Higher Level Content. 21+ Content. An Idea.

[Ungood]

Higher Level Content. 21+ Content. An Idea.

I would like to start off by saying that I personally do not have much drive for higher level (Post 20th) content, but, I see that many people do want this (some people in my guild even) and I have been pondering this. Because, we all know that raising the level cap in a game causes many issues on how this affects and impacts the rest of the game.

The Problems with just Raising the Level Cap are: (In no particular order)

1: Higher level builds will trivialize the existing established “high level” content. This is a known problem with any MMO that considers raising the level cap. Once the level cap gets raised, what was once hard, becomes trivial and easy.

2: Invalidation of existing top level gear. Invariably, when a level cap is raised, content to match it gets added in. This new content always has new gear and equipment which makes the existing old “epic” gear invalid as a top tier/end game items.

While I am sure that there are other issues, these two issues are the biggest ones any game designer faces as they contemplate raising the level cap. This is also a concern that we as players face when there is new (higher level) content being added. How does it affect our current build and gear in the dynamic of the game.

So facing this situation, I have what I believe to be a solid suggestion to the developers to raise the level cap without truly disrupting the current game environment.

The First Part is determining where can we put in the New Content?

Since we already have the Battle Ground (Shavarath) while they are eclipsing our home plane, and it seems we have a planes caller that can (or wants to) open up other dimensions. This lends itself well to expansion. However, again, we really can’t just slap on 20+ level stuff and not expect the current game world to get twisted by it.

So, this needs to be done in such a way as to divide the content from each other. But we have a direction. To the Outer Planes we shall go! So the start of my proposal is to make the new higher level content to take place in the outer planes of existence.

So, we will war with divine and devilish beings on their home world. That sounds impressive, I hope at least (and seems like a fitting next step for most players)

So we know where we are going.

Now, how do we allow this to happen and not impact the rest of the game.

The lore: We as adventures, Mortal beings have traveled to the fringe areas of the outer planes where they can almost touch the prime material plane, hence why we can open portals to those domains in the first place, and equally so, why we can summon stuff from those planes, and they can impact and impose upon our Prime Material Plane so easily.

(This is because, like the Eclipse, and the location of the planes and planets needs to be just right, when the planet moves away from our home planet the affect of the physical works weakens upon them, and they become more forging to our mortal frame)

So, following that Lore Idea: We have not traveled to the outer planes for any extended length of time, mainly because our mortal bodies could not handle being exposed to the pure madness of Xoriat, or the tangible feeling of death from Dolurrh, etc, etc, etc. Even down to the Horror of the realm of Nightmare.

The Lore would be: simply put, our mortal bodies could not withstand the pure energies of the outer planes if they move too far away from our material home plane. Hence why even Daelkyr need to make bodies fitting to this realm. The bodies they have that withstand their outer planes are vastly different than what works on our plane.

Additional Lore would be: This barrier between what mortal flesh could withstand and what the outer planes are like as they move away from the material plan, is what stopped the Giants of Old from waging war directly against the Dal Quor in the Dreaming Dark by going into the realm of Nightmare and making sure they never came to our plane again. Simply put, they could not survive for any extended time in the outer planes, no matter how mighty their flesh was.

So, how do we get out there if the Giants of Old Xen’drik could not?

The answer lies in Inquisitor Lightbringer (Wrath of Flame Quest) who by her virtue of faith and truthfulness have befriended the Archons, and thus allowing us to assist them in battle on the plane of the Savarath “The battle ground” while it is close to our realm. Our performance there is what set us apart from the Giants of Old, we have shown our willingness to fight for the cause of justice, honor and truth, and not simply to wage war for the sake of war (or such is the story at least, I mean really we are doing it for exp and loot, but hey, it’s fantasy! It needs some lore here!) Since we have archons (That winged archon in Wrath of Flame is a Trumpet, and I think FvS can summon a Lantern Archon)

So, The idea presented here, would be for players who wanted to progress past level 20, to have shed their mortal flesh bodies and be remade into hardier divine/outer worldly bodies (yes even War forged would have to be transformed), but how do we do this?

The story would go: An archon has come down (maybe the one freed in Wrath of Flame) and give some of her life blood to be mixed with the blood of a mortal to create that mortal a new body, a Body that could withstand the pure energies of the outer planes, and continue the war where the other mortal races left off. This transformation would require a Pure Immortal Heartstone (Requires 20 Epic tokens from the Epic vendor like a Heart of Wood) to do so. And the Archon would be placed in the Twelve.

Once the Heartstone was used, the character gets an upgrade. They get +4 Build points (no matter how many build points they were), become “Divine” which means they get golden glowing eyes, a “golden glow” and now they can progress to the Outer Planes and continue upon their leveling. Additional Boons would be: They could no longer be stat/level drained or insta killed (Perma Death Ward) (This is to symbolize their immortal state at this point). The Character would get two forms. One form for when they were in the outer planes (This would be a giant form: I figure Dwarves could use the Fire Giant Body model, Humans could use Ice Giant Model, War Forged could use Iron Golem Model, etc, and let the designers and art department figure out the rest, they are quite creative people) and a “walking among the mortals” form. Which would be a form that would be roughly 150% their original size.

Now, this “New Content” would not be for the casual player, or the “Just getting by” player or for “Oh look I just made it to 20th, now what do I do” player. This would be the type of content that makes your teeth grind, and unless you laughed at the old content, this is not the place for you.

The idea here is to make content that challenging to vets and people who are highly skilled at the game, and outright brutal in some cases. This is focused at people who have all the gear they need, and are looking for the “Next Step” in the game. A place where Gods Fight, and Immortals Die! This new content would be directed at where the best of the players go to test their mettle against the might of endless legions of outer realms and make firm and true that threat by Tashkaar the Dream Stealer (Finding the Path) of who will best who in the realm of dream! And will he be the one to scream for mercy again!

So, with that, a new city-zone would be added, a massive grand hall of planes having doors to all the planes themselves, (mainly to Outdoor Zones) and be filled with archons and divine beings, not some floating rock held aloft by jackal headed devil merchants.

In this city would be a Titanic Altar that would allow a player to upgrade their gear to “Divine” levels. Any epic item put in the altar would become a Maximized Epic (Item), this change would give it an additional Crystal Augment Slot. An epic-able item put into the Titanic Altar would become a Titanic (item) which really would just raise it to epic level. However doing it this way, players who ground out their Epic gear would get a benefit of their gear still being better. Also, in this new zone, only “Ingredients” would drop. These Ingredients would be used to upgrade existing gear the player had (no new gear would be made available, just augments to the existing gear IE: Better Crystals, Additional Rituals, Fourth Tier Green Steel, (Law and Chaos added in) etc, etc). Such is my idea to eliminate the impact of new gear on the current game. Also, a Divine Player could not equip any non-Titan-upgraded gear.

My idea is that most named items, almost all raid items, any epic-able items and all Green Steel items would be usable by the now Divine Player.

Divine players also could not get quests from mortals anymore, as they are beyond such trifling mundane concerns. Thus they would not make trivial the exiting content either (They would however be able to enter any Epic Quest, on Epic Difficulty) to allow them to still upgrade their epic gear items in case they wanted to do that before using the Titanic Altar.

This is my proposal for how to add in levels 21 – 25 to the game, without impacting the rest of the game, or hurting the efforts that players have already put into this game to gear their characters to the best of their abilities.


(If you read it all, thank you, I understand it was a bit long)

[Aelonwy]

It's a very interesting proposal. I actually like that there would be no NEW gear per say only existing epic and greensteel that would be further improved. I also like that after becoming divine they could no longer do any quests in the general game except those on epic difficulty. I'm not certain about the character model/size difference but hey I guess it could work.

I would tenatively suggest that becoming divine is not an all in one thing but perhaps a quest series in and of itself that after each quest the PC gained one step (one quality) of quasi-divinity. I would also be against locking in particular changes that would cosmetically affect all characters the same. That is "everyone" having golden eyes or golden halo etc. I would very much prefer options even a small choice such as gold or silver or crystal or opal eyes and maybe the halo reflecting one's choice of alignment such that LG is gold, NG is silver, CG is opal, N is grey, LN white, CN anarchic etc. No one goes to so much effort playing and sculpting their character to enjoy having them shuffled into some kind of uniform sameness.

[Dagolar]

Good thoughts, certainly hope the devs contemplate them and see what they can make of them.
Certainly, having epic level toons get benefits from lower level quests, or having the top tier items challenged.. there are a lot of things that have to be worked out before epic level questing can be included. Item upgrades and play limitations definitely are necessary.

Though; I could see a lot of ML 20 epic items dropping (Much like tier 1 epics from Crystal Cove, but not upgradeable) in epic quests. Something that's strong and meaningful, but not overly competitive with existing, hard-earned items. Include some sort of earnable upgrade for (GS3/Maxed out epic items) and you have potential. Certainly, we do love our upgrading.

[Corwinsky]

And to come back to earth if developers in other MMOs have raised the level cap and gear it's because it financially made sense.
After a while people get tired of not being able to progress anymore in terms of power (levels/gear) and quests they can accomplish with this new power.
So yes DDO will have eventually to raise the cap of the players of the gear and of the quests or they will economically die from people moving to another game.

But your suggestion will never happened as is because they need to raise the level of the game so that most players including the more casual ones stay and can be part of it.
So it can't be aimed at/reserved to a tiny frange of the community that finds elite TOD a walk in the cake.
The ROI wouldn't be worth it to them.

[Dagolar]

Clearly, not everything up there is feasible or advisable. Also reminds me a lot of Diablo II, Act IV. Still worth contemplating.

[R0cksteady]

My gradual reaction as I read this post

"What"
"This is kind of dumb"
"I don't think this would work"
"Actually that's kind of cool if done right, i guess"
"Well, that could be fun"
"Holy hell this is actually awesome"
"PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN"

[Ungood]

It's a very interesting proposal. I actually like that there would be no NEW gear per say only existing epic and greensteel that would be further improved. I also like that after becoming divine they could no longer do any quests in the general game except those on epic difficulty. I'm not certain about the character model/size difference but hey I guess it could work.

In regards to the Model Size, When I was first bouncing this around with my friends, the idea was that D&D Lore stats that magic items will grow/shrink to match their user. (I think the values were roughly Fire Giant to Elf size was about as far as any magic item could be changed, but that is not really an issue) and the idea is once an item became "Titanic" is was no longer able to get small enough to be used by a normal "Mortal" being. Hence the larger model. I will admit that when we started to work this out, a halfling even 150% larger then normal, was not all that large, so I did not expound upon the idea, and figured it would just be a nice "Visual Boon" but not important in reality, but it might be more trouble and annoyance then it would be worth.

I would tenatively suggest that becoming divine is not an all in one thing but perhaps a quest series in and of itself that after each quest the PC gained one step (one quality) of quasi-divinity.

This too is a great idea. When I was first pondering this, the idea we sought to think of, was "Titanic Levels" and no longer would need to worry about such things as typical player character levels. Titans Levels would be Focused on the Elemental Planes, (Earth/Air/Fire/Water/Positive/Negative/Law/Chaos) and that the players would start with their new bodies and be more like "eladrin" and as they leveled up, they would become full fledged Titans in their own right.

This came more about, as we looked at the way they worked in the perma-effects of the Sorcerer lines, and that a player might start out looking nromal-ish and if they took "Earth" Titan Levels they could end up looking like this:



or perhaps if they took Water as Titan Levels



Variants could be made, to include things like Radiant Titans, ore Ash Titans.

But as we talked about it, and thought it over, it sounded really awesome and wonderful, we just could not see how realistic it would be to implement such an idea, so I kinda of left it alone for my original proposal, and figured, maybe something alone those lines could be added in for levels 26 - 30 or a later expansion, for something new to shoot for. and a means to grow. This allowing levels 21- 25 to be a stepping stone into what might be a whole new dimension (Pun not intended but works non the less)

I would also be against locking in particular changes that would cosmetically affect all characters the same. That is "everyone" having golden eyes or golden halo etc. I would very much prefer options even a small choice such as gold or silver or crystal or opal eyes and maybe the halo reflecting one's choice of alignment such that LG is gold, NG is silver, CG is opal, N is grey, LN white, CN anarchic etc. No one goes to so much effort playing and sculpting their character to enjoy having them shuffled into some kind of uniform sameness.

I love this idea! I could so get behind more options and variables. Sign me up for that!

[Ungood]

But your suggestion will never happened as is because they need to raise the level of the game so that most players including the more casual ones stay and can be part of it.
So it can't be aimed at/reserved to a tiny frange of the community that finds elite TOD a walk in the cake.

While I will not disagree with you on this, as eventually casual players will earn enough gear and skill to be able to venture into this content arena, is it something that would be proposed to the current stock of players that need more then they have at this time.

Ergo, it is going to be made with the premise that the people rushing to it at the onset will be the ones that have done ToD so many times they are bored of it, and they are seeking, thirsting for a new and devastating challenge, to breath new life into them. Many of which may have already moved on to other games, to placate their need for challenge, but still seek to return if something is presented to them. something that they can sink their teeth into.

Or such might be just my feelings on the matter.

The ROI wouldn't be worth it to them.

I do not think anyone is in any place to make that call, as by taking a risky move of making a dying game free to play, they have infused new life and much more money into it. So, who knows if the Return of Investment would be worth it or not.

I believe that there are enough established vets in this game as it is, that they would gladly shell out the TP (or perhaps revisit their ViP Sub) to purchase/play this expansion pack and any additional quests/packs added to it. Which would be a vitalization of funds as well as a new buzz of older vets players 'playing' again, as they learn about and explore a whole new world open to them, opposed to just grinding.

But, this is just my humble opinion on the matter.

[IBCROOTBEER]

Not really interested in higher level caps ... thats kind of what threw me off from EQ and WoW eventually ... but as DDO already raised cap before I started playing, it will probably happen again and I will probably again find a new game to play ... but until then, I'm enjoying the game as it is

[Ungood]

Not really interested in higher level caps ... thats kind of what threw me off from EQ and WoW eventually ... but as DDO already raised cap before I started playing, it will probably happen again and I will probably again find a new game to play ... but until then, I'm enjoying the game as it is

I can fully respect this view too, which is why I proposed this option. No one should be obligated to have to level up if they do not want to. And with this plan, it is an optional thing. You can remain at 20th if you like, and enjoy the Mortal realm, or you can opt to move on to Planes if that is more your fancy. Or just TR if you feel the urge.

Unlike other games that just raise the cap and thus everyone now has several levels they need to gain and painfully grind up, with this option, at 20th you have choices.

Just saying.

[Ungood]

My gradual reaction as I read this post

"What"
"This is kind of dumb"
"I don't think this would work"
"Actually that's kind of cool if done right, i guess"
"Well, that could be fun"
"Holy hell this is actually awesome"
"PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN"

This was win! I laughed!

[Aelonwy]

You might have to scrap the size difference idea. Because the designers didn't craft the dungeons (even epic) with that in mind it might make some epic dungeons impossible to navigate. I remember someone complaining that their multi-TR'd warforged couldn't navigate one of the new Reign of Madness quests because his character was too tall for some of the rooms/doors in the dungeon. It's only anecdotal but if the devs can't be depended upon to make dungeons accessible for the sizes of characters we have now... well expecting them to re-engineer older epic dungeons for future larger characters might be abit too much.

I don't think the alternative of not allowing these quasi-divine charcters to play around in the older content at all is a satisfactory option so logically the size increase would have to be nixed. As to the elemental characteristics... I'm going to have to give that some thought...

[Ungood]

You might have to scrap the size difference idea. Because the designers didn't craft the dungeons (even epic) with that in mind it might make some epic dungeons impossible to navigate. I remember someone complaining that their multi-TR'd warforged couldn't navigate one of the new Reign of Madness quests because his character was too tall for some of the rooms/doors in the dungeon. It's only anecdotal but if the devs can't be depended upon to make dungeons accessible for the sizes of characters we have now... well expecting them to re-engineer older epic dungeons for future larger characters might be abit too much.

If it would be an impediment to the game fun, then it is not well served. It is just a cosmetic suggestion anyway. Maybe some new kind of "Wings" around their name then, and call it day

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Haven't read it all yet, but I have long thought that we need the lvl 21+ content way before we consider letting players advance to lvl 21+.
And lots of it!

We already have the problem of lack of lvl 20 content.

We need lots and lots of it. Maybe stuff even so dangerous that it is impossible to complete at our existing lvl.


Also, when we do have lvl 21+ chars running around, I do not want them in my Shroud runs! they have no business there!

Epic characters should not crave petty baubles like Green Steel! They should be moving on to bigger and better things.

But a lvl 18 Character who has a lvl 21 friend should certainly be allowed to group together. They are within the lvl range to still gain XP and not be power lvled.


Anyway...sry if this is a derail....just what I read of your post made me think about this stuff and I wanted to share.

[Ungood]

Haven't read it all yet, but I have long thought that we need the lvl 21+ content way before we consider letting players advance to lvl 21+.
And lots of it!

We already have the problem of lack of lvl 20 content.

We need lots and lots of it. Maybe stuff even so dangerous that it is impossible to complete at our existing lvl.


Also, when we do have lvl 21+ chars running around, I do not want them in my Shroud runs! they have no business there!

Epic characters should not crave petty baubles like Green Steel! They should be moving on to bigger and better things.

But a lvl 18 Character who has a lvl 21 friend should certainly be allowed to group together. They are within the lvl range to still gain XP and not be power lvled.


Anyway...sry if this is a derail....just what I read of your post made me think about this stuff and I wanted to share.

Actually the way this method would work. is that Mortal Characters, IE: Guild mates, and maybe friends, could Run Epics with Demi-God Characters.

That way, some content could be shared, and friends could still run and quest together. But only Epic Content.

[lilleengen2]

Seems like your prayers have been heard.

[Impaqt]

My gradual reaction as I read this post

"What"
"This is kind of dumb"
"I don't think this would work"
"Actually that's kind of cool if done right, i guess"
"Well, that could be fun"
"Holy hell this is actually awesome"
"PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN"

My reaction...

"What"?
"Have you read any of the articles or posts on the expansion yet?"
"wow this is long"
"I wonder if its snowing outside yet"

.
.
.
.

[Ungood]

Seems like your prayers have been heard.

I know right! Excited!

My reaction...

"Have you read any of the articles or posts on the expansion yet?"

My Reaction: Did you look at the date of the post you quoted?

[Impaqt]

I know right! Excited!



My Reaction: Did you look at the date of the post you quoted?

No, there should be a warning when a thread gets necro'd

[Ungood]

No, there should be a warning when a thread gets necro'd

There you go