droping extend for insightful reflexes?

[krogyy]

i'm a really melee kind of guy but after the recent changes to the game i felt compelled enough to roll an arcane.

i went for a wf necro/conj archmage (lvl12 atm). i went for conj secondary instead of enchant in order to have a cheap and effective CC option i can use also when OOM. the planned feats are:

2x S.F Necro, 2x Spell Pen, Though, Mental Though, Extend

Bonus Wiz feats:
S.F Conj , Heighten, Maximize, Empower, Quicken

i was considering adding insightful reflexes to the mix to boost my survivability but the issue is what to drop for it.
i would drop thoughness but i want to keep open the option to easily respec to PM.
so i was considering extend, as it is useful only for an handful of spells (haste, rage, displacement and fire shield maybe).
are there serious downsides? any other alternatives?

[Jaid314]

actually, if you go pale master you are more likely to want extend, because it works on your auras. it's still more of a convenience than anything, but it does also give you a visible reminder if you use clickies instead of potency or other always-on abilities (the duration of your aura is just under 3 minutes at level 20 when extended)

that said, you don't strictly speaking need toughness for pale master. you need it for lich form.

if you were willing to be satisfied with wraith form, you could ditch toughness.

that said, i doubt you'll really need insightful reflexes. it's a nice feat to have, but you don't really *need* it.

[xtchizobr]

actually, if you go pale master you are more likely to want extend, because it works on your auras. it's still more of a convenience than anything, but it does also give you a visible reminder if you use clickies instead of potency or other always-on abilities (the duration of your aura is just under 3 minutes at level 20 when extended)

that said, you don't strictly speaking need toughness for pale master. you need it for lich form.

if you were willing to be satisfied with wraith form, you could ditch toughness.

that said, i doubt you'll really need insightful reflexes. it's a nice feat to have, but you don't really *need* it.

... i can't believe what i'm reading....

no. no. you cannot drop the Toughness feat. period.

it's not just the 20 hp from the feat itself, it's the 30+ hp from enhancements as well. we're talking about roughly 30% of your total potential HP right there. that's not negotiable. you simply cannot have a viable, let alone competitive, wizard without Toughness.

Heighten- Never cared for this, too much MP/benefit make this cost prohibitive for the wizard (for sorc and their gobs of SP its a different story). As a Wiz you need to manage very carefully your precious SP, this will kill it faster than anything.

... except that you're completely wrong. with the enhancements and capstone, Heighten only costs 2SP per level, i believe... which means your Web will cost much less than Mass Hold while still having the same DC... Web is a vastly superior CC spell, imo, since it's persistent and requires a Reflex instead of Will which allows it to work against enemy spellcasters (there are way more tools to deal with melee mobs which don't allow a save or anything else. namely, Displacement, though simply moving often works). and if you do need a Will save, then Heighten Hypnosis or Deep Slumber instead and enjoy your 20 saved SP...

having your CC stick every time the first time instead of needing to spam your sometimes-long-cooldown CC repeatedly? priceless. Heighten is another one of those absolutely not negotiable feats, most especially on a wizard. you need to be ashamed of yourself, but after you close your mouth.

[Failedlegend]

I'd say go with the following

Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower

Than go Palemaster.

Personally I'd drop Spell Penx2 for Sheild Prof and Mastery but the above is more standard and works far better as a TRed Wiz.

[krogyy]

thx for the advices, now i feel more comfortable dropping extend.

[NoidRoid]

You can absolutely drop toughness on a WF, but prolly not 1st life. Maybe use a feat exchange after getting a lot of gear but it will help the process.

I would never take toughness on a TR'd WF AM, there I said it. First life is a little different though. In fact I'd drop it on my TR'd human PM if it wasn't needed for lich, I'd rather have a spell focus than 617 HP with a +2 CON tome but what are ya gonna do..

[rtayek]

... i can't believe what i'm reading....

no. no. you cannot drop the Toughness feat. period.

it's not just the 20 hp from the feat itself, it's the 30+ hp from enhancements as well. we're talking about roughly 30% of your total potential HP right there. that's not negotiable. you simply cannot have a viable, let alone competitive, wizard without Toughness. ...

if the wizard was a human 32 point build starting at 8,8,18,18,8,8 and not a pale master, could one consider dropping toughness?

thanks

[Faent]

if the wizard was a human 32 point build starting at 8,8,18,18,8,8 and not a pale master, could one consider dropping toughness? thanks

If this is your first life, I don't recommend it, and there's really no need to. A human has less HP potential than a WF, thus the WF can drop Toughness more easily. But eventually, yes, a human could even drop Toughness.

I'd recommend dropping Toughness on most wizards that are in Toughness, GFL, a Shroud +45 HP item and at CON +9 from items.

[rtayek]

If this is your first life, I don't recommend it, and there's really no need to. A human has less HP potential than a WF, thus the WF can drop Toughness more easily. But eventually, yes, a human could even drop Toughness.

I'd recommend dropping Toughness on most wizards that are in Toughness, GFL, a Shroud +45 HP item and at CON +9 from items.

got it.

thanks

[Atenhotep]

I believe Insightful reflexes is a non-negotiable must have feat for any wizard at end game.

[orbbital]

I believe Insightful reflexes is a non-negotiable must have feat for any wizard at end game.

not agree on "non-negotiable"

toughness is viable as more hp could give your life a buffer against other damaging effects which depend on your ac, fort, will. yes it might be very good to take insightful reflex to half the fireballs, firewalls, meteors damages, but more hp is never a wrong thing. so it is just "negotiable", i'm not meaning that we must trash out insightful reflex.

[Spookyaction]

I would drop the spell focus conjuration. Think of how much mana you are going to waste having to recast haste and displacement every 2 mins. You dont have to tr but 1 tr will save you a spell pen feat then you can pick up conjuration focus if you really want it.

[Forzah]

I would drop the spell focus conjuration. Think of how much mana you are going to waste having to recast haste and displacement every 2 mins. You dont have to tr but 1 tr will save you a spell pen feat then you can pick up conjuration focus if you really want it.

Not that much actually, since they are lvl 3 spells. You waste 5 mana :P

[Spookyaction]

Not that much actually, since they are lvl 3 spells. You waste 5 mana :P

4 mins haste with extend 27sp without 40. Plus you dont have to get every one together as often which makes it worth it for me.

[Autechre]

Not that much actually, since they are lvl 3 spells. You waste 5 mana :P

Dont forget the quicken cost too (:

[gogetta101]

drop 1 of the spell pens...there is also a feat for that so keep extend and get rid of spell pen..

[Mrmorphling]

Imho extend is 'droppable' for an arch mage but very very handy for a pale master as your death aura really benefits from it.

I.R. is near a must have at end game as pretty much every spell caster will make you regret it; in Echrono, for example, your avg life time will jump from killed by 2nd spell unless i roll 20s to i'll survive the 4th one unless i roll only 1s.

[licho]

Stick to what you have and choose, reason (little weird):
Extend is a silent hero feat, while extend is active. Once you play with it its easy to decide how important it is, how useful, convinient and must have.

There is many of players who do well without one of them.

[krogyy]

Stick to what you have and choose, reason (little weird):
Extend is a silent hero feat, while extend is active. Once you play with it its easy to decide how important it is, how useful, convinient and must have.

There is many of players who do well without one of them.

the point is it may feel different at cap and i'd prefer doing a feat swap at lvl12 than later as it is much cheaper.

[licho]

the point is it may feel different at cap and i'd prefer doing a feat swap at lvl12 than later as it is much cheaper.

You have one free feat swap, after finshing Lockhania quest in marketplace (something drafonmark related).
So as long as its only iR vs extend you can swap them at cap without any cost.