Shroud ingredients for Cannith Crafting Really?

[BoBo2020]

Because players abused it to such a degree that, IMO, they seemed to feel the need to overcompensate.

XP from deconning shards were intended, levelling crafting purely by deconing level 1 shards were likely not - hence the change.

EDIT: It bothers me when people abuse a system to such a degree that an overcompensation is needed, one that hurts everyone. Except those that already have abused the system enough that they aren't really affected by the change.

I agree with you on much of this, but I hold no ill will toward those that used the 125,000 construct/deconstruct method. they were following the rules and were very public in these forums about how it worked.

I didn't use the so-called "RUCrazy method" because to me it did seem truly crazy. I can't and don't want to imagine crafting 125,000 shards for immediate deconstruction. I'm sure some people did it, but frankly it was only "efficient" from an essence perspective (did't use a lot of essences) but it would have consumed lots and lots of time (remember there was a timer on deconstruction prior to the previous update - the elimination of the timer on deconstruction would have changed this, hence the need to do away with xp from shard decon).

I leveled to 93 / 93 / 93 before the shut down without using that method. I did this by crafting whatever shard yielded the most xp for the resources consumed. I spent a lot of platinum on cheap +5 items and greater essences from the AH. I hit a brick wall around the 40's until unbound crafting widened and deepend the xp pool. I then crafted unbound shards for my guildies and they started sharing essences in order to help me along. I also took risks with recipes that might fail in order to maximize xp. I used a few store crafting boosters. I tested the whole system.

In short, I worked at this. I was careful with my resources, but took reasonable risks to maximize xp. This was not an abuse of the system but it still allowed me to (almost) max out.

I will also assert that leveling is still very possible (and efficient) using unbound recipes. I am still getting really good xp (150+) from many unbound shards that consume modest resources. For example, recipes with collectables tend to be very resource efficient, so I consolidated all of my collectables on my crafter.

EDIT: i think, what I took issue with was the theme that anyone with a high crafting level must have abused the system to get there. I got there through focused effort and at high expense in time and resources.

[Ehllie]

I haven't been crying in this thread (and the constant assertions that people who aren't happy with something are whining/crying is insulting and a blatant troll). I have been unhappy that Turbine ended up replacing the very-cheap-crafting that followed the fairly-rediculous-leveling with the new model of moderately-cheap-crafting that follows even-more-rediculous-leveling.

One large scale isn't that bad.
One large scale + Astral Diamonds/+1 Tomes/+2 Tomes + Demon's Blood + 400 Silver Flame Favor + 3779 essences plus the amortized cost of leveling to 93 in Divine and at least 60 in Arcane is slightly more than "NOTHING".

I am not exactly sure what in my post made you think it was directed to you in particular. I maintain that people who complain they might have to run shroud to make a GLOB shard are mostly crying. Does that mean i don't find the actual crafting xp progression to be a huge boring grind as it is now ? No.
Maybe you should chill a bit and not take any post as a personal attack next time.

[Chai]

Thus, I think the leveling will be made simpler in future updates. I'm not putting any money on this, but my gut tells me there will either be grind for the shards themselves or for leveling, and not for both. If it is both... I'll simply not bother with levels above 40. 40 is easily attainable with a minimal amount of work, more isn't, especially at the moment.

If its both, people are better off spending their time raiding than spending it grinding out crafting.

You mean I can have have BETTER stuff through actually PLAYING the game rather than leveling crafting in the same building for like amounts of time?

[gloopygloop]

I am not exactly sure what in my post made you think it was directed to you in particular. I maintain that people who complain they might have to run shroud to make a GLOB shard are mostly crying. Does that mean i don't find the actual crafting xp progression to be a huge boring grind as it is now ? No.
Maybe you should chill a bit and not take any post as a personal attack next time.

I didn't see any crying in here. Your post is certainly a personal attack on *someone*. I never claimed that it was a personal attack on me. I just recognize that it was an offensive, ignorant trolling post in general.

I don't believe that anyone here is "crying" that they have to pay a Large Scale in order to get a GEOB shard. I do believe that people are unhappy (with good reason) that Turbine is making inappropriate changes by adding significant expenses on top of an already extremely expensive process.

I have not seen anyone complain that +3 or +4 Holy of Lawful Outsider Bane is too expensive (and I think that most people would agree that it's probably too cheap even after the increased costs). But a +4 Holy of Lawful Oustider Bane is only a miniscule fraction of the cost of a +5 Holy Burst of Greater Evil Oustider Bane when you consider the amortized costs of leveling in the cost of the weapon.

Getting to the mid 30's is trivial. Getting to level 93 certainly isn't.

[Postumus]

Third issue, IT ISN'T EASIER THAN SHROUD RUNS. Really.

The shroud is ALWAYS up, REALLY EASY, and YOU GET PLAT. I get about 10k plat per run. And yeah, I even farm it (not for ingredients, but for plat, yeah, DDooring isn't all that bad). After about 7 runs per 4 capped toons, 1 day equals a few tier 2 items, and half a million plat. Your all thinking, "but who has the time?" I did that in the same amount of time it took to crush all those f'n items to level my canith crafting to 40!

YES!!! I could have run 24 shrouds in the same amount of play time I spent crafting to 50/50/50.


I would have earned xps, plat, game experience, crafting mats, and had a LOT more fun doing so than pulling that slot machine in House D.


At this point, crafting past 30 seems utterly pointless to me unless other aspects of this game have become so routine that I have nothing else to do.

[Truga]

If its both, people are better off spending their time raiding than spending it grinding out crafting.

You mean I can have have BETTER stuff through actually PLAYING the game rather than leveling crafting in the same building for like amounts of time?

Yeah, that was exactly my point. Having ~40 crafting is great for twinking, and is easily achievable. Trying to grind more is at the moment just a big waste of time you could spend raiding. (Which you will probably have to now anyway?)

[Postumus]

3) People who took advantage of the previous system now an extreme head start on people who crafted the way the devs wanted us to.

I don't think we can blame those who had the time or found a way to level as quickly as possible within the parameters of a system designed by Turbine. This happens in every game and in every system where advancement is rewarded is some way.


If this patch is really a reaction to too many people leveling too fast, it's just another example of poor design and poor execution. The choke points and decelerators to leveling should have been MORE stringent to prevent this.


Frankly I don't see spending another SECOND leveling my crafter until all the crafting dust finally settles. I expect several more changes, so I plan on selling every single essence I find until I am 100% this whole system doesn't suddenly go poof (again) or undergoes more changes that make me want to bang my head on the coffee table.

[Viisari]

I have not seen anyone complain that +3 or +4 Holy of Lawful Outsider Bane is too expensive (and I think that most people would agree that it's probably too cheap even after the increased costs). But a +4 Holy of Lawful Oustider Bane is only a miniscule fraction of the cost of a +5 Holy Burst of Greater Evil Oustider Bane when you consider the amortized costs of leveling in the cost of the weapon.

Getting to the mid 30's is trivial. Getting to level 93 certainly isn't.

Why would you want a +5 holy burst of geob? GLOB is only lvl 70 or so and on a silver weapon having geob is pointless. Especially so since Lit II is probably better on general trash beating, and min II is pretty good against demons so no need for chaotic banes.

Only shintao monks truly benefit from GEOB because they can make +5 Holy of GEOB and break DR on pretty much every boss with those. On other weapons it's better to use GLOB or GCOB because GLOB brings no additional benefits over them.

[QuantumFX]

You mean I can have have BETTER stuff through actually PLAYING the game rather than leveling crafting in the same building for like amounts of time?

If only that were true. They’re only forcing players into a single raid that’s been around for years. If they were going to do crafting the correct way then we would see the crafting ingredients in more than 2 adventure packs. We also wouldn’t be forced into rolling up a necromancer to do crafting.

[Dandonk]

EDIT: i think, what I took issue with was the theme that anyone with a high crafting level must have abused the system to get there. I got there through focused effort and at high expense in time and resources.

Fair enough. I read your post as if you did take advantage of it, but as you did not - I apologise.

[fool101]

I do think that anyone who wants to play in the Shroud can reasonably get to crafting level 30 without any enormous sacrifices. Those same players were still running Shroud with +1 Metalline of Pure Good weapons before Cannith crafting was around and that worked just fine too. At least some of the people running Shroud had MinII weapons and that was plenty. The PUGs that I was in went two rounds in part 4 a lot more often than we do today, but I haven't seen any increase in the odds of completion today compared to 2010 and 2009.

Obviously, Turbine wants casual players to get those +3 Holy of Lawful Outsider Bane weapons easily. But it's an exponential climb from 30 to 90. And the reward that you get for hitting 90 or 100 in crafting today seems pretty similar to the reward that Over Raided got for hitting guild level 100. You get to feel good about your achievement, but it doesn't really add anything to your gameplay.

^
This

I have only recently found time to run multiple Shrouds per week and the dual shards were really starting to get to me. I got to the mid-30s crafting though by deconstructing from these Shrouds and was able to make my holy of lawful outsider banes thereby halving the amount of GS weapons I had to make, while simultaneously working on HP items and lit2 weapons. Perfecto; but like noted, Shroud completion rate hasn't changed, simply the speed as of late.

[gloopygloop]

Why would you want a +5 holy burst of geob?

I thought GEOB might be something worth discussing because IT'S THE TITLE OF THE THREAD.

GLOB is only lvl 70 or so and on a silver weapon having geob is pointless. Especially so since Lit II is probably better on general trash beating, and min II is pretty good against demons so no need for chaotic banes.

Only shintao monks truly benefit from GEOB because they can make +5 Holy of GEOB and break DR on pretty much every boss with those. On other weapons it's better to use GLOB or GCOB because GLOB brings no additional benefits over them.

Actually, a whole bunch of both Lawful and Chaotic Evil Outsiders have DR/good, so a Holy Burst of GEOB is still a very nice weapon. Sure, it doesn't break Thraak Hound DR (who cares?) and it doesn't break Lailat's DR (doesn't matter unless you're running ADQ) and it doesn't break Reaver/Render DR, but it still does enough bonus damage that it's still vastly better than the +X Metalline of Pure Good that many people swing against them.

The only real question is whether it's better to swing a LitII or a +5 Holy Burst of Greater Evil Outisder Bane against things like Renders/Reavers, etc.

[adamr09]

I hate to see the generic crafting system still forces players to grind for specific items.

Here's the great part... it doesn't FORCE you to do anything. you can still craft hundreds of other items without LDSs. I'd much rather run Sins on casual a few times to get 1 scale than hours and hours in the shroud to get 5.

[puget]

I thought GEOB might be something worth discussing because IT'S THE TITLE OF THE THREAD.

I thought the title of the thread was "Shroud ingredients for Cannith Crafting Really?"

I agree with almost every post you made so far, ALMOST.....


Just saying.

[dkyle]

The only real question is whether it's better to swing a LitII or a +5 Holy Burst of Greater Evil Outisder Bane against things like Renders/Reavers, etc.

If we look at just non-Burst non-Base extra damage, so damage that is always the same for every weapon type, the LitII is up by 5.7 (0.7 is from the Blast's nat 20).

If we look at base damage, the Bane is up by somewhere between .5 (Greatsword) to 3 (Khopesh/Scimitar). This gets amplified by crits.

If we look at Burst damage, the LitII will always have more, up by between 3.15 worth per hit (Scimitar/Rapier), and 1.4 per hit (Axes/Hammers).

So, in short, they're pretty close, but LitII generally has the edge. Really, GEOB is nice if you don't have a LitII. But if you do have a LitII, there's little need for GEOB.

LitII can't really be adequately replaced by crafted options. You'd need a dozen banes, and swap between them, to duplicate to what LitII offers. As opposed to only needing two banes to cover what MinII is primarily useful for.

So the logical thing to do is to craft a LitII, and use Cannith crafting to fill the niches where it's not ideal. And for that purpose, GEOB has little use.

[gloopygloop]

I thought the title of the thread was "Shroud ingredients for Cannith Crafting Really?"

I agree with almost every post you made so far, ALMOST.....


Just saying.

Good point. It was just the OP and not the title of the thread.

That said, Greater Evil Oustider Bane and Greater Lawful Outsider Bane are both expensive - the GEOB is just WAAAY more expensive because of those extra 20-ish levels.

And if you compare GLOB before 10.1 to GEOB after 10.1, the difference is rediculous. GLOB before 10.1 required crafting level 63 in divine. GEOB after 10.1 doesn't require crafting level 93, but I'm not all that keen on trying the recipe at less than 95% when you consider how much it costs now.

Imagine if we spent 24 large Shroud ingredients to have a chance at crafting greensteel and that Turbine sold bugged Greensteel hammers that claim to increase our chances at crafting. That would be terrible on so many levels. The current Cannith crafting isn't quite that bad, but it's still pretty awful in a lot of ways.

I'd be more willing to forgive a few faults if the new crafting had more bright spots. As things stand now, I regret leveling past 40.

[Bobthesponge]

The Scale price is not outlandish, I would rather have seen alternatives available. Forcing everyone to farm for 1 specific item to craft an effect is annoying.


I hate to see the generic crafting system still forces players to grind for specific items.


The crafting across the board should offer alternative ingredients to craft similar effects. Let me use 3 Large Ebberon Shards, or 100 Planar shards, or a Flawless Siberys shard. Some ingredients call for Slaying arrows.. Do Slaying bolts work.. probably not.. why not...

Why should there be an alternative? If you're making a cake you're gonna need flour, milk and eggs. Subsituting rocks, squirrels and leaves won't work no matter how much you think it should to make your life easier.

[Tillann]

The highest-level crafters in our guild all have jobs, kids, etc., yet they took the time to figure out the system and level up in their free time outside of raids.

I assure you, they leveled to 90+ before the 10.1/10.2 ingredient requirements were added, and stockpiled all the shards they will ever need. Dkyle also falls into this area, and that's why he argues that these shards are easy enough to make.

As a side note, imho, large devil scales are easy to get compared to slaying arrows. How do you grind making arrows? I see any specific variety maybe once a year. Good luck.

[gloopygloop]

I assure you, they leveled to 90+ before the 10.1/10.2 ingredient requirements were added, and stockpiled all the shards they will ever need. Dkyle also falls into this area, and that's why he argues that these shards are easy enough to make.

As a side note, imho, large devil scales are easy to get compared to slaying arrows. How do you grind making arrows? I see any specific variety maybe once a year. Good luck.

Since 10.1 was only available for a few hours and 10.2 has only been avaialble for about a day, it's pretty likely that the people in this thread who have hit 90 did so before the 10.1 changes. It's also pretty much irrelevant except for the people who set up a crafting macro to grind Greater Beatitude I shards/deconstructions while they mowed the lawn or went to bed at night.

That said, the Greater Banes aren't "xp shards". They're expensive enough that you would not make any for XP alone and would only just happen to get XP for making the ones that you

Even before 10.1, at most 2K of the 40-ish thousand XP would have come from all of the Greater Banes combined.

I think that the changes that were made to the Greater Banes were a mistake, but that's not because it will make leveling harder. They're a mistake because it makes leveling less worthwhile.

[gloopygloop]

Why should there be an alternative? If you're making a cake you're gonna need flour, milk and eggs. Subsituting rocks, squirrels and leaves won't work no matter how much you think it should to make your life easier.

I can make cakes wihtout flour, milk or eggs. I know that I can do that because I've done it.

Having friends with wheat, dairy and egg alergies made for some creative baking, but it all worked out in the end.

Thankfully, I did not substitute rocks, squirrels and leaves (although I may have added chipmunk funk in place of vanilla).