Crafting metal

[Tsuarok]

Ok. So I believe that the use of a special metal in crafting should incur a cost, to avoid easy access to superior weapons. I have a few suggestions:

1. Disjunction removes metal type.

2. Metal type can be added when crafting, but increases the potential required (though not the ML) (if you're bothered by the idea of adding/removing the metal, think of it as metal threaded like handwraps, and remember, the machine is magical)

3. The materials required to add metal types to weapons must come from metal items of the appropriate type. I.E must deconstruct several silver items to get "silver essences" to add silver to your weapon.

[dkyle]

Biggest concern I have: unless you tune the costs on a per weapon basis, this would mean that crafting, say, a Silver Battleaxe is just as expensive as a Silver Khopesh. Currently, supply and demand ensures that the Khopesh costs more. And I rather like having some weapons we pull from chests (other than extremely rare, as good as crafted already weapons) actually be valuable for something besides essences.

What I'd suggest is:

* Metals are not removed, as currently. However, the weapon comes with 3 potential already used up, but not applied to ML.

* Furthermore, when applying prefix/suffix shards to the item, require a stack of three instead of the usual one. Potential shards wouldn't require a triple stack, since the extra cost is already reflected in the pre-used potential.

The exact numbers are rather arbitrary, and it might make sense to change them according to the actual material. So Silver > Cold Iron > Adamantine > Flametouched, for example.

This way, [metal] blanks are still valuable, but [metal] weapons still cost more.

[Tsuarok]

I do understand that one wants to get excited about random loot, and thus have some be better than others. But silver is still rare enough that one could get excited about it. And requiring multiple silver essences would further increase demand for the weapons, albeit of all shapes.

One other thing that my suggestion addresses is the severe disadvantage handwraps have in this (and other) crafting system.

I do really like the idea of an increased cost to the addition of other shards though. That would ensure that the more powerful the item the more the cost, which I do like as it charges for synergy, something that can be very unbalancing and isn't currently acounted for well.

Edit: a GS khopesh costs the same as GS battleaxe, so I don't see to much problem with this...

[dkyle]

I do understand that one wants to get excited about random loot, and thus have some be better than others. But silver is still rare enough that one could get excited about it. And requiring multiple silver essences would further increase demand for the weapons, albeit of all shapes.

Silver anything is boring. It just makes it another prefix or suffix to deconstruct. A silver weapon I'll actually craft on, or sell to someone for them to craft on is more exciting.

A weapon with some useful synergy to it will pretty much always be more exciting than a weapon with a single thing I can extract.

And again, if you want your system to fairly price as many items as possible, a Light Hammer should clearly cost less than a Khopesh. How would you do that using silver essences? Just specify an arbitrary number required for each? Why not let supply and demand handle it?

One other thing that my suggestion addresses is the severe disadvantage handwraps have in this (and other) crafting system.

Yes, but that should be fixed by putting silver wraps in the loot tables along side every other silver weapon.

Also, silver wraps should be dropping quite significantly in price; the drop rate appears to have gone way up, and they now drop on the more-played Elite and Epic difficulties.

[dragons1ayer74]

Silver is one of the last things that we can get excited about actually pulling from a random looted chest.

I think the idea has potential but it would need to be done with extreme care as to not unbalance it. I would say something like you would need some crafting skill, some rare ingredients (ie: new Purified Dragonshards) and a certain number of silver essences (say 10 and you get 1 silver essence by deconstructing 1 silver item) to be able to craft a silver blank craftable weapon.

[Desonde]

Biggest concern I have: unless you tune the costs on a per weapon basis, this would mean that crafting, say, a Silver Battleaxe is just as expensive as a Silver Khopesh. Currently, supply and demand ensures that the Khopesh costs more. And I rather like having some weapons we pull from chests (other than extremely rare, as good as crafted already weapons) actually be valuable for something besides essences.

What I'd suggest is:

* Metals are not removed, as currently. However, the weapon comes with 3 potential already used up, but not applied to ML.

* Furthermore, when applying prefix/suffix shards to the item, require a stack of three instead of the usual one. Potential shards wouldn't require a triple stack, since the extra cost is already reflected in the pre-used potential.

The exact numbers are rather arbitrary, and it might make sense to change them according to the actual material. So Silver > Cold Iron > Adamantine > Flametouched, for example.

This way, [metal] blanks are still valuable, but [metal] weapons still cost more.

Fix the cost of the shards and I think this is a great idea.

[Tsuarok]

Silver is one of the last things that we can get excited about actually pulling from a random looted chest.

I think the idea has potential but it would need to be done with extreme care as to not unbalance it. I would say something like you would need some crafting skill, some rare ingredients (ie: new Purified Dragonshards) and a certain number of silver essences (say 10 and you get 1 silver essence by deconstructing 1 silver item) to be able to craft a silver blank craftable weapon.

I agree that it should be costly. Though even if it weren't, it would be costlier than it is now, as now you just buy or find a single silver weapon and easily enchant it. There is no crafting cost at all.

@dkyle

I see that some silver weapons are more valuable than others. Whether that is a positive thing or not... I'm not so sure. I can't think of a reason for it.

Obviously someone might actually use your silver khopesh as is, not as a mat, so that might raise the price slightly.

But really, I see crafting as a way to eliminate the uselessness of the vast majority of random drops. The ability to fully customize your gear is the big draw of this open crafting system, and I think metal crafting would be a positive change, all in all. If the costs were set appropriately, it would still reduce the # of superior dr breakers on the market by requiring more than one silver item per finished weapon. Perhaps in the 10-20 range, idk.

The fact is that your rapier of puncturing is worth the same in essences as your dagger of puncturing. I saw this as a good change.

But again, the extra shard cost on metal weapons is great, and could work well whether metal was craftable or not.

[Ravoc-DDO]

/not signed

The base material property is a static property on blank craftables and should not be addable, nor use up potentials. You don't craft metal, you craft on metal... If you want to add metallic porperties, there's metalline for that.

[Tsuarok]

/not signed

The base material property is a static property on blank craftables and should not be addable, nor use up potentials. You don't craft metal, you craft on metal... If you want to add metallic porperties, there's metalline for that.

It's not so much that I want to craft metal properties as I want to increase the cost of crafting weapons with metal properties. Silver weapons are neither expensive nor rare on the AH. I'm not asking for easier access to these items, I'm asking for it to be costlier to craft weapons with excellent synergy. The way it is is too cheap.

As far as you not crafting metal... that is true. And wouldn't be true if we did. I don't really see your point.

[waterboytkd]

It's not so much that I want to craft metal properties as I want to increase the cost of crafting weapons with metal properties. Silver weapons are neither expensive nor rare on the AH. I'm not asking for easier access to these items, I'm asking for it to be costlier to craft weapons with excellent synergy. The way it is is too cheap.

As far as you not crafting metal... that is true. And wouldn't be true if we did. I don't really see your point.

The only thing is: they're not that cheap on the AH. It definitely depends on what type of weapon you're buying. Silver daggers? Sure, cheap as dirt. Silver khopeshes? You're probably paying 6 figures for that, certainly no less than 5. The fact is, certain weapon types are in high demand, certain ones aren't. If you're trying to make custom beater khopeshes, the silver is already gonna cost you. Silver shortswords? Not so much.

By making it so that we lose metal types on weapons, and have to craft it back, you would destroy any market for metal weapons, and there would literally just be vendor trash/decon trash. And that rare random drop that just happens to have the right combination of abilities on it. Also, it would probably get cheaper for certain silver weapons, like khopeshes, unless it required ridiculous amounts of "silver essences", in which case you would drain all special material weapons out of the market, as no one would sell them, because they would all get deconned.

Also keep in mind that special materials don't make great universal beaters, and not even great trash beaters. Just great boss beaters. Do you really need to drive the price of holy silver banes and holy cold iron banes, just because they're great against harry/horoth/dq? They're not overly powerful outside of those boss fights.

[Tsuarok]

The only thing is: they're not that cheap on the AH. It definitely depends on what type of weapon you're buying. Silver daggers? Sure, cheap as dirt. Silver khopeshes? You're probably paying 6 figures for that, certainly no less than 5. The fact is, certain weapon types are in high demand, certain ones aren't. If you're trying to make custom beater khopeshes, the silver is already gonna cost you. Silver shortswords? Not so much.

I can't speak for all servers, but on Orion, silver khopeshes average 200k. Crafted, they replace MinII weapons. Buying the mats to make a MinII, from scratch (obviously not including shards) will cost, again on Orion, around 10 times this number. So, yeah, I think it's cheap.

By making it so that we lose metal types on weapons, and have to craft it back, you would destroy any market for metal weapons, and there would literally just be vendor trash/decon trash. And that rare random drop that just happens to have the right combination of abilities on it. Also, it would probably get cheaper for certain silver weapons, like khopeshes, unless it required ridiculous amounts of "silver essences", in which case you would drain all special material weapons out of the market, as no one would sell them, because they would all get deconned.

They were vendor trash before crafting. Now they would be a useful source of mats. I don't see a problem.

Also keep in mind that special materials don't make great universal beaters, and not even great trash beaters. Just great boss beaters. Do you really need to drive the price of holy silver banes and holy cold iron banes, just because they're great against harry/horoth/dq? They're not overly powerful outside of those boss fights.

These are the most important fights in the game. They form the majority of the toughest fights in the game. If the weapon isn't that important, why would people feel the need to craft them?

[Indoran]

/not signed

The base material property is a static property on blank craftables and should not be addable, nor use up potentials. You don't craft metal, you craft on metal... If you want to add metallic porperties, there's metalline for that.

this!

[Jhenissa]

Then its time to greatly increase drop rates on silver handwraps. Dozens and dozens of DA runs on Hard have yielded - nada, nil, nothing, bunk...and many other iterations of FAIL.

Crafting Silver Holy Outsider Bane weapon for any toon I play...easy as 1, 2, & 3
Crafting Silver Holy Outsider Bane handwraps for any of the monks I play...some far off nearly unattainable goal. I suspect I will achieve Completionist on my main before I see any silver handwraps drop.

[R0cksteady]

Then its time to greatly increase drop rates on silver handwraps. Dozens and dozens of DA runs on Hard have yielded - nada, nil, nothing, bunk...and many other iterations of FAIL.

Crafting Silver Holy Outsider Bane weapon for any toon I play...easy as 1, 2, & 3
Crafting Silver Holy Outsider Bane handwraps for any of the monks I play...some far off nearly unattainable goal. I suspect I will achieve Completionist on my main before I see any silver handwraps drop.

They DID greatly increse the droprate of silver weaspons, and silver handwraps aren't that rare since 10.1. I got a pair today, and I've seen 4 of them now drop from Epic DA.

But anti-sign to this topic. DR breakers are really they best thing you can craft without an insane amount of grinding. I grinded to level 40 to make boss beaters and stopped because it was getting costly and boring. And the only thing I can make that I really care about is boss beaters. I did go a bit past 40 after awhile to make some Greater (Spell Schools) focus items, but besides that, without the boss beaters, you almost have to grind to 80 to start making really good items. And not everyone wants to spend THAT much time and resources to do so.
This would take away really the only thing I get out of crafting.

So a BIG anti-sign.

[Tsuarok]

They DID greatly increse the droprate of silver weaspons, and silver handwraps aren't that rare since 10.1. I got a pair today, and I've seen 4 of them now drop from Epic DA.

But anti-sign to this topic. DR breakers are really they best thing you can craft without an insane amount of grinding. I grinded to level 40 to make boss beaters and stopped because it was getting costly and boring. And the only thing I can make that I really care about is boss beaters. I did go a bit past 40 after awhile to make some Greater (Spell Schools) focus items, but besides that, without the boss beaters, you almost have to grind to 80 to start making really good items. And not everyone wants to spend THAT much time and resources to do so.
This would take away really the only thing I get out of crafting.

So a BIG anti-sign.

How much time did it take you to make some of the best dr breakers in the game? At CL40, your's should be beating a minII easily.

And just out of curiosity, where does it say that you couldn't craft them? I just want the metal type to be accounted for in crafting costs. It should be expensive to craft on a per item basis. Because they are the best dr breakers in the game (baring perhaps ESoS/EChaosblades with appropriate dr crystal).