Shroud ingredients for Cannith Crafting Really?

[LocksRUs]

since they are now using shroud crafting Ingredients for Cannith crafting I hope they have incresed the drip rates of these ingredients.

Need a large devil scale for Greater Evil Outsider Bane

[dkyle]

Need a large devil scale for Greater Evil Outsider Bane

Sounds reasonable.


1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?

[pasterqb]

Sounds reasonable.


1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?

Agreed 100%.

[JOTMON]

The Scale price is not outlandish, I would rather have seen alternatives available. Forcing everyone to farm for 1 specific item to craft an effect is annoying.


I hate to see the generic crafting system still forces players to grind for specific items.


The crafting across the board should offer alternative ingredients to craft similar effects. Let me use 3 Large Ebberon Shards, or 100 Planar shards, or a Flawless Siberys shard. Some ingredients call for Slaying arrows.. Do Slaying bolts work.. probably not.. why not...

[Hordo]

Sounds reasonable.


1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?

/Agreed

and +1

[AZgreentea]

On the plus side, maybe I will be able to get in more shroud PUGS now.

[Cyr]

/shrug about shroud ingredients in general being required

LDS I still think is a bad idea though as it takes the already limited resource used as an alternative currency and puts greater demand on it.

Last thing I think the game needs is MORE reasons to run the shroud with level 20 toons.

[Beld]

on The Plus Side, Maybe I Will Be Able To Get In More Shroud Pugs Now. :d

[CountHenri]

Since a +4 Holyburst of GLOB will remove the need for me to make MinIIs I give this ELEVEN Thumbs Up...

Making Holyburst shards on the other hand...

Glad I made a few pre10.1...

[EvilI]

Well, let's not exaggerate. Obtaining 2 large devil scales takes a while, but is not impossible and quite possibly easier than it was for you to level your craftingskill to where you could make these items. Anything from 6 to 12 shroud-completions seems realistic, but because of the way statistics work there is a risk of long dry-spellls...

Now it certainly appears dubious from a design-perspective to cannibalize on the one greensteel-ingredient that was already so gravely under-supplied that it makes all the other large mats virtually worthless in comparison. The real question I want answered though, is: Will you loose your LDS upon a failed crafting attempt? Let's just say I'm not going to be the one to work out if that is the case...

[dkyle]

The Scale price is not outlandish, I would rather have seen alternatives available. Forcing everyone to farm for 1 specific item to craft an effect is annoying.

It's unbound. There are tons and tons of things you could trade to get a LDS. You're not forced to farm Shroud, DA or Amrath.

Since a +4 Holyburst of GLOB will remove the need for me to make MinIIs I give this ELEVEN Thumbs Up...

This is important to remember. Cannith Crafting should significantly reduce the number of MinIIs that get made, which reduces the demand for LDSes in GS crafting. The new Scale requirement is partially replacing a now slackened demand, not raising the pre-Cannith demand even higher.

[GermanicusMaximus]

For the most part, I don't see any problems with the ingredient requirements for the creation of items you actually plan on using. The problem in crafting design is that leveling your crafting skill requires the creation of an endless stream of junk shards, many of which now require greensteel ingredients, purified Eberron dragonshards, and other relatively rare items.

This is a broken system for the vast majority of players who don't live in their mother's basement.

The 5 year anniversary party was a major success in drawing people back to the game. Cannith Crafting needed to be the follow up that kept that momentum alive. Instead, it has consistently failed to provide a challlenging yet reasonable activity in what is meant to be a GAME, not a JOB.

One needs to look no further than the plummeting value of essences to see that more and more people are opting out of crafting. And with nothing new to amuse them, more and more people are opting to find something other than DDO to fill their recreational time.

At this time last year, the Cannith server was booming with activity. Yesterday, it was so deserted I had to resort to doing my yard work. My neighbors thank the DDO developers -- I do not.

If this is really the developers attempt at finally getting the crafting system right, they need to rethink what makes people want to play this game, and do so quickly.

[krogyy]

this shard cost may be fine. what is not fine at all is the cost for leveling. it was bad before it is totally absurd after 10.2.

how many +1 tomes alone are needed for leveling to 100? i bet that the devs didn't even calculated an estimate. it seems like they tried to balance the cost of the few uber crafted items while forgetting the leveling process completely.

[dkyle]

For the most part, I don't see any problems with the ingredient requirements for the creation of items you actually plan on using. The problem in crafting design is that leveling your crafting skill requires the creation of an endless stream of junk shards, many of which now require greensteel ingredients, purified Eberron dragonshards, and other relatively rare items.

Level with unbound shards and the cheaper bound shards; there are many that are unchanged, and do not require anything rare.

I would agree that, in general, I'm not thrilled with how time consuming and grindy leveling is. To me, the mistake was emphasizing it so much to begin with. I'd rather level be something you get naturally in the course of making what you want, that gives you discounts on further crafting, but isn't required. Let the cost of the items themselves be the limiting factor, not leveling grind.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Turbine should give us a goody bag right off the boat with all the mats for the best of everything you'll need at 20 for <Insert Class(es)> here.

Wet paper sacks for Raid Boss Armor

Insta-Kill (1 TP available from in-game store) Easy Button

and a link to social networking sites that does 33 point compatability to find players you can group with to get you there....


Work with what you have, Work for what you want, and Want for nothing.

[shortdevils]

Level with unbound shards and the cheaper bound shards; there are many that are unchanged, and do not require anything rare.

I would agree that, in general, I'm not thrilled with how time consuming and grindy leveling is. To me, the mistake was emphasizing it so much to begin with. I'd rather level be something you get naturally in the course of making what you want, that gives you discounts on further crafting, but isn't required. Let the cost of the items themselves be the limiting factor, not leveling grind.

^^This

The leveling is the most irritating part. Spenind hours or days and tons to plat to level an not even have anythin partailly useful to craft is just ridiculous.
If the devs wanted crafting to be accesible to everyone, they havent succeded.

The way i see it , the way i see it , the devs should either remove levels entirely and up individual ingredient cost of effects or condense the levels to 50 or more while adjusting the leveling curve so that one can actually stuff as they level.

[Doganpc]

It's unbound. There are tons and tons of things you could trade to get a LDS. You're not forced to farm Shroud, DA or Amrath.

Like an Arm or a Leg.

Sadly, It will be easier for me to get 5 LDS than level high enough to craft the equivalent with only 1.

Dogan
What we really need is endgame that doesn't rely upon evil outsiders

[GermanicusMaximus]

Level with unbound shards and the cheaper bound shards; there are many that are unchanged, and do not require anything rare.

When crafting first appeared, I thought it had a great deal of potential. Being a software engineer, the first thing I did was build a model of the leveling system, and then wrote a program that calculated the optimal path to use to level. One of the side effects of that is that I know fairly precisely what the costs are, both starting at level 1 and from the current crafting levels I have (75/62/46). The current system doesn't have a leveling path that doesn't make me laugh (or scream, depending upon the mood that I'm in.)

Aside from the fact that I doubt the DDO developers had a corresponding model when they initially designed the system (and very well still may not), I think there were 3 fundamental errors made in the design of the crafting system

1) As you note, putting the cost in the leveling grind instead of the actual creation of an item

2) Making crafting f2p. A major portion of DDO revenue comes from the sale of adventure packs, and a significant portion of adventure pack sales are driven primarily by the upgraded loot they contain. From a business standpoint, a f2p crafting system that undercuts that revenue stream cannot actually ever deliver anything worthwhile in significant numbers. At best, worthwhile loot will have to be a promise most people endlessly grind towards but never achieve. Worthwhile loot just became more difficult to achieve with this update. It won't be the last time that happens.

3) Allowing the crafting of unbound shards opens up the possibility of one crafter flooding the market with shards, unbalancing content, and making far too much of the game a trivial exercise.

Its certainly possible, although difficult, for the developers to directly address the issues and deliver a workable p2p, Bound to Account shard system without the mindless leveling system the current f2p system has. Until they do, or find a means to fix their current f2p system, I am writing off my 75/62/46 crafter as a waste of time.

[krogyy]

When crafting first appeared, I thought it had a great deal of potential. Being a software engineer, the first thing I did was build a model of the leveling system, and then wrote a program that calculated the optimal path to use to level. One of the side effects of that is that I know fairly precisely what the costs are, both starting at level 1 and from the current crafting levels I have (75/62/46). The current system doesn't have a leveling path that doesn't make me laugh (or scream, depending upon the mood that I'm in.)

Aside from the fact that I doubt the DDO developers had a corresponding model when they initially designed the system (and very well still may not), I think there were 3 fundamental errors made in the design of the crafting system

1) As you note, putting the cost in the leveling grind instead of the actual creation of an item

2) Making crafting f2p. A major portion of DDO revenue comes from the sale of adventure packs, and a significant portion of adventure pack sales are driven primarily by the upgraded loot they contain. From a business standpoint, a f2p crafting system that undercuts that revenue stream cannot actually ever deliver anything worthwhile in significant numbers. At best, worthwhile loot will have to be a promise most people endlessly grind towards but never achieve. Worthwhile loot just became more difficult to achieve with this update. It won't be the last time that happens.

3) Allowing the crafting of unbound shards opens up the possibility of one crafter flooding the market with shards, unbalancing content, and making far too much of the game a trivial exercise.

Its certainly possible, although difficult, for the developers to directly address the issues and deliver a workable p2p, Bound to Account shard system without the mindless leveling system the current f2p system has. Until they do, or find a means to fix their current f2p system, I am writing off my 75/62/46 crafter as a waste of time.

can you share some of your figures?

i suspect most people greately understimate the leveling costs...

[LucidLTS]

<snip>
This is a broken system for the vast majority of players who don't live in their mother's basement.

The 5 year anniversary party was a major success in drawing people back to the game. Cannith Crafting needed to be the follow up that kept that momentum alive. Instead, it has consistently failed to provide a challlenging yet reasonable activity in what is meant to be a GAME, not a JOB.

One needs to look no further than the plummeting value of essences to see that more and more people are opting out of crafting.

<snip>

If this is really the developers attempt at finally getting the crafting system right, they need to rethink what makes people want to play this game, and do so quickly.

Agreed (with the sentiments of the parts I quoted).

Any grindy requirement deters casual players more than intense players.

Any rare drop requirement deters casual players more than intense players.

Any raid only ingredient requirement deters casual players more than intense players.

Furthermore, any raid (or mechanically solo precluded quest) only ingredient re-introduces the chicken and egg problem of can't group without gear and can't gear without group.

And even if horrible ingredient requirements wouldn't block crafting of the stuff mid-level casual crafters want to make, it's still a PR nightmare - this game encourages people to plan ahead (which I like, btw) and if you look ahead and see the prize is blocked by barrier you're never going to breach, it kills the enthusiasm - why even try?



What Canith Crafting needs is a choke point that doesn't choke casual players ten times as hard as it chokes those who can invest part time job levels of time.

How about XP cost? Make it big, make it hurt, and nobody with flood the market with these items. People with alternatives will use an alternative.

How about raid timer cool-down? If crafting a +5 holy burst glob smacker of evisceration ML20 disables all crafting for 20 days, they won't flood the market.

How about people can only have a limited number of items over a certain level in existence and have to recycle old ones to create new ones (like in Relics of a Sovereign Past)? You could even regen the pool once a year to reward long term loyalty.


I don't mean to imply all choke points should be removed, a flood of powerful weapons erects an even greater barrier to new players. But it's painful to hear devs state that this is meant to be accessible to casual players and an alternative to raiding (Great and Noble goals!) and then see the limiting factors they choose hurt the people they are intending to help more than the people who have alternatives.

It's like they set up a kiddie pool with a 3 foot tall fence around it - it really slows down the kiddies but the giants can step right over it.

And +1 to you Germanicus, well said.