Dark vs Light

[Maelodic]

SCROLL DOWN FOR TL;DR VERSION
though you may want to read it anyway because of my irresistible wit and charm.



Alright, so as I'm about to buy monk, seeing as I got to level 7 on lamannia, and after that short little "trial period" I have decided that the fun factor is superior to all other melees, and close to that of my caster, who owned melees in that previously.

The thing that appealed to me most about monk was the zippyness. (See http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=331119 for details)

And so I rolled one on lamamamamamannia and got it to 7. And please before you criticize me for using lamamannia to do such things, just don't. This is a thread for whimsical advice on monk. I used the Rockan Robin build to a tee for multiple reasons, reasons being:
-Stats that contribute to to-hit and damage (WIS for ki moves) also contribute to AC, hence you can have good damage and good AC.
-I don't want to be a barbarian with failing magical effects.

I decide to base my choice on two factors:
-Soloability/Survival
-Usefulness in parties.
Now, you don't get a party on lamammamannmanmnannia, so I decided to emulate this via hirelings. Not the perfect emulation, but it worked. Hirelings included:
Blast(Wizard)- If you don't know him by now you should, best low level hireling ever.
Cleric
Bard
Fighter
Sorc
Me

Though to be more realistic, an average pug on Sarlona would probably consist of:
Me
Wizard
Wizard
Wizard
Wizard
Wizard

E'rybody a wiz-ard.

So anyway I get on and I decide to make a shintao monk first, because I was like "Herp, ima self heal," but I quickly discovered that "herp, ima self heal" doesn't really do a whole lot unless you're just spamming the light move and using the heal finisher constantly, which was fine, but it wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

SO THEN I totally get on a dark monk and the difference was huge. Shadow Fade is horrendously useful, to the point where a good percent of my ki was going to that because of the ghost effect stacking with blur added to my armor bonus made me- a non-twinked out monk -a pretty good tank.

But then again, I'm skeptical about not going Shintao. Self healing is great, and a level 7 PROBABLY doesn't accurately produce the results I was thinking of.

Also, because shintao's remind me of this: http://zompist.files.wordpress.com/2.../kotor-dao.jpg

Looks awesome, right? Wrong. Looks epic. I know this isn't KOTOR. But it's close. Sorta. Kinda. Not really.

Anyway from my perception of things, which may be wrong. As in disprove any that are, please:
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Ninja Spy
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Pros:
Heavy damage.
Heavy debuffs.
500 HP hit.
Assassian style playing.
Sneak attack.
Short swords if desired.
Incorporealality
Only requires one feat

Cons:
No/Little self healing.
No party buffs.

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Shintao
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Pros:
Conceptially awesome
Potentially decent self healing.
Crowd control/in-your-face oriented
Smites
Jade stuff
Party buffs/Certain buffs requested by parties
More tank-ish due to self heals.
More of a "team player"
Full PrE completed.
Bypasses DR
Higher potential situational AC

Cons:
No shadow fade
Situational damage as apposed to pure damage
Less overall damage (no sneak attack, 3d6 is a lot, especially in wind stance)
"Out of the way" feats as a pre-req.

-------------
Soloability:
At level 7, Ninja Spy won this one. Just because of invis and higher damage, also because if all else fails, the healing meditate works wonders, as long as you're patient. Though the damage is considerably more with a party due to sneak attack.
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TL;DR:
I enjoy Ninja Spy at level 7 much more than Shintao at level 7, simply because Shintao's self healing just doesn't work well at that level, and pots are easy to come by, also the healing meditate fills in any gaps I need for soloing. Shintao is far more tanky, but again, the DPS given by ninja spy ends up killing the mobs faster and I don't take as much damage.
MAIN QUESTION(S) TIME
Does the Shintao's self healing become awesome enough to roll a Shintao monk? Does the stunning and buffs balance out the DPS enough to make it worth it? Or does the Ninja Spy always dance all over Shintao's DPS, and is always considerably higher? This is with the Rockan Robin build.

ALSO, if I were to roll a Shintao, how would the feat layout go? Rockan's page doesn't provide the shintao feats.

[elg582]

This is with the Rockan Robin build.

Not my personal favorite, but I'll try to keep my comments general.

Does the Shintao's self healing become awesome enough to roll a Shintao monk?

No.

Does the stunning and buffs balance out the DPS enough to make it worth it?

Matter of opinion, but no.

Or does the Ninja Spy always dance all over Shintao's DPS, and is always considerably higher?

Yes.



Ninja spy gives both massive DPS and the best defensive ability in the game.

Shintao gives automatic DR breaking, extra stuns, and utility.


Check this out, I think you'll like the direction: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328377

[Blank_Zero]

I played a Shintao at cap til update 9. I levelling as a dark monk though.

Dark monk has some ridiculous dps. I've pulled aggro plenty of times before I got my Tharnes 2 piece set :P

[goodspeed]

I'm thinking about switching to dark now that I got my vampire wraps. (Basically does the same thing as the shinto hand heal thing)

I find the only thing I really use is the sun stance thing and the heal finisher. I gave up the Phoenix thing because it was a waste of ap's when it all came in bottled form on the cheap.

[Zildoran]

The only problem dark monk really has is DR breaking, but with a holy burst ToD ring you can use a high + metalline wrap or something. That's the main advantage shintao has at high level is being very flexible with wraps. Jade tomb and Ku kan do are pretty awesome too.

[Blank_Zero]

The only problem dark monk really has is DR breaking, but with a holy burst ToD ring you can use a high + metalline wrap or something. That's the main advantage shintao has at high level is being very flexible with wraps. Jade tomb and Ku kan do are pretty awesome too.

If you have decent Wraps, you don't have to break DR til you're on Hard/Elite.

I still hit for 35-50 on first number damage without breaking DR. Then add Holy Burst, shocking Burst, and my +4 Acid of GEOB wraps (Icy Bursted). I've pulled aggro off well geared Barbarians in normal ToD/VoD.

[Uska]

Well most people always want a light monk for ToD

[Aerendil]

Each has its place in DDO, so really it's going to come down to whatever you desire.

Light - fantastic for solo. The healing abilities will keep you healed up (at 20 human monk, I could self-heal for about 90 a pop every few seconds without difficulty), and the DR-bypassing lets you tackle a lot of mobs care free. Kukan-do offers instant stunning, and jade tomb and smite tainted are also fantastic. That said, your dps on red nameds is less than stellar. Throw a light monk up against a red-named cleric (with limitless SP as NPCs tend to have) and it's often a no-win situation - your dps won't outmatch their Heal spells.

Dark - less great for solo, unless we're talking red nameds. Being able to instant-hit for 500-1875, depending on stance, debuffs, etc., is downright insane. There's not much that can stand up to that solo, and it's a helluva nice dps boost in parties / raids as well (not to mention the +3d6 sneak attack dice; or +6d6 if Half-elf with Rogue dile).
Downside is the lack of DR bypassing, and lack of self-heals (relying solely on group healers, heal pots, or your wholeness of body - which is downtime only).

That said, with the new crafting, and silver handwraps slowly making their way into general circulation (thanks in large part to new drop rates in Devil Assault), Dark is slowly winning out IMO.

[DevHead]

You could go Half-Elf that uses Earth stance and Cleric dilly. Heal scrolls + Vampiric Stonedust wraps = decent DPS, good self-healing, and some CC with Stuns and that Stone Prison thing going off.

[nolaureltree000]

my take on the light v. dark monks and what they lend best to:

if you are going for a high dps/STR based monk then go dark.

if you are going for a high WIS/stun/group support/AC monk then go light.

[SetofBs]

You could go Half-Elf that uses Earth stance and Cleric dilly. Heal scrolls + Vampiric Stonedust wraps = decent DPS, good self-healing, and some CC with Stuns and that Stone Prison thing going off.

If you are talking dark, then fine. IMO a light monk doesn't need the cleric dilly and is better served with rogue. Perhaps if you only solo'd cleric dilly would be OK, but in groups its kinda worthless.

[Maelodic]

Not my personal favorite, but I'll try to keep my comments general.

Ninja spy gives both massive DPS and the best defensive ability in the game.

Shintao gives automatic DR breaking, extra stuns, and utility.


Check this out, I think you'll like the direction: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328377

I do like the direction, but I'm a halfling buff, also Rockan I KNOW will be great regardless, based on the many, many posts that say so, also it's a halfling build, built for halfling. You have no idea how much I don't like not playing as a halfling.

Each has its place in DDO, so really it's going to come down to whatever you desire.

Light - fantastic for solo. The healing abilities will keep you healed up (at 20 human monk, I could self-heal for about 90 a pop every few seconds without difficulty), and the DR-bypassing lets you tackle a lot of mobs care free. Kukan-do offers instant stunning, and jade tomb and smite tainted are also fantastic.
Don't those only work on extraplanar creatures, and if attacking not those things, doesn't it just not work?
That said, your dps on red nameds is less than stellar. Throw a light monk up against a red-named cleric (with limitless SP as NPCs tend to have) and it's often a no-win situation - your dps won't outmatch their Heal spells.
So the DPS difference is huge; similar to the difference between a warpriest and barbarian.

Dark - less great for solo, unless we're talking red nameds. Being able to instant-hit for 500-1875, depending on stance, debuffs, etc., is downright insane. There's not much that can stand up to that solo, and it's a helluva nice dps boost in parties / raids as well (not to mention the +3d6 sneak attack dice; or +6d6 if Half-elf with Rogue dile).
Downside is the lack of DR bypassing, and lack of self-heals (relying solely on group healers, heal pots, or your wholeness of body - which is downtime only).
Wouldn't their soloing be close to equal as long as you don't have to heal yourself mid-combat? As long as wholeness of body increases it's healing with leveling, and I'm presuming it does, only-downtime healing would work fine soloing as long as you have potions to fall back on, right? Also invis, which can shed agro and make yourself scarce, time to rethink and heal up, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, these are just assumptions. Vamperic handwraps would be useful too when soloing, and you'd generate hit points like you do Ki.

That said, with the new crafting, and silver handwraps slowly making their way into general circulation (thanks in large part to new drop rates in Devil Assault), Dark is slowly winning out IMO.

Responses in orange. Because I'm a lazy panda.

[R0cksteady]

One more advantage to Dark monk is the cheaper PrE. You can take 2 Grandmaster stances without giving up too much. Definitely nice to have Grandmaster Sun and Grandmaster Wind.

[Lleren]

Level up as Dark, switch to Light at 18 or so for Tower of Despair raiding and easy DR breaking until you've got a Holyburst Ring, then back to Dark if you still prefer that.

I don't know which is harder to give up; Ranged Stun, or Touch of Death and 25% miss chance. I think it really depends where your endgame is for what is better.

[Aerendil]

TehbeWop, to answer your last comments:

1) Yeah, Shintao focuses mostly on extraplanar mobs. However, once you hit endgame, a *lot* of what you fight is extraplanar. I've tackled a room of orange mobs on a light monk which I could *not* do on a dark monk, more than likely. Dismiss the first mob; kukan-do and burn down the next; jade tomb the third and burn him down; and then smite tainted and burn down the fourth. That'd be hard to do on a dark.

2) DPS difference is huge if (1) we're discussing red-nameds; and (2) if you're discussing a situation (such as grouping) when you don't have aggro, and the Dark's +3d6 sneak attack damage is kicking in.
If solo, which it sounds like you do a lot of, where you always have aggro, then dps difference is really only noticeable on the red nameds. Dark will have an easier time with them, but Light will more easily plow through the trash and be full hp.

3) "As long as you don't have to heal yourself mid-combat". You will. Always. Even with vampiric wraps and fists of light, your healing won't keep up with a lot of incoming damage. Take the orthon that smacks you for 60 damage in one shot, or the cleric that casts searing light (no save) for 110. You *will* need in-combat healing at one point or another. Dark relies only on potions or, more effectively, a healing hireling.

[uthanak69]

Shintao > Ninja Spy. Period.

My main is a Monk who is a Shintao, and his last life was also a Shintao monk. Any other monk or monk life I have will be Shintao.

[Seladon]

hi

<<I've tackled a room of orange mobs on a light monk which I could *not* do on a dark monk, more than likely. Dismiss the first mob; kukan-do and burn down the next; jade tomb the third and burn him down; and then smite tainted and burn down the fourth. That'd be hard to do on a dark.>>
======
you must have incredible luck on your rolls.
or i have the worst.
I am usually so much cooling flesh when i try that.

[DevHead]

If you are talking dark, then fine. IMO a light monk doesn't need the cleric dilly and is better served with rogue. Perhaps if you only solo'd cleric dilly would be OK, but in groups its kinda worthless.

I did mean Dark, indeed. And I think there is plenty of room and utility in a light monk going with cleric dilly, too.

Shintao > Ninja Spy. Period.

My main is a Monk who is a Shintao, and his last life was also a Shintao monk. Any other monk or monk life I have will be Shintao.

I disagree. Both have benefits and downsides. You also seem to forget that Ninja Spy doesn't even have a Tier III yet. I'd suggest trying it again when that is released.

[SensaiRyu]

Being a dark monk lover and shintao hater... having run 36 lvls with dark and switching to shintao at lvl 16 of my first TR... here's my thoughts on the matter. First life Wis/Dex, second Str/Wis. I got me a pair of metalline/good short swords for DR beaters since I still need to get a TOD ring to use with my metalline wraps.

As dark HElf rogue dilly:
Yea, the 1hko on a single mob trash or finishing a boss quickly a well-timed DR-bypassing 250 (one hit save) to 2000 (lucky 4-hit no save) dmg is quite awesome. Hard to get DR bypassing handwraps. But ToD bypasses DR.

Metalline/silver/cold iron wraps of +10stun aren't easy to find but you can make some. And -burst/good won't bypass DR.

As light HElf rogue dilly and no phoenix:
Jade Tomb on a beholder almost always procs. Situationally better than ToD imo.
4-5 stuns (if you count tomb as a stun) = Great CC even in high dungeons.
Much more handwraps to use (holy burst +10 stun) and +stun stacks with kukan-do.

Comparing the two:
First off, I think experience has a lot to do with the success of one or the other type of monk. Each has its own play style. One reason I'm doing better as a light is my playing style - lots of stuns instead of focusing on getting enuf ki to ToD.

I don't fear reavers/rensors/flensors/bearded devils/orthos anymore since I have DR beater/stun wraps. Even in eChrono... I have little problems.

With a TOD holy ring I can finally use my unstable wraps

Never used dark finishers - I use light finishers almost all the time.

Would I go back to dark after I get my metalline/good wraps? ATM, nope. I just don't think that ToD beats out the flexibility and all the shintao/light moves I'm still learning.

And I can't wait to do this (from Martens thread).

[Maelodic]

Thanks for the input guys, this is getting more interesting as it goes.

Also protip, I don't have Shavarath. I have gianthold, sands, and vale. So there's something to consider. I'm also a generally new player, my highest is 12, and it seems as though I'll die less as a shintao, and also the shintao's DR breaking opens up new handwraps to me, seeing as though I don't have an array of them to begin with, that seems to be pretty solid.

Also, I guess it would make sense that you mostly fight extra planar **** (I keep forgetting the carp word is blocked) at endgame, seeing as everyone says Greater evil outsider bane is the best thing ever.

I'm heavily considering it now. I think I'll LR my monk on lamamammannia, see how it goes.

Playstyle should be like:
Light finisher when needed.
Keep walk on the sun and dance of clouds buffed. Other buffs situational
Light hit bosses and heavy HP things for healing.
Stun ****(Again, that carp word. psh) for funsies.

Right? ALSO, does the dance of clouds buff stack with blur? That'd be pretty neat.

Also, how should the feats go? I do like Rockan Robin build just because it's awesome, should I use cleave as my feat for Shintao, or Luck of Heros? Also, if I'm wrong, any other 28 pt halfling build would be awesome.