Shield Mastery

**Blank_Zero** · 07-25-2011, 05:38 PM

I know it takes some gear and sacrifices, but how viable would the Shield Mastery line be on a WF Archmage? I like the idea of turtling up and tanking on a Wizzy, or just mitigating incoming damage while scroll farming.

How would/should I fit it in? Or is it a total waste of feats?

**Arkat** · 07-25-2011, 05:41 PM

I would think the Arcane Spell Failure chance alone would deter Wizzies from taking the Shield proficiencies needed for your idea.

**The_Brave2** · 07-25-2011, 05:47 PM

ASF isnt an issue using some special shields, specifically any epic shield with the correct augument slot.

however shield mastery is pointless, when you turtle up with an epic shield you get 12DR (epic kundark warding shield) + 10DR from stone skin (they stack) = 22DR total, which is plenty for normal use, pop a displacement and you will be fine. its not worth the feat on a very feat starved class.

**jcTharin** · 07-25-2011, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

its not worth the feat on a very feat starved class.

Well wizards aren't exactly feat starved. I could see one feat being worth it if you tank a lot. Maybe.

**The_Brave2** · 07-25-2011, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by jcTharin

Well wizards aren't exactly feat starved. I could see one feat being worth it if you tank a lot. Maybe.

Wizards are very feat starved

Toughness/SF/GSF/Wiz PL/secondary SF/Max/Emp/Heighten/Extend - Yes, its still REQUIRED./Quicken

if you don't have the Wiz PL you have a free feat, but should be used on Spell pen.

Granted, it does sound fun, but it wouldnt be 20% since the shield wouldnt be a tower shield without some serious spell failure since i cant think of a tower shield besides skyvault without a ASF chance. Still, 15% does sound nice, but reducing your DC's for something you can already do is kinda pointless imo. my WF Wiz tanks Sulu in ToD easily without the shield mastery just fine.

Edit: also, the 15% would probably be taken off the number after the DR is applied, assuming you get hit for about 70 damage, thats -22 from DR so 48, then 15% off of 48 = ~7 Damage, so you would be taking 41 instead of 48, while blocking. not worth it imo.

**Blank_Zero** · 07-25-2011, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

Wizards are very feat starved

Toughness/SF/GSF/Wiz PL/secondary SF/Max/Emp/Heighten/Extend - Yes, its still REQUIRED./Quicken

if you don't have the Wiz PL you have a free feat, but should be used on Spell pen.

Granted, it does sound fun, but it wouldnt be 20% since the shield wouldnt be a tower shield without some serious spell failure since i cant think of a tower shield besides skyvault without a ASF chance. Still, 15% does sound nice, but reducing your DC's for something you can already do is kinda pointless imo. my WF Wiz tanks Sulu in ToD easily without the shield mastery just fine.

Edit: also, the 15% would probably be taken off the number after the DR is applied, assuming you get hit for about 70 damage, thats -22 from DR so 48, then 15% off of 48 = ~7 Damage, so you would be taking 41 instead of 48, while blocking. not worth it imo.

I don't have Extend anymore. 2 minutes of Haste is good. If not, bring a 20 Bard (if they still exist).

I can't think of something that does 70 dmg per hit on a regular basis apart from maybe Horoth/Epic ITD Hezrou/eDQ. Even most trash in Epic doesn't hit above 50/hit unless it's red named.

I'll keep looking into the feat selection. I pulled a Plain heart and wanna use it on my wizzy anyhow to ungimp him a bit, so I figured I'd look into maybe some experimental stuff.

And after seeing Teth tank Epic DQ1/2 with his FvS, I was intrigued.

**Rodasch** · 07-25-2011, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

Edit: also, the 15% would probably be taken off the number after the DR is applied, assuming you get hit for about 70 damage, thats -22 from DR so 48, then 15% off of 48 = ~7 Damage, so you would be taking 41 instead of 48, while blocking. not worth it imo. [/color]

that's the equivalent of DR 7/- in that situation alone, and scales to more when getting hit harder...7 points is 7 points, and over 20-30 hits it adds up to quite a lot (140-210) of hit points prevented. It means you can stand there longer between casting quickened reconstruct, or use that extra time to cast more damage spells and kill stuff faster...it means less sp being spent on self healing so more can be spent on damage.

Not worth it?

Guess that's subjective.

I'll just say that one of my friends in game runs a WF wizard with shield mastery and when he turtles up, epic Laillat can't even do more 0-1pt a hit on him, he actually has to take off some gear to do elite just so his guards will fire. Same with several other elite raids.

**Rodasch** · 07-25-2011, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

Wizards are very feat starved

Toughness/SF/GSF/Wiz PL/secondary SF/Max/Emp/Heighten/Extend - Yes, its still REQUIRED./Quicken

if you don't have the Wiz PL you have a free feat, but should be used on Spell pen.

Wow, really? Playing a sorc would probably explode your head then. We only get 7 feats total (8 if human). That's feat starved. You get, what, 5 bonus metas? I hardly call 13-14 feats "starved"

**Blank_Zero** · 07-25-2011, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

ASF isnt an issue using some special shields, specifically any epic shield with the correct augument slot.

however shield mastery is pointless, when you turtle up with an epic shield you get 12DR (epic kundark warding shield) + 10DR from stone skin (they stack) = 22DR total, which is plenty for normal use, pop a displacement and you will be fine. its not worth the feat on a very feat starved class.

22 DR + Displace + 20% Damage Absorbtion though....It's tasty...

**Larv** · 07-25-2011, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Blank_Zero

22 DR + Displace + 20% Damage Absorbtion though....It's tasty...

Your blocking DR will actualy be more than that as shield blocking DR is (BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements according to the wiki so with a divine power clicky thats 12 (shield) + 2 + 10 (BAB) + 10 (stoneskin) for 34 DR + 20% damage absorbtion + displace

**Blank_Zero** · 07-25-2011, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by okmht2

Your blocking DR will actualy be more than that as shield blocking DR is (BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements according to the wiki so with a divine power clicky thats 12 (shield) + 2 + 10 (BAB) + 10 (stoneskin) for 34 DR + 20% damage absorbtion + displace

20% absorb is first apparently.

So, if we look at 100 dmg (Horoth), using Epic Kundy Shield (12 DR), with a 20 pure wizzy (10 BAB)

100 - 20% = 80 to start

34 DR from that is 46 dmg

so 46 damage from 100.

Then Displace for 50% miss, so average of 23/hit from Horoth. Any wizzy worth his salt is going to have ~500-600 if they're tanking (and hope and pray not to get Disintegrated :P

550/23 = 23.9....

so on a Wizzy with enough Repair Amp to full heal with a single Recon, I can take 20+ hits from Horoth before needing to heal. Add Quicken and Emp/Max'd DoTs and you have a nasty combination.

**The_Brave2** · 07-25-2011, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Blank_Zero

20% absorb is first apparently.

So, if we look at 100 dmg (Horoth), using Epic Kundy Shield (12 DR), with a 20 pure wizzy (10 BAB)

100 - 20% = 80 to start

34 DR from that is 46 dmg

so 46 damage from 100.

Then Displace for 50% miss, so average of 23/hit from Horoth. Any wizzy worth his salt is going to have ~500-600 if they're tanking (and hope and pray not to get Disintegrated :P

550/23 = 23.9....

so on a Wizzy with enough Repair Amp to full heal with a single Recon, I can take 20+ hits from Horoth before needing to heal. Add Quicken and Emp/Max'd DoTs and you have a nasty combination.

as i said before, kundark warding shield is 15% since its a large shield, not a tower shield. so it would be 5 more damage, not a big difference, but horoth also has true seeing (doesnt he?), so you are looking at 51/hit, also, you cant assume you can take 23 hits, even though the new calc says its about 10 hits, because of the badges, which in reality are most of the damage he deals out. also you cant just heal yourself when you hit 1hp, you have to keep yourself at full hp all the time, so when you take a hit for 50 and a badge tick you have to heal yourself. so that extra 15 damage isnt going to make a big difference if you are only healing about 150 damage and your recon's are hitting for 300's. just my 2 cents.

also, the shield mastery becomes more useless the less damage you are getting hit for, in reality you wont be tanking horoth unless you can get upwards of 680ish hp, which on a wiz is very difficult, even with a bloodrage docent. so you are looking at tanking sully instead, which dishes out what? 50-70 damage? so that 15% is only giving you a 7-10 reduction for that damage, which would defiantly more usefull on sulu but you have to take in-to account that you wont be blocking every time he hits you, you have to cast your DoT's and possibly nuke with polar ray/lightning bolt, so lets say 1/5 hits is not blocking, so:

lets look at the top end of the damage:

10 damage - 20% = 8 damage

so now you are looking at about an additonal 6-8 damage reduction from a use of a feat, only 3-4 damage if you are displaced on a mob hitting the same without TS. doesnt seem worth it to tick off people in ToD and have to remember to cast twice as often.

To Sum it up:

Baisicly the shield mastery would only be worth it for a mob hitting 80+ damage per swing, even then it's debatable, if you are planning on soloing epic DQ2 and need higher DR, the shield mastery would for sure be worth it, but for common play I personally don't find it justifiable in the long run.

**noinfo** · 07-26-2011, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Blank_Zero

20% absorb is first apparently.

So, if we look at 100 dmg (Horoth), using Epic Kundy Shield (12 DR), with a 20 pure wizzy (10 BAB)

100 - 20% = 80 to start

34 DR from that is 46 dmg

so 46 damage from 100.

Then Displace for 50% miss, so average of 23/hit from Horoth. Any wizzy worth his salt is going to have ~500-600 if they're tanking (and hope and pray not to get Disintegrated :P

550/23 = 23.9....

so on a Wizzy with enough Repair Amp to full heal with a single Recon, I can take 20+ hits from Horoth before needing to heal. Add Quicken and Emp/Max'd DoTs and you have a nasty combination.

Horoth is gunna see right through that displacement

Would be curious to see how his DOT's are affected by shields, guess they should be.
I think you would be chewing through that blue bar pretty quick still to be honest.
But only one way to tell.

**Failedlegend** · 07-26-2011, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by The_Brave2

Shield mastery is pointless, when you turtle up with an epic shield you get 12DR (epic kundark warding shield) + 10DR from stone skin (they stack) = 22DR total, which is plenty for normal use, pop a displacement and you will be fine. its not worth the feat on a very feat starved class.

First Wizard is FAR from a feat starved classed here's what I'm doing with my TR

Human Wiz18/Rog2 "Palemaster"

Shield Prof:General
Shield Mastery
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower

Con 18
Int 18
Str or Cha 10 (Carry Capacity vs. +1 UMD/Intim)

Second Shield Mastery is FAR from useless its a PASSIVE 15% DR (with large shield) which STACKS with the "Turtling" DR and with the pseudo DR of the Death Aura from Palemaster and you got one hard to kill caster..with little sacrifice to spell casting ability (all standard wizard feats taken)

Thats not even including insightful reflexes and evasion if you decide to splash rogue.

**budalic** · 07-26-2011, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Failedlegend

Second Shield Mastery is FAR from useless its a PASSIVE 15% DR (with large shield) which STACKS with the "Turtling" DR and with the pseudo DR of the Death Aura from Palemaster and you got one hard to kill caster..with little sacrifice to spell casting ability (all standard wizard feats taken)

It should also be noted that nature of Pale Master healing makes Shield Mastery even more attractive, because our only burst heal, Negative Energy Burst is pretty crappy. So, it makes sense to load on damage mitigation and try to get the most out of Death Aura.

**Failedlegend** · 07-26-2011, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by budalic

It should also be noted that nature of Pale Master healing makes Shield Mastery even more attractive, because our only burst heal, Negative Energy Burst is pretty crappy. So, it makes sense to load on damage mitigation and try to get the most out of Death Aura.

Somewhat unrelated but a note about palemasters...we're immune to the bad side effects of the Demon Consort Bracers making them an incredibly effective item.

My plan for my PM is to cram as many guards on him as possible (after the prerequisite caster stuff of course ie. Potency, Torc, Con-OP etc.) that coupled with DOTs (speccing Cold/Acid for Eladar's & Melf's) and intimidate (plus the boost from shields) along with the severe reduction of any incoming damage + the death aura will make an extremely effective IntimiHate tank and outside of the tank role a highly effective highly survivable caster especially if you splash rogue for evasion, UMD (high UMD is a must for a palemaster so they can scroll heal harm) and of course Intimidate..on a Human you can even fit in trap skills.

Note: It much easier to fit in trap skills with a +1 Int tome at lvl 3 (or lvl 4 for vet status toons) and a +2 int tome at lvl 7...both of which are easily to obtained especially for a TR...its not required you'll just be behind other trappers by a point or two on some levels if you don't do this.

The version below is with the +1/2 Int Tomes

Note: The 2nd rogue level can be taken as soon as lvl 8 It's just a personal pref to have it at 1 & 11

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 


Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 4 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+7)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 16 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Code:

Skills (At 20 Trained + Stat Mod....no items)            

Concentration           29
Disable Device          31
Intimidate              25
Open Lock               15
Search                  31
Use Magic Device        25

**Barashkukor** · 07-26-2011, 08:06 AM

Here are my (messy) notes so far on my planned TR, from Drow to 34 point Elf with focus on damage mitigation/reduction.

------

feats for TR Elf: (in no particular order)
- empower, extend, maximize, quicken, heighten
- toughness, sfnecro, gsfnecro, plwiz, shield prof,
shield mastery, ins.reflex, mental toughness (12 to 18, then swap out)

AP's & Costs:
Full Force: 19
Full Arcane Fluidity: 6
Double Imp Maximise: 6
Double Imp Empower: 6
Full Racial Toughness: 3
Full Wiz Int: 12
Full Pale Master: 8
Master of Magic: 2
Lich Shroud: 2
Triple Energy Scholar: 6
Triple Elven Arcanum: 6
Single points in Fire/Acid/Elec/Cold Manip leaves 0.

(triple arcanum somewhat replaces both spell pen feats (together with pl:wiz) to afford shield mastery, sacs some health, should be negligible as Drow already very survivable at only 400hp buffed, no gs etc)

Conflicted about Full Force - read somewhere critlines don't work on untyped? (bug or wai - find source and note it here fofure) if so, which replacements? single point critline everything? improve max/emp sp-reduc?

want imp-shield mastery, means dropping a meta and moving sfnecro to bonus feats - if so, which meta to drop?
must-have: maxi, emp, quicken
leaves: heighten, extend
* heighten benefits - mostly fod as toon not about CC at all, -3 DC on fod quite severe, offset with semi-liberal use
of debuffs? seems very inefficient but perhaps acceptable?
* extend benefits - mainly haste, rage, auras. also inefficient to rebuff twice as often

{needs more research/consideration}

------

Any input greatly appreciated

**Entelech** · 07-26-2011, 08:55 PM

Look...we're getting bogged down in personal arguments and sniping, when really what is happening is that we're talking at cross purposes.

One group is all "I want to try this flavor build to combine Wiztanking with reasonable performance as a general-purpose Wizard."

The other group is all "but...but...you aren't a hyper-specialized endgame CC specialist...what good are you?"

Each side has a point. And each side is totally failing to listen to the other. Is it any wonder we're devolving into sarcasm by page 4 of the thread?

**budalic** · 07-27-2011, 01:24 AM

SF: Enchant and GSF: Enchant are quite useless atm. What's better - mob fails save and becomes held for 3 secs before next save, or mob fails save and dies? Only place where CC is useful is eChrono, but I had quite good experience there with web and/or cycling of will save debuffs and Deep Slumber. In other situations... CC is a waste of party slot, IMO.

To whomever said 15% damage mitigation is useless... what is useful then? SF feats are acually quite useless - you get 5% more chance of affecting enemy. Spellpen? Most epic enemies don't have any SR, and epic drow have SR so high you'd have trouble affecting them with a 3xwiz tr, 3xfvs tr maxed spellpen elf. Dammit, play the game a bit, and you'll realize what's really useful.

To all WF ppl in the thread, aim higher than Horoth... my WF sorc buddy can solo Lailat in eDQ1. Of course, he has Shield Mastery....

EDIT: It isn't a question of wiztanks vs. generally useful builds.... Shield mastery builds are generally useful now, and other builds are flavor, IMO.

**danotmano1998** · 07-27-2011, 04:29 PM

Just to be clear, and since this is a relatively newer addition to the game..

Shield Mastery gives you a 15% damage reduction if you're holding a (large) shield. Regardless of whether or not you're blocking. If you are blocking, then you get to add all the other numbers in there after the 15% is removed right off the top.

Taking 2 feats from a sorc would be a huge loss. (Assuming your going pure).
Taking 2 feats from a wiz would be a loss, but liveable, IMO.
Taking 2 feats from a cleric? Hmm.. Tough choice.

I think the place where this would be very effective is in high pressure situations where you accidentally grab aggro you didn't want.

Oops! Harry is coming right at me!!! ARGHHH !!!
1. Put up the shield and sit tight until the aggro is removed from you via the rest of the party.
2. Toss the shield aside and start casting again!

Is the feat really worth it? Depends on your playstyle, your build, and your particular flavor.
15% isn't a lot. For some builds, it could be the difference between life or death. For others, not so much.

Thread: Shield Mastery

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Display

Hybrid View

Shield Mastery

Blocking DR

Posting Permissions