'm undecided about Mind Fog, but they are not mutually exclusive, and they actually make Mind Fog easier to land anyway. MF + Disco = easymode). don't forget about the extremely powerful Waves of Exhaustion which doesn't allow any save and is AoE besides!

the only no-save save debuff are despair and hypnotism for will (and yes the hypno SLA is very much worth 1 AP, 1 sp instead of 10 when you cast it at every mob pack you come across saves you lots of sp, plus you can actually heighten it for free and use it as a CC spell instead of just as a save debuff) and solid fog for reflex. If you need to cast a despair then a curse to land your insta-kill spells, then it takes you way too long to cast them and you should just let the melee kill trash mobs. If you need a save debuff to land your insta-kills use enervation.
Mind Fog is nice in theory, but you shouldn't need a -10 will save debuff unless your DCs are really bad, in which case mind fog will rarely land.
Waves of exhaustion is only worth it against epic mobs, anything else including non-immune bosses dies way too fast, and nukes or CC will be a much better use of sp.

Answers in red

[xtchizobr]

Nonsense, 3sp web is easily the best spell in the game. Hypno and resistable dance SLA's also rock. Others aren't too good.

hence the "mostly" that i used...

Waves of exhaustion isn't really good for much except debuffing AC anymore, which is only really important in some epics. It's a waste of SP against trash because they'll be dead soon anyway. It also has a spell resistance check, and most mobs you'd want to use it against have a very high spell resistance.

... since when was high SR a good reason to not do anything? there's plenty of feats and enhancements to increase your SR penetration, and i didn't suggest spamming it against trash either. i mentioned its good points, and they are still excellent features of the spell -- anything beyond that is just your strawman.

Charisma is also only important if you don't have much gear. My pure wiz can get 39 UMD with 14 starting charisma, but with a rogue splash you can get 12 points more in UMD which means you can dump charisma easily. If you don't have any gear (like GS charisma-skill equipment, golden cartouche etc.) then getting some charisma is worth it.

and, pray tell, how are you supposed to have that gear before getting it? what about casual players? what about players unwilling to throw a few hundred dollars around to buy TRs and adventure packs and whatever else?

Whether it's worth it is entirely up to your playstyle.

which was already said several times.

Some of the AM SLAs are amazing

hence the "mostly" that i used...

As for the rogue comment, you ARE aware that the halfling rogue will do more dmg against low-fort mobs right?

i'm intensely aware that you totally didn't understand what i said. i said that a tanky warrior type could do more damage while being tankier than a pure rogue, which is is absolutely true. the fact of the matter is that if you don't need a pure rogue for traps, then you just don't need a pure rogue at all.

you should always have heighten on when casting CC spells unless the mob will only save on a 3 or 4 even without heighten

this is completely irrelevant. even with Heighten, chances to attack your target with multiple saves per spell are still superior, and Heighten still doesn't remove the -3 from your DCs since you're a wiz/rog. so... you basically just wanted to chime in and said nothing important at all.

the hypno SLA is very much worth 1 AP

sometimes. but you should take into consideration that Enchantment is a very DC-dependent school, and you're already at -3 to your DCs. it's a nifty little trick to have around, but it's not a priority by any means. there's more important things to spend AP on before you ever need to worry about SLAs.

you shouldn't need a -10 will save debuff unless your DCs are really bad, in which case mind fog will rarely land.

aren't you the one who raved about how necessary Heighten was...? aren't you the one who recommended Ennervation to land spells...? Ennervation is a single-target Ray spell. Mind Fog is persistent. they have to keep making saves against it, and it will land very quickly. Mind Fog and Disco Ball are still the ultimate CC combination allowing you to solo many waves of trash. you ARE aware that you need to solo sometimes and you can be more effective against low-will mobs, right?

Waves of exhaustion is only worth it against epic mobs

so now suddenly you've found a good reason to keep Waves around... well, yes. amazingly enough, there's a situation suitable for just about any spell, congratulations for figuring that out after you bashed the strawman all to hell.

here's a nifty link just for your information and general enrichment. maybe you'll be more constructive next time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_fallacy

[jaegarnel]

which was already said several times.

And it bears repeating. I just noticed you didn't include that disclaimer in your post, instead making a blanket statement that "the increased survival [...] more than makes up for the -3 dcs or so on your spells".


hence the "mostly" that i used...
you may have said "mostly", but that was after saying "stay away from the AM PrE SLAs". No qualifiers in there that I can see...



i'm intensely aware that you totally didn't understand what i said. i said that a tanky warrior type could do more damage while being tankier than a pure rogue, which is is absolutely true. the fact of the matter is that if you don't need a pure rogue for traps, then you just don't need a pure rogue at all.

and I'm intensely aware that you didn't adress what I actually said, i.e. that the squishy rogue will do more damage than the tanky warrior against a zero fort mob if he's getting sneak attacks. Rogues are dps and have a use beyond trapsmithing you know.



this is completely irrelevant. even with Heighten, chances to attack your target with multiple saves per spell are still superior, and Heighten still doesn't remove the -3 from your DCs since you're a wiz/rog. so... you basically just wanted to chime in and said nothing important at all.
ok, first if your heightened spell lands the vast majority of the time (and heighten can mean a 7 DC difference in the case of web for instance), you very likely don't need multiple spells, and laying multiple spells without any reason is a waste of time and sp. Sorcs can afford to cast lots of spells to make up for their lower DCs, because they have a lot of sp. A wiz/rogue splash likely can't.
Second, where exactly did you get that a wiz/rogue will have -3 dc compared to a pure wiz? All you lose if you splash 2 levels of rogue is 1 dc from the capstone, 2 caster levels, 1 class feat and the slightly reduced metamagic costs. If splashing rogue cost -3 DCs nobody would do it.



sometimes. but you should take into consideration that Enchantment is a very DC-dependent school, and you're already at -3 to your DCs. it's a nifty little trick to have around, but it's not a priority by any means. there's more important things to spend AP on before you ever need to worry about SLAs.
again, where does that -3 DC you keep repeating come from?
FYI, it's because enchantment is a very DC-dependent school that a 1sp -3 will save debuff is so great.



aren't you the one who raved about how necessary Heighten was...? aren't you the one who recommended Ennervation to land spells...? Ennervation is a single-target Ray spell. Mind Fog is persistent. they have to keep making saves against it, and it will land very quickly. Mind Fog and Disco Ball are still the ultimate CC combination allowing you to solo many waves of trash. you ARE aware that you need to solo sometimes and you can be more effective against low-will mobs, right?
Indeed I did. All I'm saying is, if you need the -10 to will saves from mind fog to land a sphere of dancing, the mobs are very likely to make their will save against it. If you don't need it, then you can just use the -3 saves from hypnotism that costs a lot less sp and is faster. Of course, if you can keep them in the fog long enough, they'll probably roll a 1 eventually, but by then either they or you will probably be dead.



so now suddenly you've found a good reason to keep Waves around... well, yes. amazingly enough, there's a situation suitable for just about any spell, congratulations for figuring that out after you bashed the strawman all to hell.
Hmm that was my only comment about waves of exhaustion, so why the suddenly? I was just saying that calling waves of exhaustion amazing when it's only useful in a very small portion of the game that only a minority of players is exaggerated in a thread started by someone who wants advice on how to build a new PM. He's still quite a ways of from epic.
And yes, most spells can be situationally useful, where did I ever say otherwise? Some are just better than others, however. Just look at how similar most endgame arcane casters' spellbooks are if you don't believe me. I'd wager most of them are 90% the same.

here's a nifty link just for your information and general enrichment. maybe you'll be more constructive next time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_fallacy

Considering I quoted your exact words, I don't think you've quite understood what a strawman is. And frankly, being so defensive about your post does not help you being taken seriously, and neither do the inaccuracies.

Answers in red again, though I'm beginning to wonder why I bother considering you're not even trying to consider what I actually posted.

[Viisari]

sometimes. but you should take into consideration that Enchantment is a very DC-dependent school, and you're already at -3 to your DCs. it's a nifty little trick to have around, but it's not a priority by any means. there's more important things to spend AP on before you ever need to worry about SLAs.

Where do you get -3 dc? Only dc related thing you lose by 2 levels of splashing is capstone which means -1 dc.

If you need to cast a despair then a curse to land your insta-kill spells, then it takes you way too long to cast them and you should just let the melee kill trash mobs.

1. Get quicken
2. Turn it on
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

Get quicken, use it, love it, never turn it off.

[The_Brave2]

Get quicken, use it, love it, never turn it off.

this.