SuperBard! 18 STR 8 CHA

[callmeRand]

I don't know if this is a comment or a question. Whatever it is, here it is:

Where do all these builds with max STR and barely a glance at CHA come from? I honestly don't get it. Why is charisma emphatically not the primary stat for a Bard in all these non-hagglebot builds?

Are Bards which have been super focused on melee somehow really as, or more (!) worthwhile than a haste Fighter or rage Barbarian? From my very limited perspective, I could even see a Cleric as more viable at melee capability since they can wear heavy armor and have some pretty decent buffs by caster level 3.

What secret am I missing about this class that makes it a first choice for melee? Displacement? Fascinate? What's the thing about a STR based Bard that makes it a good choice over all the other naturally strength based classes, or other very strong buff/CC classes, any of which could also focus on strength and get better healing or magic damage spells at the same time? Or both if you count the Favored Soul.

I ask only because I like the idea of the Bard, but my research into builds here has confused the hell out of me as to why these barely a Bard variations would be played.

[Maxallu]

Give yourself haste/rage/gh/displacement/and warchanter songs and whack things in the head with a greataxe or whatever. Not all that silly to expect some good dps numbers with those things going for you.

[phalaeo]

You are aware that Melee Clerics often dump WIS. Does that make them less of a Cleric?

Also, Full Plate is not always the "go-to" determinator of whether one should be in front line melee. Many Barbs, Rangers, Monks, etc. wear Robes.

To answer your question... why should I pump CHA if I want to play more of a melee role? Unless it's a finesse Bard, you need STR for to-hit... STR isn't always just a damage output indicator.

I'd love to try and address it further, but there are so much misunderstanding of the Bard class in your post that I (seriously) don't even know where to start.

I'm curious as to why you seem to think that other classes get stronger buffs than Bards... IMO, Bards (especially with the PrEs) get some of the best buffing capabilities in the game.

[barryman5000]

You can self haste, blur, displace, heal and you get a decent BaB like a rogue or cleric would. You also get songs to make all your melee better. No other class is as good as a bard for being a self-buffing melee if you go without multiclassing. Heck, you even get umd as a class skill so you can probably no-fail heal scroll heal with 8 cha.

Bards are nice. <3

[Aashrym]

You only need charisma if you plan on using it for UMD and offensive spells. Healing and buffs have no DC for the benefits to the party, but better melee does. This has always been true for bards, clerics, and fvs's; each of which can rely on buffs, healing, and melee.

[Lyzern]

It's also because Cha is mostly important for CC and Bards' CC spells aren't great, which drives many people away from this option.

Ninja'd.

[Shade]

Bards can either go caster or melee spec. Trying to do both will result in a character pretty bad at both.

Caster bards can be quite effective, but they can't perform anywhere near the level of a maxxed out pure caster, to the point where most groups will always look for a caster as well ,even if they have a heavily specialized caster bard with them.

Where as melee bards can always contribute say amount. As melee always stacks.. But CC doesn't .. Its either happening or its not.

As DDO is a game that heavily rewards specialization. So the more focus you put into 1 particular area, the better you will do.

As what you've given up in terms of other areas - can be made up for. Usually by other players more focused on the task, but in this case, simply can be done thru equipment.

That said, a 8 CHA bard can be very tough to play early on as youd take quite a while before you could even start spell casting (11 cha min required) and even longer to get the coveted 39 umd to use heal scrolls.

Most recommended bard melee builds do max str. But also fit what they can into cha/con.. Which generally means 12-14 points a piece. Other stats quite often get dumped.

RE: Cleric meleeing better.

Well a warchanter bard fully buffed up fighting solo vs
a battlecleric again buffed and fighting melee solo.. (not using offensive spells at all)
I'd say the bard will perform better almost every time.

But if they were both in a group, where the cleric can benfit from the bards songs/buff too? Then the cleric will do better, as many of his buffs are self only (divine power/might/favor) while nearly everything a bard has to offer is AOE.

[wolflordnexus]

I don't know if this is a comment or a question. Whatever it is, here it is:

Where do all these builds with max STR and barely a glance at CHA come from? I honestly don't get it. Why is charisma emphatically not the primary stat for a Bard in all these non-hagglebot builds?

Are Bards which have been super focused on melee somehow really as, or more (!) worthwhile than a haste Fighter or rage Barbarian? From my very limited perspective, I could even see a Cleric as more viable at melee capability since they can wear heavy armor and have some pretty decent buffs by caster level 3.

What secret am I missing about this class that makes it a first choice for melee? Displacement? Fascinate? What's the thing about a STR based Bard that makes it a good choice over all the other naturally strength based classes, or other very strong buff/CC classes, any of which could also focus on strength and get better healing or magic damage spells at the same time? Or both if you count the Favored Soul.

I ask only because I like the idea of the Bard, but my research into builds here has confused the hell out of me as to why these barely a Bard variations would be played.

What does a bard bring to the table heres the list

1) BUFFS!!! No one does it better so you can not sacrifice this.
2) Healing Others do it better but it's always nice to have for emergencies
3) Spell CC others do it better and There are a lot of situations where yous simply won't work
4) Melee others do it better but every person hitting a mob is a little faster that mob goes away

so if you have to give up 1 thing from the list most will chose Spell CC as it's prety much redundant. Even a dumped cha bard has verry impresive DC's with song CC The only thing saving spell CC right now is that Spell singer is actually a **** good PRE with regening mana and improving casters who are already the workhorses.

[azrael4h]

I don't know if this is a comment or a question. Whatever it is, here it is:

Where do all these builds with max STR and barely a glance at CHA come from? I honestly don't get it. Why is charisma emphatically not the primary stat for a Bard in all these non-hagglebot builds?

Because unless you are going for a full out spellcasting bard, CHA is not needed in huge quantities. You need 16 to cast all your spells; easily obtained with 8 base, +2 tome, +6 item.

Are Bards which have been super focused on melee somehow really as, or more (!) worthwhile than a haste Fighter or rage Barbarian? From my very limited perspective, I could even see a Cleric as more viable at melee capability since they can wear heavy armor and have some pretty decent buffs by caster level 3.

Heavy armor is irrelevant as AC, even on traditional "tank" classes such as Paladins and Fighters, is difficult to get into a viable range past a certain point. You rarely see heavy armor at later parts of the game, as it is better to wear robes/outfits for the effects and fast swapping. Even on high-AC builds, they often take Monk levels for unarmored AC bonus and WIS to AC, and get a higher AC without armor than with.

Divines don't get their best and main combat buffs until level 4 spells (7-8 class level). They only have a smidgen more hp from hit-die, though the FvS will have more from Toughness enhancements and eventually 5 more DR than the Warchanter. They are better healers and nukers and if built for it better at CC (and actually have instant-kills other than the regular melee weapons).

The Haste fighter only hastes themselves for 20s every 30s. The Rage Barbarian can't heal themselves through the thick of battle. The Warchanter Bard heals themselves and all near them through battle, and can haste the Rage Barbarian, the Rogue assassin, and the goat while doing it. And quite possibly taking less damage in the melee than the AC tank thinking his 50AC and tower shield matters in Shavarath, at the same time as out-damaging them.

What secret am I missing about this class that makes it a first choice for melee? Displacement? Fascinate? What's the thing about a STR based Bard that makes it a good choice over all the other naturally strength based classes, or other very strong buff/CC classes, any of which could also focus on strength and get better healing or magic damage spells at the same time? Or both if you count the Favored Soul.

I ask only because I like the idea of the Bard, but my research into builds here has confused the hell out of me as to why these barely a Bard variations would be played.

Actually, Bard is the only class capable of investing totally into STR and remain capable of viable crowd control; full out melee Clerics and FvS dump WIS to one degree or another, leaving their own CC DCs abysmal. Fascinate is based off the Perform skill as well as CHA, and is easily buffed to obscene levels. It also ignores SR. Otto's Irresistible also has no save, which is the main reason Bards run to 16/x or 16/x/x builds.

Bards are naturally suited to a melee build due to the proliferation of buffs they get which directly benefit their melee. Inspire Courage, Haste, Rage, Focusing Chant, Greater Heroism, Inspire Heroics, etc... they all benefit the Bard's melee capabilities. Furthermore, the regular melee benefit by the nearby presence of the Bard as they typically cast centered on themselves; both mass cures and haste and rage. Displacement and Blur largely offset their lower hit die by mitigating damage, and for serious healing, they will more easily have the UMD to throw out a Heal scroll.

They are not "barely a bard variant" but full out Bards. Solo to Solo a melee-built Bard can out dps a divine caster built for melee, and quite probably can out-survive a comparably geared regular melee so long as they have a good player behind the controls. I've seen 16/2/2 Warchanters solo heal raids as well.

This isn't WoW. Classes =/= capabilities; you build for what you want to do. A STR based Bard is extremely powerful and capable member of any group, IMO more so than the CHA-based caster-bard. Your idea of a Bard is not the same as what a DDO Bard truly is capable of.

[callmeRand]

I'd love to try and address it further, but there are so much misunderstanding of the Bard class in your post that I (seriously) don't even know where to start.

I asked because, as I said in my top post, the builds confused me.

I read official game information about Bards, go looking for example builds to get me started, and find that most ignore that information. I shouldn't be surprised, considering how bad the compendium is, and how bad many dev designed creation path builds are.

I did not come here to get into into a war, or a p*ssing contest, with WC Bard players.

I didn't play WoW, azrael4h, so I wouldn't know about their take on Bards.

I do know that official DDO information insists that charisma is their most important stat. The DDO wiki also thinks it's pretty important. Maybe you can go tell DDO that their "idea of a Bard is not the same as what a DDO Bard truly is capable of", and get off my asterisk for asking about the contradiction?

Information about this game is dismal. What wasn't poorly written, or just wrong, from day one, is mostly outdated and/or incomplete. Bard information is among the worst I've seen. At least so far.

[Aashrym]

I asked because, as I said in my top post, the builds confused me.

I read official game information about Bards, go looking for example builds to get me started, and find that most ignore that information. I shouldn't be surprised, considering how bad the compendium is, and how bad many dev designed creation path builds are.

I did not come here to get into into a war, or a p*ssing contest, with WC Bard players.

I didn't play WoW, azrael4h, so I wouldn't know about their take on Bards.

I do know that official DDO information insists that charisma is their most important stat. The DDO wiki also thinks it's pretty important. Maybe you can go tell DDO that their "idea of a Bard is not the same as what a DDO Bard truly is capable of", and get off my asterisk for asking about the contradiction?

Information about this game is dismal. What wasn't poorly written, or just wrong, from day one, is mostly outdated and/or incomplete. Bard information is among the worst I've seen. At least so far.

LOL, some of use have told them we need to make CHA more useful on bards. There are plenty of suggestions for bard improvements on the forums. Unfortunately we don't dictate what will be changed or the priorities that development needs to follow.

I wish.

[junta74]

I asked because, as I said in my top post, the builds confused me.

I read official game information about Bards, go looking for example builds to get me started, and find that most ignore that information. I shouldn't be surprised, considering how bad the compendium is, and how bad many dev designed creation path builds are.

I did not come here to get into into a war, or a p*ssing contest, with WC Bard players.

I didn't play WoW, azrael4h, so I wouldn't know about their take on Bards.

I do know that official DDO information insists that charisma is their most important stat. The DDO wiki also thinks it's pretty important. Maybe you can go tell DDO that their "idea of a Bard is not the same as what a DDO Bard truly is capable of", and get off my asterisk for asking about the contradiction?

Information about this game is dismal. What wasn't poorly written, or just wrong, from day one, is mostly outdated and/or incomplete. Bard information is among the worst I've seen. At least so far.

I played PnP a lot in my youth and started with a high charisma as well (seeing as most official guides tell you it's important.) Then I found the wisdom of hundreds of play-testers here on the boards. I wouldn't follow the compendium, i would find a build here on the forums that suits my play style, level it up for a while and see if you want to branch it in another direction for what you like to play. As to strength vs. charisma, I found out quickly that if you can't hit anything, you won't survive long.

[gloopygloop]

I asked because, as I said in my top post, the builds confused me.

I read official game information about Bards, go looking for example builds to get me started, and find that most ignore that information. I shouldn't be surprised, considering how bad the compendium is, and how bad many dev designed creation path builds are.

I did not come here to get into into a war, or a p*ssing contest, with WC Bard players.

I didn't play WoW, azrael4h, so I wouldn't know about their take on Bards.

I do know that official DDO information insists that charisma is their most important stat. The DDO wiki also thinks it's pretty important. Maybe you can go tell DDO that their "idea of a Bard is not the same as what a DDO Bard truly is capable of", and get off my asterisk for asking about the contradiction?

Information about this game is dismal. What wasn't poorly written, or just wrong, from day one, is mostly outdated and/or incomplete. Bard information is among the worst I've seen. At least so far.

I agree with everything that you've said in this post.

Cha is an incredibly important stat for Bards. If you don't have enough Cha, then you're going to have serious problems and it's good that the official DDO information and the DDO wiki point that out.

Because it's so easy in DDO to increase your stats with buffs and with gear, however, you don't need to have all that much invested in Cha in order to have "enough".

If you want to have a good DC (essentially the "To Hit" for spells) on your spells, you'll need to have every single possible point of Cha and even then your DCs will only be "good" and not ouststanding. Because of that, some players decide to just ignore offensive spell DCs and then they can essentially ignore Cha as long as they have "enough".

On the bright side, even if you essentially ignore Cha and only have the minimum amount required to cast spells (16 Cha to cast level 6 spells), your song based abilities will still have DCs that blow every other class out of the water. Your perform skill (which your DCs are based on) will be high enough that you can charm anything in the game that can be charmed even without any significant investment in Cha.

Similarly, Wisdom seems like an important stat for Paladins and Rangers, but Wis can be ignored as long as you have some way to get to the magic number of "10 + spell level" so that you can cast your spells.

My Favored Soul started with a 6 Wisdom and he currently sits on a 14 Wisdom at level 20. His spell DCs are absolutely horrible, but he's still a very effective character because he just focuses on spells that buff himself or the party, spells that heal himself or the party, offensive spells that don't have a saving throw (Searing Light and Divine Punishment) or spells that are still effective even if their target makes its saving throw (Blade Barrier).

On the other hand, my Wizard started with an 18 Int, 5 level-ups into Int, the best tome I could find and every single piece of stacking +Int gear that I could get my hands on. I also took Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for the appropriate spell school(s) as feats and his PrE also adds to his spell DCs. That's because the spells that I chose for him are primarily offensive and depend on having their target fail its saving throw. And even with every single source of DC increasing feats or gear or whatever, I *still* need to throw additional spells at some enemies in order to decrease their various saving throws before I can get some of my spells to land.

Spell DCs in DDO are very much "go big or go home" as far as I've experienced. And if you're not going to go absolutely nuts chasing every single source of DC increase that you can find, then you might as well dump that stat (or come close to dumping it if you need it for another reason).