crafted weapons and min level, problem and a possible solution

[Don1966]

note: this is a work in progress, also a wall of text.
as it is now the crafted weapons minimum level is higher than random loot. it has been stated by the Devs that this isn't what they wanted. after a bit of research, that isn't finished yet, i'm seeing where the problems are. first part of the problem is in the enhancement bonus shards. i've dug around and found that plain weapons with enhancement bonuses have the following minimum levels:
+1 is a 0 minimum level
+2 is a 2 minimum level
+3 is a 4 minimum level
+4 is a 6 minimum level
+5 is a 8 minimum level

so we can conclude that the enhancement bonus is supposed to raise the min level of the weapon by those numbers.
as it is now a crafted weapon with no effects end up raising the min level of a weapon by the following:
+1 is a 1 minimum level, shard is +1, formula is 2 times the + on the shard minus 1
+2 is a 3 minimum level, shard is +2
+3 is a 5 minimum level, shard is +3
+4 is a 7 minimum level, shard is +4
+5 is a 9 minimum level, shard is +5

in each of these cases the minimum level is 1 higher than random weapons. so either the + number of the enhancement shards needs to be lowered by 1 on each or the formula needs to be changed to 2 times the + on the shard minus 2 to match random loot. if the crafted weapons are supposed to be 1 level below random weapons then the + number needs to drop by 2 or the formula needs to be 2 times the + minus 3. lower the + of the shards by one has been suggested in other threads by a few people. i think the + of the shards needs to be dropped by 1 due to the second part of the problem.

i did look around at a lot of weapons on AH this past week, one good thing about crafting being down, there are a lot of weapons on AH now. i have figured out how much a lot, but not all, of the effects raise the minimum level of weapons. i concentrated my research on weapons that cause melee damage and didn't do any for weapons that boost spells. for the most part effect shards with the current formula will be 1 level below random weapons with the following exceptions.
the bane effects, lesser bane, bane and greater bane add 2, 4 and 6 to the min level of a weapon. right now the shard plus on each tier is 1, 2 and 4. the first 2, lesser bane and bane will be 1 level below random while greater bane will be 1 level above random. greater bane needs to be 3.5 to match random weapons. to be 1 lower greater bane needs to be 3.
bone breaking adds 4 to a weapons min level, right now shards have no + so a crafted bone breaker will be 4 below random, this shard should have a +2 to end up 1 level below random.
metalline adds 4 to a weapons min level, right now the shards are +4 which would make these 3 over random. this shard should be +2 to be 1 level below, 2.5 to be the same as random.
impact and keen, both of these effects add 2 to a weapons min level. right now impact shards have no +, keen has a +1, impact needs to be a +1 as well for both of these to be 1 level below random, to be the same they both need to be 2.5.

these are the ones i've found so far. there are still a few more to research plus there are the spell effects for weapons to research. though i did notice that some spell weapon effects can be either a prefix or a suffix, which is a discussion for another time.
for future reference i did find that the following raise the min level of random weapons by 10, disruption, smiting, paralyzing, banishing, and vorpal. so, each of those shards, if and when they are introduced to crafting will need to be +5 to be 1 below, 5.5 to be the same as random.

[Don1966]

for reference here is the spreadsheet i created to figure out what how much how much each effect added to the minimum level.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...=0&output=html
do note that there are a lot of effects left to add to it. and there may be a few spelling errors, i'll fix those soon.

[Don1966]

reserved for future

[Gkar]

The formula is double the total shard value - 1.

It's been known from the beginning this was too high.

Tolero originally said this was a bug.

Eladrin (or was it Mad?) recently said that they were happy with the levels they way they were.

[Don1966]

The formula is double the total shard value - 1.

It's been known from the beginning this was too high.

Tolero originally said this was a bug.

Eladrin (or was it Mad?) recently said that they were happy with the levels they way they were.

actually the formula is correct to make weapons be 1 level below random loot for most things. the problem people are seeing is because a few of the shards have the wrong + applied to them.
for instance, a random +1 flaming longsword will be min level 2, a crafted +1 flaming longsword will be min level 3. the discrepancy in this case is caused by the +1 enchantment shards which has a +1, it should be +0. this would make the crafted version be min level 1, not game breaking in any way as you can easily get a named weapon with that eddect at level one from korthos.
another example, a random +1 ghost touch short sword of greater chaotic outsider bane is a min level 8 weapon, a crafted +1 ghost touch short sword of greater chaotic outsider bane ends up as a min level 11, +1 from enchantment, +1 from ghost touch, +4 from gcob times 2 minus 1 equals 11. changing +1 enchantment to 0 and changing gcob to +3 makes the min level 7, 1 below random.
i am aware no one would want to craft a +1 ghost touch short sword of greater chaotic outsider bane, i used that example because i did come across one in the game so can verify that min level.
i think part of why one of the devs said they may be fine with the min level as it is now is that everyone gushes about how great a +4 holy burst silver of greater lawful outsider bane is. a random weapon with those effects should be min level 20, 6 from +4, 8 from holy burst, 6 from glob. a crafted version is min level 23, 4 from +4, 4 from hb, 4 from glob times 2 minus 1 equals 23.
let's look at +3 holy burst silver of greater lawful outsider bane. a random version of this should be min level 18. 4 from +3, 8 from hb, 6 from glob. a crafted version ends up at min level 21, 3 from +3, 4 from hb, 4 from glob times 2 minus 1 equals 21.

in short the formula that has been in use is fine to make crafted weapons be 1 level below random provided certain shards have their + number modified.

[Gkar]

actually the formula is correct to make weapons be 1 level below random loot for most things. the problem people are seeing is because a few of the shards have the wrong + applied to them.

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. From the wiki:http://ddowiki.com/page/Minimum_level

Randomly generated item
The minimum level of a randomly generated item is calculated by adding the minimum level on its enchantments. Then, it is calculated by using one of the two following formula:

◦For weapons, armors and shields: (Base price modifier x 2) - 2
◦Clothing Ⓢ and jewelry Ⓢ: (Base price modifier x 2) + 1 where anything under minimum level 5 has no minimum level.

Weapons, armor, and shields are all 1 level HIGHER than they should be if they were random. Clothing and Jewlery is lower than it should be, but that's not what the OP as asking about.

(And yes, there is also a labelling bug for a couple shards)

[psteen1]

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. From the wiki:http://ddowiki.com/page/Minimum_level

He DOES know what he is talking about. His point is that the enchantment values need to be fixed to lower the minimum levels. He is pointing out the proper way to do so.

[Don1966]

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. From the wiki:http://ddowiki.com/page/Minimum_level




Weapons, armor, and shields are all 1 level HIGHER than they should be if they were random. Clothing and Jewlery is lower than it should be, but that's not what the OP as asking about.

(And yes, there is also a labelling bug for a couple shards)

sorry, that formula is sometimes correct but often it isn't.

[Don1966]

He DOES know what he is talking about. His point is that the enchantment values need to be fixed to lower the minimum levels. He is pointing out the proper way to do so.

thank you, most of my point, and this has been pointed out by others prior to my post, is that enchantment levels are off. the rest of my point is that a few of the effect shards are off too. with the way crafting is calculating min levels i feel adjusting this part would be the easier solution. as of now i have found 9 shards that need to have their number modified to make a crafted weapon be 1 level below random. the 5 enchantment shards and 4 others already listed in the OP.

[Chai]

thank you, most of my point, and this has been pointed out by others prior to my post, is that enchantment levels are off. the rest of my point is that a few of the effect shards are off too. with the way crafting is calculating min levels i feel adjusting this part would be the easier solution. as of now i have found 9 shards that need to have their number modified to make a crafted weapon be 1 level below random. the 5 enchantment shards and 4 others already listed in the OP.

Yeap exactly. I have seen this quite a bit as well. People have made weapons with the same + value that are different min level.

We know what the presumed formula is as it has been the same for a while now. What the OP is explaining is that those arent followed to a T at all times and they dont seem to always stay on the same logical discourse when they are off, due to certain shards being different from the presumed formula that has been in place and for most items has worked.

Handwraps and potency items are the two random generated items I can think of off the top of my head which deviate from the presumed formula. Im sure there are more. I have seen ML 14 and ML 16 +3 superior potency VI scepters, just as Ive seen ML 2 and ML 4 flaming handwraps.

[Aelonwy]

/signed. Great Ideas. Why haven't the devs thought of these?



I wish a Dev would read this thread and comment.... especially Mad or Tolero or Eladrin. If they're happy with the min levels of crafted armor/shields/weapons then I am very unhappy. I've only crafted one weapon, and it was 3 levels higher than it ought to have been making it useless in the adv pack for which it was intended to be used. *sigh* I can really only see crafting being truly useful for accessories, low level robes and end game weapons which leaves a whole heck of alot in the mud.

Currently, if say you craft a Greater Reptilian Bane Weapon your choices are leave off the +1 and it will be minimum Lvl 7making it 1lvl higher than random loot with minus 1 to hit and damage, AND lower hardness and durability. OR craft it like the random generated weapon +1 Greater Reptilian Bane but now its minimum level 9.... NINE, 3 levels higher than random generated.... THREE!!! This is not a game-breaking weapon devs.... there is no acceptable reason for it to have such a high minimum level. Plus you can't add risia effects to it at all, nor alchemical rituals without affecting the minimum levels.

If the idea was to not devalue random loot, well that is accomplished in and of itself by the fact that random loot CAN have risia effects added, CAN have alchemical rituals added without affecting min lvls, CAN have guild slots filled without affecting min lvls, and finally CAN be RR which makes the minimum level 2 lower. Thus random loot can far surpass Cannith Crafted in quite a few ways.