I want to make a TWF Barbarian. Need ideas (race / feats / skills)

[whitehawk74]

I want to make a TWF Barbarian but I am unsure as to the race I should pick.

I have a THF Fighter (Half Orc) and a TWF Ranger Tempest (with 2 levs of fighter) Dwarf and I was thinking of making a pure Barbarian.

Now I know that I have more fun with TWF than two-handed guys so I want to make a good Barbarian that I can enjoy.
I have 32 point builds and I just pulled a +2 Tome of STR from the Shroud today, so that could be used on him or her.

Ideas please on Race and Feats / Skill. I am thinking Dwarf, but I am very open to suggestion.
Thanks in advance

[Alkindus]

I speak from a purely damage perspective, but here are my suggestions.
18 barb/2 ftr will give you a lot more dps. Since the capstone gives you very little benefit whereas 15% haste boost is much more appealing, plus the feats will be of big help.
Half orc would obviously be the most damage.
Feats I'd recommend in no particular order:
Twf,itwf,gtwf,cleave,pa,toughness,IC: Slash, khopesh prof, quickdraw.
for skills that tends to vary for me. I'd say max balance,umd,some jump?
It's your game obviously, i'm not trying to tell you how to play it, but 18/2 seems to be the way to go. Shoot me a pm if you have any other questions.

[whitehawk74]

Okay, I will punch that into the Character Generator and see what happens. I dont have a Human character yet. I will have a look at that.
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.2
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Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.2
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BarbFighter 
Level 4 Neutral Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 80
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 4\4
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 2
Will: -1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 4)
Strength             16                    16
Dexterity            15                    15
Constitution         17                    18
Intelligence          9                     9
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 4)
Balance               4                     5.5
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     2
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  7                     9
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  1                     2
Swim                  3                     3
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave

But is there any benefit from going Fighter as the first class? Not sure if I get more skill points.

[Alkindus]

Okay, I will punch that into the Character Generator and see what happens. I dont have a Human character yet. I will have a look at that.
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But is there any benefit from going Fighter as the first class? Not sure if I get more skill points.

Well I was actually suggesting a half orc race.
A barb starts out with 4 skill points, whereas a fighter has 2-3. I always go first level as barb, then in the next level or so go fighter Just to maximize the skill points you recieve.

For stats I'd just go 20 str, 15 dex, put the rest into con.
Feat progression is more up to you as to what you like, my suggestion is:
1: toughness
2(fighter): twf
3: power attack
6: cleave
9: khopesh prof
12:itwf
15: gtwf
18:ic:slash
20(fighter): quickdraw

I could be wrong on some of those feats in terms of when you could take them. The requirement for feats is something I constantly have to look up :\

Also, at lower levels you're better off swinging a two handed weapon, so not having khopesh prof until 9 won't hurt ya.

[Therigar]

For stats I'd just go 20 str, 15 dex, put the rest into con.

This is extremely inefficient for only a modest increase in damage. On a 32 point build this stat arrangement is 20 STR 15 DEX 15 CON.

Going 18 STR allows for 16 DEX 16 CON and still leaves 2 build points to invest in INT for additional skill points.

While I expect most people will opt for the 20 STR it isn't necessarily the best choice. This could be even more obvious once tomes, gear and enhancements are worked into the build.

[Alkindus]

This is extremely inefficient for only a modest increase in damage. On a 32 point build this stat arrangement is 20 STR 15 DEX 15 CON.

Going 18 STR allows for 16 DEX 16 CON and still leaves 2 build points to invest in INT for additional skill points.

While I expect most people will opt for the 20 STR it isn't necessarily the best choice. This could be even more obvious once tomes, gear and enhancements are worked into the build.

Right, what's 16 dex do again? +1 reflex? pretty useless on a barb... and 16 con..possibly 20 more hp on a toon that already reaches over 800 with ease. Regarding the int, why would anyone need more than3-4 skill points per level on a barb which needs just a few skills. I'll take my +1 to hit and damage.

[eulogy098]

My TWF Barb is a pure Dwarf, using Dwarven Waraxes \/

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
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Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(20 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 430
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 9
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    28
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         18                    25
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               12                    14
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    13
Bluff                -2                    -1
Concentration         4                     7
Diplomacy            -2                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            2                    24
Jump                  4                    10
Listen                1                     2
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     2
Spot                  2                    13
Swim                  4                     9
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      0                    10

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury


Level 4 (Barbarian)


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Barbarian)


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Barbarian)


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidation
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Barbarian Might
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III

(32 point build with no +3 tome, try 18 STR, 15 Dex, 16 Con, 8 int, 10 wis, 6 cha and take Toughness or Stunning Blow instead of Past-life)

Dwarves have a lot of benefits for a TWF Barb first being that they get an exotic for free, saving you a feat and allowing you to be free from splashing. If you don't have the barb past life, and dont need to blow a feat on an exotic, there's no real reason to not stay pure. Dwarves have this benefit. Dwarven Waraxes rock for a frenzy 3. Waraxes crit only in 19-20 (with imp crit) and that is the exact range for Frenzy3 3x multi bonus, so unlike khopesh, all of your crits will be those beautiful, huge 6x damage hits.

Next is the con bonus, means longer rage and more of what you need -hp. Being a dwarf over a human gives you a respectable easy-to-get 16 starting con without any STR sacrifice.

With a dex boosted TWF build (mandatory 15 starting, and a +2 tome) your reflex save will be even higher, and that stacks wonderfully with Dwarven Spell resists (up to +FIVE saves versus spells.... freggin awesome)

I highly, highly recommend Dwarf for a TWF barbarian.


((((True neutral is the way to go on any class that is allowed it. Take less damage on mobs such as Demon Queen. UMD for good weapons))))
(((umd is just for cross-alignment weapons, no scrolls on barbs. cant use em while raged)))
((spot is cross-class but even at half ranks is superior to listen))

[Alex301]

Dwarves have a lot of benefits for a TWF Barb first being that they get an exotic for free, saving you a feat and allowing you to be free from splashing. If you don't have the barb past life, and dont need to blow a feat on an exotic, there's no real reason to not stay pure. Dwarves have this benefit. Dwarven Waraxes rock for a frenzy 3. Waraxes crit only in 19-20 (with imp crit) and that is the exact range for Frenzy3 3x multi bonus, so unlike khopesh, all of your crits will be those beautiful, huge 6x damage hits.

Next is the con bonus, means longer rage and more of what you need -hp. Being a dwarf over a human gives you a respectable easy-to-get 16 starting con without any STR sacrifice.

Not having to spend a feat on a weapon proficiency is nice but khopeshes are better dps. A half orc with scimitars is better dps too and you don't have to spend a proficiency feat on them either. I would argue a 15% haste boost along with 2 extra feats from fighter levels is more useful and better dps than 4 extra str given by going pure, especially on a TWF. I also fail to see the usefulness of every crit being x6; a khopesh will score x6 crits just as often but they'll deal x3 crits 10% of the time dwarven axes would do normal damage.

With a decent con score, your rages will last more than long enough anyway, although rages in the early levels will be noticeably shorter on a human compared to a dwarf. At endgame though, i think the advantages of slightly longer rages will be negligible.

[eulogy098]

Not having to spend a feat on a weapon proficiency is nice but khopeshes are better dps. A half orc with scimitars is better dps too and you don't have to spend a proficiency feat on them either. I would argue a 15% haste boost along with 2 extra feats from fighter levels is more useful and better dps than 4 extra str given by going pure, especially on a TWF. I also fail to see the usefulness of every crit being x6; a khopesh will score x6 crits just as often but they'll deal x3 crits 10% of the time dwarven axes would do normal damage.

With a decent con score, your rages will last more than long enough anyway, although rages in the early levels will be noticeably shorter on a human compared to a dwarf. At endgame though, i think the advantages of slightly longer rages will be negligible.

The higher the targets fort , the closer Dwarven Axes get to khopesh until 100% for where as the dwarf with dwarven axes is superior. Many important targets have some fort too. Dwarven axes have much nicer base damage, with another +2 on top for dwarves (1d10+5 vs 2d8+7) Dwarven axes are good, **** good, and as a Dwarf you dont have to lose a feat on em'. Huge benefit.

There's no doubt that a half orc will be more dps then a dwarf in any circumstance, but if your playing a non-orc barb its because you wanted some survival, this is what Dwarfs are the king of currently (+4 con, +5 saves and a handfull of other worth-while bonuses such as balance).

Without having the past life feat(and thus debatably needing more feats), i dont see fighter splash to be worth while at all. You lose 2 con, 3 strength, the two levels of d12 hp, and gain 2 feats that you dont need and a haste boost clicke that wont stack with your damage-boost. For TWF barb damage boost is much more efficient then it is for THF, it's really not bad at all, in fact- its quite good. Better then haste boost? no. But you are forced to max out the enhancement and you cant use both at the same time, and its not too too far off so.... I don't value haste boost very much at all. Speaking of haste boost as though it were a flat, 100% maintained 15% dps boost is very misleading. It simply isnt so.


Ultimately, for THF I see that Half-orcs in their current form are a no-brainer. They are too good to not be the painfully obvious choice. But for TWF I see dwarves as not very far behind at all, and their slightly less dps starts getting ignorable in the face of their other heavy benefits.

[Kinerd]

The higher the targets fort , the closer Dwarven Axes get to khopesh until 100% for where as the dwarf with dwarven axes is superior. Many important targets have some fort too. Dwarven axes have much nicer base damage, with another +2 on top for dwarves (1d10+5 vs 2d8+7) Dwarven axes are good, **** good, and as a Dwarf you dont have to lose a feat on em'. Huge benefit.

There's no doubt that a half orc will be more dps then a dwarf in any circumstance, but if your playing a non-orc barb its because you wanted some survival, this is what Dwarfs are the king of currently (+4 con, +5 saves and a handfull of other worth-while bonuses such as balance).

Without having the past life feat(and thus debatably needing more feats), i dont see fighter splash to be worth while at all. You lose 2 con, 3 strength, the two levels of d12 hp, and gain 2 feats that you dont need and a haste boost clicke that wont stack with your damage-boost. For TWF barb damage boost is much more efficient then it is for THF, it's really not bad at all, in fact- its quite good. Better then haste boost? no. But you are forced to max out the enhancement and you cant use both at the same time, and its not too too far off so.... I don't value haste boost very much at all. Speaking of haste boost as though it were a flat, 100% maintained 15% dps boost is very misleading. It simply isnt so.


Ultimately, for THF I see that Half-orcs in their current form are a no-brainer. They are too good to not be the painfully obvious choice. But for TWF I see dwarves as not very far behind at all, and their slightly less dps starts getting ignorable in the face of their other heavy benefits.

The thing is, Damage Boost is a net DPS loss if you have high enough DPS. Haste Boost is always, always a net DPS gain. If you can hit them both at once, all the better, but if (like you and I, apparently) you can only hit one at a time, the answer is always Haste Boost.

I splashed fighter on my THF barb because I really wanted Stunning Blow and really didn't want to give up any of the other traditional feats. It's a sub-optimal choice for raw DPS (so I disagree with Alex301 on that point), but it's a heck of a lot closer for TWF builds. A TWF dwarf 18/2 barb/rogue with the enhancements would be nasty effective - useful evasion (traded for feat flexibility), more bang for the buck than THF in Haste Boost and losing capstone, what's not to love?

[unbongwah]

HOs are the obvious choice for any barb (THF or TWF) if all you care about is DPS. But pretty much any race can work - heck, go halfling for the lulz.

For TWF barbs I like the barb 18 / ftr 2 combo for extra feats, Haste Boost, and +1 STR enh (though it's still a net loss of -3 STR at lvl 20). Alkindus has the right idea, though I would take Stunning Blow instead of Quick Draw.

[Kinerd]

You could go half-elf rogue dilettante. There are enough absent-minded bosses that it would be a pretty good DPS boost, plus you wouldn't need to waste AP on sneak attack to-hit as on a halfling.

[Therigar]

If you accept the thesis that more STR = more DPS then you only have 3 choices: half-orc, half-elf and human.

Current game maximum STR is:

Half-orc -- 20 + 5 (levels) + 2 (racial enhancement) + 7 (item) + 3 (exceptional) + 4 (tome) = 41. Splashing 2 fighter adds 1 (class enhancement) for max 42.

Human/half-elf -- 18 + 5 (levels) + 1 (racial enhancement) + 7 (item) + 3 (exceptional) + 4 (tome) = 38. Splashing 2 fighter makes no difference*.

On the surface half-orc is then the best race choice. (Note that all other STR boosts, such as rages or external buff effects will be the same for all 3 race choices so do not need to be shown.)

However, half-elf has the dilettante feat that can change things and should be considered. Because TWF requires DEX it will be easy to qualify for the rogue dilly. And that will add more damage when the character does not have aggro. The total loss is 1 point damage per hit, 3 per critical assuming khopesh and overall much smaller damage than the 3d6 SA damage that occurs if your barb does not have aggro.

IMO that makes half-elf the better race choice in and of itself. But, there are also other reasons to choose half-elf that relate to being able to use human enhancements. For example, human improved recovery increases healing effects by 20%. If you were to qualify for the monk dilly you could grab another 20% there as well (although you'd give up the SA benefit).

To me the ability to choose dilettante and use human enhancements makes half-elf the best overall race choice.

*Edit: Note half-elf could splash 2 fighter to get to 40 and instead take the 2 elf racial DEX enhancments. Might be worth doing that way if a player was trying to do everything and somehow get the AA PrE along with all other things. Leaves the character short on feats and enhancements but possible as a flavor build.

Edit to correct math and SA mistakes. Thank you Alex.

[Alex301]

Human/half-elf -- 18 + 5 (levels) + 1 (racial enhancement) + 7 (item) + 3 (exceptional) + 4 (tome) = 40. Splashing 2 fighter makes no difference*.

18+5+1+7+3+4= 38 not 40 Half orcs also receive +2 to their rages and have power attack enhancements. Half elf SA damage is only 3d6 too. That said, add in human versatility enhancements and half elves are very competitive, probably higher DPS in ideal conditions.

It's a sub-optimal choice for raw DPS (so I disagree with Alex301 on that point), but it's a heck of a lot closer for TWF builds.

I can't see how pure barbarian is better dps for TWF. The only thing going pure offers for TWF is 4 higher str. Fighter levels give you haste boost and extra feats, allowing you to pick up quickdraw and the barbarian pastlife/ khopesh proficiency.

Without having the past life feat(and thus debatably needing more feats), i dont see fighter splash to be worth while at all. You lose 2 con, 3 strength, the two levels of d12 hp, and gain 2 feats that you dont need and a haste boost clicke that wont stack with your damage-boost. For TWF barb damage boost is much more efficient then it is for THF, it's really not bad at all, in fact- its quite good. Better then haste boost? no. But you are forced to max out the enhancement and you cant use both at the same time, and its not too too far off so.... I don't value haste boost very much at all.

Damage boost offers a static increase to your damage. It will momentarily reduce your dps to 0 as you wait around for it to activate. With a high dps output the loss from activating it will increase until you come to the point where the damage boost sacrifices more damage than it returns. Haste boost is dependent on your dps and therefore always offer a net gain of damage.

Its sad to lose those 2 levels of d12 hp, but i guess i'll just have to live with a fighters lowly d10 hp Those extra feats can also be used to pick up toughness and unlock the toughness enhancements, potentially giving you much more health. Feats like a past life, stunning blow and quick draw could also be picked up to increase your dps in certain situations.

[Kinerd]

I can't see how pure barbarian is better dps for TWF. The only thing going pure offers for TWF is 4 higher str. Fighter levels give you haste boost and extra feats, allowing you to pick up quickdraw and the barbarian pastlife/ khopesh proficiency.

Yeah, not sure what I was thinking, the splash is clearly better for TWF DPS.

[dingal]

Don't do it.Go THF and use Supreme Cleave. Apparently you'll win DDO.

[zebidos]

Ive had alot of fun with the beow build but took THF instead of TWF and a few toughness feats ignoring the improved and greater two handed fighting.

This build is probably the best I have ever used to solo to 20. except raids of course

Race: Halfling

18 Barb / 2 rogue

Starting stats:

16 str
14 dex
16 Con
10 intel
8 wis
8 char

All level ups into str, first two levels take rogue.

Skills: UMD UMD UMD and UMD and open lock

When choosing your feats take as many rages as you can, how I play mine is to have alot of short term rages, dismissing them as required to scroll heal yourself then rerage.

+2 tome in dex, con and str, also take 1 halfling dex and 1 rogue dex

For a TWF take khopesh or whatever and improved and greater, cleave (for frenzied) and improved crit whatever. then toughness, toughness as much as you can get.

The evasion and saves is very usefull for damage mitigation considering you will not have any armor class.

[whitehawk74]

Thanks for all your replies.
I have Vet status so I will run a few builds. I'm not purely interested in max DPS (although it would make a change). I am trying to make a fun character that I will enjoy running, so I guess I will keep whatever feels right. I'll make one that has 2 levels of fighter and a pure Dwarf Barb. I have a Half-Orc THF fighter and I do find him to be a bit boring.

The mention of the Half-Elf was interesting. I forget about the bonus extra human abilities. Time to recheck my Helf Cleric (she has the Fighter side class and she rocks)

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[Crann]

One thing to keep in mind with Human/Half Elf options is that Human Versatility is on a separate timer than Haste Boost and other boosts.

Being able to click on you Human damage boost as you reach a target, and then your haste boost if you use the /2f route is a nice amount of burst damage.

The SA from the Rogue dilly is pretty nice, but you aren't going to be ignored for too long by much.

[Yalina]

It's always your playing time, so you surely wanna enjoy the quests with your TWF barbarian, but it needs to be effective as well (of course player skills and experiments can compensate a lot). My experiments with TWF barbarian is so-so, he is good dps, but not as good as I would like to, however I had the chance to build him from 36 points, so I went the evasion way, and mixed the barbarian levels with 2 rogue levels. He has problem with hitting enemies, he misses on a roll of 2 and 3 sometimes, and 5 and below on Malicia (with greater heroism on), so I have to make some nice epic items for him. Versus spells he is ok, usually only fails on a natural 1, so the evasion is kinda cool. And my guildmates always laugh on me when I disable traps in epic quests.