droping extend for insightful reflexes?

[xtchizobr]

actually, if you go pale master you are more likely to want extend, because it works on your auras. it's still more of a convenience than anything, but it does also give you a visible reminder if you use clickies instead of potency or other always-on abilities (the duration of your aura is just under 3 minutes at level 20 when extended)

that said, you don't strictly speaking need toughness for pale master. you need it for lich form.

if you were willing to be satisfied with wraith form, you could ditch toughness.

that said, i doubt you'll really need insightful reflexes. it's a nice feat to have, but you don't really *need* it.

... i can't believe what i'm reading....

no. no. you cannot drop the Toughness feat. period.

it's not just the 20 hp from the feat itself, it's the 30+ hp from enhancements as well. we're talking about roughly 30% of your total potential HP right there. that's not negotiable. you simply cannot have a viable, let alone competitive, wizard without Toughness.

Heighten- Never cared for this, too much MP/benefit make this cost prohibitive for the wizard (for sorc and their gobs of SP its a different story). As a Wiz you need to manage very carefully your precious SP, this will kill it faster than anything.

... except that you're completely wrong. with the enhancements and capstone, Heighten only costs 2SP per level, i believe... which means your Web will cost much less than Mass Hold while still having the same DC... Web is a vastly superior CC spell, imo, since it's persistent and requires a Reflex instead of Will which allows it to work against enemy spellcasters (there are way more tools to deal with melee mobs which don't allow a save or anything else. namely, Displacement, though simply moving often works). and if you do need a Will save, then Heighten Hypnosis or Deep Slumber instead and enjoy your 20 saved SP...

having your CC stick every time the first time instead of needing to spam your sometimes-long-cooldown CC repeatedly? priceless. Heighten is another one of those absolutely not negotiable feats, most especially on a wizard. you need to be ashamed of yourself, but after you close your mouth.

[Raithe]

Heighten is absolutely mandatory if you want the slightest chance to land anything past lvl 16; maximize and empower are again absolutely mandatory if you plan on dealing damage.

Heighten is useful for AoE crowd control (web, otto's sphere, mind fog) at about level 15 onwards. Before that it's likely to be better to simply cast 2 low level spells in quick succession as it will actually be more likely to affect more mobs over a larger area. Extensive use of web or maybe hypnotic sphere would be an exception to this generalization.

If someone is planning on not using web or other AoE crowd control extensively, heighten is easily droppable. Wail is *already* heightened; enervation, otto's irresistable dance, and power word kill have no saves; finger of death is single target and is only at a -2 DC advantage; DPS spells with reflex saves are fairly low in cost compared to the metamagic costs.

MT and IMT are quite useless as sources of SP as their total is very low compared to a standard end game amount of 2k (which is very low for an archmage, you can push past it w/o much effort).

This I completely agree with. If these are not prerequisites for something, I'd ditch them in a heartbeat.

[Faent]

My Archmage dropped both Extend and Toughness. No problems so far. And it permitted picking up Insightful Reflexes and more Past Life feats. When I run with groups, I try to make sure the player carrying Extend is covering the Hastes and Rages. And I use Displacement only before important fights. You don't need to keep that up all the time. Drop Extend. And once you get into all the appropriate HP items, drop Toughness as well.

Edit: Melees can cover their own Hastes, when needed, with either potions or Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing. They don't need to be babysat with your Extended Haste. They can also cover their own Rages, when needed, with clickies. And so they don't need to be babysat with your Extended Rage. It's nice, to be sure, but if you try to keep your gimped Haste/Rage up when you can, and let them handle the rest with their potions and clickies, they'll be just fine unless they're gimped.

[Failedlegend]

I'd say go with the following

Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower

Than go Palemaster.

Personally I'd drop Spell Penx2 for Sheild Prof and Mastery but the above is more standard and works far better as a TRed Wiz.

[krogyy]

thx for the advices, now i feel more comfortable dropping extend.

[NoidRoid]

You can absolutely drop toughness on a WF, but prolly not 1st life. Maybe use a feat exchange after getting a lot of gear but it will help the process.

I would never take toughness on a TR'd WF AM, there I said it. First life is a little different though. In fact I'd drop it on my TR'd human PM if it wasn't needed for lich, I'd rather have a spell focus than 617 HP with a +2 CON tome but what are ya gonna do..

[rtayek]

... i can't believe what i'm reading....

no. no. you cannot drop the Toughness feat. period.

it's not just the 20 hp from the feat itself, it's the 30+ hp from enhancements as well. we're talking about roughly 30% of your total potential HP right there. that's not negotiable. you simply cannot have a viable, let alone competitive, wizard without Toughness. ...

if the wizard was a human 32 point build starting at 8,8,18,18,8,8 and not a pale master, could one consider dropping toughness?

thanks

[Faent]

if the wizard was a human 32 point build starting at 8,8,18,18,8,8 and not a pale master, could one consider dropping toughness? thanks

If this is your first life, I don't recommend it, and there's really no need to. A human has less HP potential than a WF, thus the WF can drop Toughness more easily. But eventually, yes, a human could even drop Toughness.

I'd recommend dropping Toughness on most wizards that are in Toughness, GFL, a Shroud +45 HP item and at CON +9 from items.

[rtayek]

If this is your first life, I don't recommend it, and there's really no need to. A human has less HP potential than a WF, thus the WF can drop Toughness more easily. But eventually, yes, a human could even drop Toughness.

I'd recommend dropping Toughness on most wizards that are in Toughness, GFL, a Shroud +45 HP item and at CON +9 from items.

got it.

thanks

[Atenhotep]

I believe Insightful reflexes is a non-negotiable must have feat for any wizard at end game.

[orbbital]

I believe Insightful reflexes is a non-negotiable must have feat for any wizard at end game.

not agree on "non-negotiable"

toughness is viable as more hp could give your life a buffer against other damaging effects which depend on your ac, fort, will. yes it might be very good to take insightful reflex to half the fireballs, firewalls, meteors damages, but more hp is never a wrong thing. so it is just "negotiable", i'm not meaning that we must trash out insightful reflex.