Shield Mastery

[Blank_Zero]

Just picked up the Scroll for the Warding shield for 150k plat.

Looking into going for 2 Rogue as well, but we'll see about that...

[wiglin]

Lelo explains the benefits for a palemaster in his thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=leloric

I would work on 3 wizard past lives for the passive spell pen, then on my final life drop all spell pen feats and take the two shield feats. A palemasters survivability lies in damage mitigation. If you are having to use negative energy burst too much then you need better gear and a new playstyle. A well geared pm has alot to gain from shield mastery.

A warforged sorc or archmage on the other hand has a much more spell sufficient use of burst healing via reconstruct, and the dr gained from shield mastery is not worth the feat investment for me.

It comes down to two different playstyles and preferences.

[The_Brave2]

Also the plan for most of us is to always carry the shield not as a "Oh &$!&" measure

Carrying a shield at all times is a huge waste imo, and heres why:

you cant get your necromancy and enchantment focus at the same time, and yea, I know your argument:
Epic Spectacles of Spirit Sight

But then where is your GS item?

so baisicaly you cant use the full epic abashi set, so you loose: +3 profane con, +2 if you are already using litany

So you are trading potentially +40 hp to use a shield at all times

So my question: is that worth it?

I find on my WF Archmage I hardly block at all unless im trying to get SP back, at which point I will switch to a shield, in any mainstream epics im either CCing everything or im wailing it, so very little is hitting me, this should be even more evident on a PM like you are saying... having a possible +2 Necro DC over me as a drow/human PM over my WF.

So:
Is blocking the mobs more useful to the party or is wailing them, throwing a disco ball, web, circle of death, finger, PK, exc.

is the DR so worth it that in a mainstream quest using a shield at all times is usefull?
You are saying baisicly:
Normal mob in an epic quest hits for about... 30? 40?
15% off of that is about 4-6 damage per hit you are getting from your shield. you get hit.. about 8-10 times and you have gotten more than that 40hp would of gotten you, right?

Hold on for a second... that cant be right. most of the damage thats going to hurt you is going to be spells, if you have evasion that isnt a problem, so how much is shield mastery really going to help you out? improve your survivability a tiny bit?

Im mainly pointing all of this out since Personally I dont get hit that much in epics, and would much rather have the benefits of 40hp and inherit resists so I dont have to cast them, thats another 30SP per resist that you would normal need, so now you are trading 30sp*(number of resists needed in that quest) + 40HP +Extend for 4-6extra DR for running around.

Is it all that necessary when you are already getting a bunch of DR from being a PM, demons consort/boon of undeath/death aura/Stoneskin I dont think that the % increase is worth it to improve your survivability.

[budalic]

Lots of text.

Your arguments are starting to get mixed, contradictory and rather hard to follow.

First, contradictory and doesn't-make-sense stuff:

1) You can't have demon consort bracers and full abishai set.

2) All robes with Boon of undeath have greater necro focus on them.

So, to conclude, as a Pale Master I'm not trading anything even by your line of reasoning (since I can get extend, shield mastery, 2x focus items and full abishai set. Not that I want all of those things, but...)

Second, silly arguments:

1) 120 SP is a lot? Wow... I wonder why you dont advocate taking Mental gimpness and Improved mental gimpness... Anyway, less SP spent on healing makes up for this with shield mastery.

2) Having Greater enchantment focus is important? Closest I've came to constant CCing outside of eChrono recently (and I did play lot of different stuff, ranging from Red Fens to eDQ1) is my buddy WF sorc constatnly shieldblocking bunch of mobs in Acid Rain, and me using web to stop scorpions from going underground in brute-force eClaw, eDQ1 and stuff.

3) 40 more hp (witch just raises your max hp cap) is better than 15% damage reduction (which affects how fast you lose hp)? Really?

Third, more serious arguments:

1. Spell damage is huge factor, true... but most spells do only 200 dam on failed save, excluding Disintegrate (which doesn't care for evasion) and light stuff (which can chomp pales really well). However, reducing melee damage is both constantly useful and helps you a lot.

2. IMO, full epic abishai isn't really worth sacraficing item slots for an arcane caster... and 3-part one isn't that amazing too. Two useful items are e Boots of corrosion and e Envenomed cloak, with e Bracers also somewhat good for green slot. I'm currently thinking about collecting rather strange set of gear, using fixed weapon/shield slot items (conc-op weapon with exceptional stat bonuses and light&darkness-to be upgraded later into eKund Warding) with swapping rings for greater off-school focuses (in order of importance - conjuration (web), transmutation (flesh to stone - good vs. mages), evocation (prism spray - useful vs. drow) and enchantment (mass hold - for epic trolls)).

3. Regarding dual focus again, if i'm not mistaken, you can craft greater whatever focus on a mithral shield - thus giving you full time use shield with focus. Only bad thing for a non-pale is that you both focus and Life Shield are prefixes (lifeshield doesn't work on pales in form - I tested it). Also, you can craft rings (as mentioned above).

[Alavatar]

Interesting discussion ...

A couple notes:

1) Full Epic Abashai set is a waste. If you really need that 20 - 40 HP create yourself a GS +45 HP item and save yourself the other slots.

2) Greater Enchantment Focus is available for the Trinket slot with the new content that came out. If you really need it you can swap the Eardweller for that this trinket after you have used the Eardweller.

3) I see a lot of builds not taking Spell Penetration feats or enhancements with the justification that there aren't that many epic quests with Spell Resistance. Granted, in the easy ones that is true, but that is not the case in EChrono, Elite Amrath, and EDA where Demons and Devils are prevalent. But, if you don't care about those 3 areas I suppose Spell Penetration not being a top priority is reasonable.

Personally, I can see the Shield Mastery feat being useful on Divine casters because (a) they already have Shield proficiency and (b) they are not affected by ASF so they can use the Tower Shields from HoX. However, it sounds like it is more effort than it is worth for an Arcane. Just my opinion, though...

[Failedlegend]

Personally, I can see the Shield Mastery feat being useful on Divine casters because (a) they already have Shield proficiency and (b) they are not affected by ASF so they can use the Tower Shields from HoX. However, it sounds like it is more effort than it is worth for an Arcane. Just my opinion, though...

1. ASF is easily defeated either through shields with no ASF or items that reduce it so thats a moot point

2. Only Fighters get tower shield prof for free

3. Clerics & FvS only get 7 feats, Wizards get 12-13 (2 rogue is commonly splashed losing 1 feat) so even with the free shield prof wizards still have 4-5 feats over divines

Actually the not taking spell pen isn't because a few mobs dont have spell esistance its because for every passive past life wizard you obtain you get more free spell pen thus you really don't need the extra spell pen. Even on a first life caster you can get away without taking spell pen feats.

[The_Brave2]

Your arguments are starting to get mixed, contradictory and rather hard to follow.

First, contradictory and doesn't-make-sense stuff:

1) You can't have demon consort bracers and full abishai set.
Point taken, in my rant i was comparing my AM to a PM, saying 40hp over demons consort, my apologies

So, to conclude, as a Pale Master I'm not trading anything even by your line of reasoning (since I can get extend, shield mastery, 2x focus items and full abishai set. Not that I want all of those things, but...)
You are missing Ment toughness/imp ment toughness. or as you call them gimpness. with that reasoning why even bother with a GS SP item? or Archmagi? its silly.



1) 120 SP is a lot? Wow... I wonder why you dont advocate taking Mental gimpness and Improved mental gimpness... Anyway, less SP spent on healing makes up for this with shield mastery.

Yep, taking mental toughness and imp ment toughness adds a nice SP boost to your pool. they add up you know, all those little sp boosts.

2) Having Greater enchantment focus is important?

Absolutly. have you ever run eDA? the most effective caster playing is a combination if CC and insta Death
3) 40 more hp (witch just raises your max hp cap) is better than 15% damage reduction (which affects how fast you lose hp)? Really?

Absolutly, o_O 40HP and the GS, possibly this could be incorrect for some PM's but i think your DR is already high enough with proc's. Being able to hit 600+ HP on my Wiz is... kinda nice.

Third, more serious arguments:


2. IMO, full epic abishai isn't really worth sacraficing item slots for an arcane caster... and 3-part one isn't that amazing too.
3-piece abashi gives +3 CL to your polar ray, niac's, and eladars. well worth having. the 5 piece is worth it for the hp on a AM wizard, not for a PM since you need bracers of the demons consort

3. Regarding dual focus again, if i'm not mistaken, you can craft greater whatever focus on a mithral shield
Then your not using an Epic shield for more DR, however I did forget that the robes with boon of undeath had necro focus on them, giving you your dual focus with a enchant scepter in your main hand, so you may have something there.

answers in blue

I still argue that the % increase it adds to your survivability isnt worth having for anything short of tanking horoth.

[Alavatar]

1. ASF is easily defeated either through shields with no ASF or items that reduce it so thats a moot point

This limits you to specific shields.

2. Only Fighters get tower shield prof for free

You don't need Tower Shield proficiency to use benefit from the Shield Mastery passive DR.

3. Clerics & FvS only get 7 feats, Wizards get 12-13 (2 rogue is commonly splashed losing 1 feat) so even with the free shield prof wizards still have 4-5 feats over divines

Personal opinion. On a wizard I prefer getting the Wizard PL feat, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and a secondary Spell Focus. Where-as on a Cleric or FvS you don't necessarily need to have a lot of Spell Penetration or DC improving feats so a feat used for Shield Mastery can easily be fit in.

Actually the not taking spell pen isn't because a few mobs dont have spell esistance its because for every passive past life wizard you obtain you get more free spell pen thus you really don't need the extra spell pen. Even on a first life caster you can get away without taking spell pen feats.

This has not been my experience. Even with a Spell Penetration 31 (single TR wizard) I notice that I fail about 25% of the time in epics with Devils / Demons and about 15% of the time in Elite Amrath.

[Khellendros13]

Smrti, you know what kills me when farming chrono?

A pack of 8 devils I have gathered up or spell damage from multiple Abishai/Acolytes.

I understand what you are trying to do, but when you need to choose between Shield Mastery and Insightful Reflexes, IR is gona save you more hp where it counts, unless you want to solo DQ1.

Tanking Horath? I'll take the half damage on spells.

Spellcasters in Epics? I'll take the half damage on spells again and stay standing after cometfall

If you are talking about tanking Horath, you need to worry about HP before 15% less melee damage.

Is a Wizard feat starved? IMO yes, since they have so many feats that make a big difference. Spell foci, Spell Pen, Metas, HP etc.

My Feats on a second life WF Archmage:

Quicken
Max
Emp
Heighten
MT
SF: Necro
GSF: Necro
SF: Conj
Spell Pen x2
Insightful Reflexes
Wiz past life

self buff to 505 hp without toughness.

Also, Eladars and Niacs DoT's hold agro just fine on Sulu in ToD.

If you want a self sustaining Horath/Sulu/Epic boss tank I would make a Cha focused Tukaw with the Shield Mastery feat. Then in Epic's you are more useful than most AC builds built for ToD.

Just how I see it.

[Failedlegend]

Smrti, you know what kills me when farming chrono?

A pack of 8 devils I have gathered up or spell damage from multiple Abishai/Acolytes.

I understand what you are trying to do, but when you need to choose between Shield Mastery and Insightful Reflexes, IR is gona save you more hp where it counts, unless you want to solo DQ1.

Tanking Horath? I'll take the half damage on spells.

Spellcasters in Epics? I'll take the half damage on spells again and stay standing after cometfall

If you are talking about tanking Horath, you need to worry about HP before 15% less melee damage.

Is a Wizard feat starved? IMO yes, since they have so many feats that make a big difference. Spell foci, Spell Pen, Metas, HP etc.

My Feats on a second life WF Archmage:

Quicken
Max
Emp
Heighten
MT
SF: Necro
GSF: Necro
SF: Conj
Spell Pen x2
Insightful Reflexes
Wiz past life

self buff to 505 hp without toughness.

Also, Eladars and Niacs DoT's hold agro just fine on Sulu in ToD.

If you want a self sustaining Horath/Sulu/Epic boss tank I would make a Cha focused Tukaw with the Shield Mastery feat. Then in Epic's you are more useful than most AC builds built for ToD.

Just how I see it.

On your second+ life the Spell pen feats are overkill personally I'd didn't take em on my first life and I got through Spell Resistance just fine. Although I do agree that with IR vs. Shield Mastery Insightful reflexes win but I can easily fit in all my required wiz feats as well as S-Prof & S-Mastery on my Palemaster. Oh and S-Mastery is infinitely more useful to a Palemaster...I don't think I'd take it on a Archmage.

Why would you even think of taking Shield Mastery on a Sorc for someone who thinks a Wizard is feat starved why suggest taking it on a Sorc that only gets the standard 7 feats?

Anyways this is my TR build for my wizard...a non-human would have to be pure to fit this.

Human Wiz18/Rog2 "Palemaster"

Shield Prof:General
Shield Mastery
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness (Swap to PL:Wizard when PM3/Lich is obtained)
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower