Add +2 Cha to Sorc Capstone

[Aashrym]

What version of PnP are you talking about? In my 3.0 and 3.5 books bard spells end at level 6...

Voodoo already hit it. Sublime Chord was the bard caster PrC and it was much more powerful than the DDO caster PRE with spellsinger.

The Sublime Chord allowed bards to add spells from the sorc / wiz list and up to 9th level. Song of arcane power provided a caster level bonus up to +4 based on perform check. Metamagic song (races of stone) allowed for the swap of bard song daily uses for free meta enhancements per use. There were several songs which provided bonus to DC`s in various supplements.

This also made it much easier for a bard to qualify for epic spells.

Adding enhancements to allow bards to add some sorc / wizzie spells in to spellsingers as enhancements has been suggested and follows similarities to sublime chord. I would not be surprised if we do see something along those lines the third tier for spellsinger when it comes out, but not to the abuse possible in PnP. Supplements could ruin a campaign fast with casters. Limiting the spells to enchantments and illusions would follow the theme better without adding high nuking and mass instant death.

[Aashrym]

Prestige Classes =/= PHB Core classes, not even when it uses the same name though. I appreciate ya doin the work to find these examples, but if that's what Ash meant when he said they could get as many spell levels as sorcs/wiz, then it's kinda disingenuous.

The problem with Prestige Classes is that you have to actually CHANGE class to them in PnP, not tack them on to your normal base class levelling. A level 20 Archmage in PnP for example would not be Wiz(20) with AP's spent on Archmage. They'd be Wiz(10)/Archmage(10) with some pretty drastic alterations to spell progression, feat acquisition, and abilities. Elemental Savants would be Sorc(10)/Savant(10)...etc. So a Sublime Chord PrC would not be a Bard getting those spells, but would be getting those spells despite having been a bard prior to the PrC. The Prestige Bard would be used only in a world where Bards are Not allowed as a base class and must be earned as a prestige class, so by nature they must be more "powerful" in some ways, but come with Prerequisites you must meet to even change into the class. That class is an optional variant.

If we want to go there, we open up a thousand more huge cans of worms for every class...I could go on and on about optional variant stuff for sorcs and wizards in UA and Complete Arcane that I'd like to have, or even stuff in the PHB and DMG.

The core books were pretty hard on bards and it was obvious. 3.5 introduced scaling IC and more skill points but still left a lot to be desired. Supplements tended to favor bards to make up for it. The core rule books obviously did not allow for the extra spell levels, tho, so I can see where I might have been seen as misleading.

[Rodasch]

Thats what studying gets ya more feats = better dc's srry if known had to spell every lil detail for you would of.

More feats does not = better DC's inherently, there are only 2 feats for each school that can improve the DC and a sorcerer can pick spells and feats in such a way that all of his spells have equal DC's to the wizard and still have some feats left over for other metas or whatever. What those extra feats do equal, is versatility and freedom to pick regular feats with their regular feats instead of burning them on metamagics...which often means wizards more commonly have feats like enlarge, empower, maximize, etc which actually increase the damage and range and such. It's about not having to make as many hard choices...getting to have their cake and eat it too...sorcs have to pick a focus for themselves and wind up better at that focus than a wizard, often times...but extremely lacking in all other areas compared to that wizard.

There is a dc gap in pnp due to feats if built right also but won't go there should be plain to see.

No, there isn't, "if built right".

In pnp they are balanced in ddo to make them balanced they have savants and archmages/palemasters and such to show the differance in classes.

Those two things are not related in the way you seem to be representing them. The differences in the classes are differences in the classes, independent of the prestige enhancements. The prestige enhancements add to the root classes and accentuate (or even create) differences in and of themselves, but the vast majority of the "defining differences" you and others claim for wizards (higher DC's et al) do not exist from level 1-19 in the absence of said prestige enhancements given equal focus on casting stats and DC casting. The DC variance is created entirely by Enhancements...Prestige, and Capstone.

I also believe that some like you and me may interpret it differently but thats how I see it may not be the same as you but all people are different and see things and interpret them different. Just my OP though.

Yeah, I'm not attacking you personally, just think your interpretation is a little off base. We can agree to disagree I suppose, if you like.

[Beethoven]

Let's put it in actual numbers though:

Wizards get a 5% increased chance to land spells and ~2-4 SP discount per spell cast. There are significantly few spells using all five metamagics. Most Enchantment and Necromancy spells only use Heighten and Quicken, several damage spells only use Empower and Maximize. Hypothetically there would also be Enlarge but few people will use Enlarge and Quicken the same time. Sorcerer get a 20% increased damage on all spells.

+1 DC is nice but really not all that and I'd even argue less than +20% damage. However, the respective capstones are boosted by the Pre's currently available. Now, if the topic would be add Maximize and Empower cost 2 less spellpoints to use I'd be in agreement with the change. However, +20% damage and +1 DC is just too much. Also, I really don't like the comparison with other classes since they also enjoy other benefits (ie: Sorcerer still have better CC than Favored Soul, they have superior Insta-kill spells often at a similar DC and they have a vastly better selection of damage spells).

Generally spoken, I see the real problem in there being just too few Capstones out there and some class specific capstones are really only useful for very specific builds and near useless for others.

The sorcerer capstone is very good for Savants and Sorcerer specializing in damage spells, less so for generalists.
Favored Souls have relative decent capstone SLA as humans, but the rest? Invisibility? Command Undead? Shield? They are really not all that useful.
Rangers? The capstone does significantly little for Tempest builds.
Monk is generally not that useful.
Rogue? Cheat death is sort of nice, but the Dex bonus really only that useful for Dex builds. Strength based assassins usually are better off take two levels of fighter or something.

I could go on, but I think painted the picture of what I mean already. There are capstones that could use a little buff (and yes, I do consider Sorcerer one of them I just think +2 Cha above and beyond the damage boost is too much). There are also entire classes that could use a different (and perhaps second) capstone since the existing ones only are beneficial to half (or less) the builds/Pre's.

[Rodasch]

The core books were pretty hard on bards and it was obvious. 3.5 introduced scaling IC and more skill points but still left a lot to be desired. Supplements tended to favor bards to make up for it. The core rule books obviously did not allow for the extra spell levels, tho, so I can see where I might have been seen as misleading.

Np, Ash, I get what you were saying now.

[Bilger]

Yeah, I'm not attacking you personally, just think your interpretation is a little off base. We can agree to disagree I suppose, if you like.

We will have to because we both are looking at it from different points I see yours but as you said to me it is off based like you think mine is.

[Aashrym]

Only if you are talking PRCs (and if you do that, wizards start to creep ahead of Sorcs in the DC department).

At this point though, it's difficult to really compare PNP to DDO for these. Metamagics, prepping spells, etc. are all vastly different.

I am getting off topic, so a final note on that.

Bards didn`t prep spells anyway. You obviously appear to be familiar with PnP rules and can see the differences. I can still see adding spells for those higher levels using AP and enhancements to reduce meta costs for spellsingers.


More on topic:

I think DDO is following suit with the PrE vs PrC in the MMO adaptation with wizard DC`s creeping ahead of sorcs. It is the PrE`s that make the difference in DDO too. The capstone is only worth 1 DC and only if the wizard did not splash for evasion.

[Bilger]

More on topic:

I think DDO is following suit with the PrE vs PrC in the MMO adaptation with wizard DC`s creeping ahead of sorcs. It is the PrE`s that make the difference in DDO too. The capstone is only worth 1 DC and only if the wizard did not splash for evasion.

Exactly!!

[voodoogroves]

I am getting off topic, so a final note on that.

Bards didn`t prep spells anyway. You obviously appear to be familiar with PnP rules and can see the differences. I can still see adding spells for those higher levels using AP and enhancements to reduce meta costs for spellsingers.


More on topic:

I think DDO is following suit with the PrE vs PrC in the MMO adaptation with wizard DC`s creeping ahead of sorcs. It is the PrE`s that make the difference in DDO too. The capstone is only worth 1 DC and only if the wizard did not splash for evasion.

Yeah, prep comment was back on Sorc/Wizard discussion; I'd left bards. Warchanter and Virt didn't even progress spells ;-) ... and I still want a Lyric Thaumaturge (and the other schools of magic to be useful ... gimme my Unluck dammit)

Those don't translate well to DDO because their classes / APs are pretty well linear and non-combinational. I'd love for my Wizard to be a Savant or my Sorc to be a Pale Master. PNP lets you do stuff like that. Gimme! (I suggested this a while back)


Back to DDO

My fear/worry with the spell pass was that we'd become flavored DPS and more highly specialized. We kinda are that. Prior to U9 I actually used a wealth of spells on my wizard, and I appreciate the removal of epic ward but I'm still going to lobby for a more challenging environment to make the instakills less universally useful instead of flat nerfing them.

I want options, and I want them to matter - not nerfing one option that works into something nonworkable or unreachable by most (RE the thread started w/ the multi past lives bit)

[Perceval]

Ok, as a cleric I fully understand how the capstone for clerics bites big blue donkey ..um nevermind....

There is absolutely nothing abou the cleric capstone that make the character better in anyway other then to be a buff for other players. Infact, the capstone is a spell that should already be in the game since it is in PnP. +2 Wisdom would certainly be an option or even +2 charisma for the extra turn/blast it would give. Either way there is absolutely zero reason for a cleric to take the capstone other then to be someone elses buff bot.

[Rodasch]

Ok, as a cleric I fully understand how the capstone for clerics bites big blue donkey ..um nevermind....

There is absolutely nothing abou the cleric capstone that make the character better in anyway other then to be a buff for other players. Infact, the capstone is a spell that should already be in the game since it is in PnP. +2 Wisdom would certainly be an option or even +2 charisma for the extra turn/blast it would give. Either way there is absolutely zero reason for a cleric to take the capstone other then to be someone elses buff bot.

I agree completely.

[Aashrym]

Yeah, prep comment was back on Sorc/Wizard discussion; I'd left bards. Warchanter and Virt didn't even progress spells ;-) ... and I still want a Lyric Thaumaturge (and the other schools of magic to be useful ... gimme my Unluck dammit)

Those don't translate well to DDO because their classes / APs are pretty well linear and non-combinational. I'd love for my Wizard to be a Savant or my Sorc to be a Pale Master. PNP lets you do stuff like that. Gimme! (I suggested this a while back)


Back to DDO

My fear/worry with the spell pass was that we'd become flavored DPS and more highly specialized. We kinda are that. Prior to U9 I actually used a wealth of spells on my wizard, and I appreciate the removal of epic ward but I'm still going to lobby for a more challenging environment to make the instakills less universally useful instead of flat nerfing them.

I want options, and I want them to matter - not nerfing one option that works into something nonworkable or unreachable by most (RE the thread started w/ the multi past lives bit)

PnP warchanters and virts sucked anyway. I was a Sublime Chord fan, Lyric Thaumaturge was decent too and allowed spell secrets for swapping and sonic might. Both of those suggestions are in the link in my sig for that matter, likely posted by me.

I`ve also requested unluck on more than one occasion and several of the complete mage sonic spells for bards. So I guess you pulled me back off topic a bit.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Since people seem to be sticking to mostly the question of how it would so overpower Sorcs and Wizards would become useless if they got +2 Cha as part of the current or even a new Capstone because 1 more DC would total tip the table towards them.


At level 20 with Semi Basic Epic ready gear, supplied by either another character, or by a guild that will help you out the comparison will look something like this.

44 Int (18 base 5 level 3 enhancement 2 tome 7 item 3 exceptional 2 Ship 2 Capstone 2 Lich)
41 Necro (10 Base 9 Spell level 17 Int 2 Focus 1 Lich 2 Item)
40 Ench (10 Base 9 Spell level 17 Int 2 Focus 2 Item)
39 Conj (10 Base 9 Spell level 17 Int 3 Item)
37 Evo (10 Base 9 Spell level 17 Int 1 Item)
37 Others (10 Base 9 Spell level 17 Int 1 Item)

28 Spell Pen ( 20 Levels 3 Enhancement 1 Item 4 Feat)

Con 36 (18 Base 2 Tome 2 Ship 2 Rage 6 Item 2 Exceptional 4 Lich)

487 HP (20 Base 10 Draconic Vitality 40 Level 30 GFL 45 Shroud 20 Toughness 22 Toughness 20 Toughness Enhancements 20 PM 260 Con)

VS

42 Cha (20 Base 5 level 3 enhancement 2 tome 7 item 3 exceptional 2 Ship)

37 Necro (10 Base 9 Spell level 16 Cha 2 Item)
39 Ench (10 Base 9 Spell level 16 Cha 2 Focus 2 Item)
36/38 Conj (10 Base 9 Spell level 16 Cha 1/3 Item)
38 Evo (10 Base 9 Spell level 16 Cha 1 Focus 2 Item)
36 Others (10 Base 9 Spell level 16 Cha 1 Item)

28 Spell Pen ( 20 Levels 3 Enhancement 1 Item 4 Feat)

Con 28 (14 Base 2 Tome 2 Ship 2 Rage 6 Item 2 Exceptional)

345 HP (20 Base 10 Draconic Vitality 40 Level 30 GFL 45 Shroud 180 Con)

You might think to your self at first glance "look they are pretty close, he's proving my point for me!" but look closely and you see a 140 point HP discrepancy, a 1 point Casting stat difference that becomes 2 points if the Wizard goes Human or Drow, and at least 1 less DC in every school except Evocation only because a Sorc is forced to take that or Conjuration Focus and is using a +2 item instead of a +1. A Sorc who wants to get barely passable DCs in any single school is forced to forego almost all other schools in addition to having to get even more expensive and time time consuming gear. A Wizard could quite easily turn that 40 Enchant into a 42 while still maintaining a 41 Necro, just by changing Race and switching to AM with Necro on the side.

Do I think Sorcs should have the same DCs as a Wizard? No, but the ever widening gap is becoming ridiculous. Should Sorcs have to choose between Damage DCs and survivability? Yes, but the fact that Wizards can get better DCs and survivability and nearly equal damage when it counts is quite disturbing. And the mana pool of a Sorcerer means almost nothing, there are too many shrines in almost every quest in the game already. Besides for every 4 spells a Sorc casts trying to DPS down a group of Epic mobs a Wizard can get an even greater effect with any one of 6 spells and a smart party.

I really don't understand why so many are against the idea, I'm not asking for the moon, merely a +2 Cha Capstone.

/EDIT
Missed point was missed, Maybe shorter post will help future readers

[voodoogroves]

lotsomess

Drow Sorc, WF Wizard? And you bring up survivability and HP as a difference between the classes?

Apples/Apples if you want to compare ... where's that WF Earth Savant sorc? Or the Drow Archmage?



I for one am not saying that a CHA capstone wouldn't be cool - I'm saying that the current sorc PRE + capstone is very strong; the capstone itself is already one of the strongest and it is on a class that, frankly, is darn near the top of the heap.

I'd love to see a non-damage path for Sorcs. I'd advocate a capstone choice; but they certainly don't need an across the board lift.

[Aashrym]

Cool story with numbers.

I agree with what Voodoo just said. The hp was a choice to take less hp and the class was a choice for a class obviously geared for damage.

You are still comparing the capstone for 2 AP to an entire tier III line PRE of enhancements and claiming you should get more for your 2 AP.

Sorcs have a good capstone. Push for a PRE that helps with DC`s instead of damage.

EDIT: This is a side note, but that PM takes double damage from some spells. I don`t know if it affects WF PM`s, but incapped equals death on PM`s too. Not so common to hit incap in epics but can happen. Drives me crazy when it does, so there a couple of minor weaknesses in there. I have also been chill touched and failed a save.

[Bilger]

.........................

Nice story but as another stated focused only to one side and can change build completely around to favor sorc for survivability and such so in end has very lil point.

If want a +2 char bonus it should not b added to existing capstone it is fine as is and just adds more power to one of (ONE OF) the highest dps classes in game.

If want the DC's ya can get them on a sorc just not as high as a AM or PM which is as should be.

Maybe someday a pre will be introduced but wouldn't hold my breath.

Seriously with right gear a sorc can hit a 40 dc if works hard at it with gear and epic items. Never expect to match a AM that is not what a sorc is meant to be.

The casting classes are well defined IMO and the capstones are fine.

I wouldn't be against a seperate capstone that gives a +2 char bonus but not on top of what they have.

[Dispel]

Wizards get 5 free metamagics, but less SP.

Sorcs get 20% more damage, but no +2 Ability.

If you want higher DCs, go Drow or Human, or maybe TR.

[Rodasch]

Like how everyone completely ignored the difference in the DC's of the two examples given above and focused on the survivability issue. You guys realize that example was weighted to be in favor of the sorc, DC wise, and it still came out behind by a large margin (4pts in necro, 1-2 pts behind everywhere else, except evocation where it was 1pt ahead).

That's WITH a +2 cha capstone calculated.

If a drow sorc who focused on DC's to the detriment of hit points is still 2-4 DC behind a warforged wizard who did not try quite so hard for max DC's, I'm not sure how you guys feel this is overpowered. Especially given that either wizard PrE would outclass that sorcerer in the same way, DC wise and still retain more versatility.

[Tsuarok]

Please add 1k sps to the wizard capstone. Some damage might be nice too.

[Aashrym]

Like how everyone completely ignored the difference in the DC's of the two examples given above and focused on the survivability issue. You guys realize that example was weighted to be in favor of the sorc, DC wise, and it still came out behind by a large margin (4pts in necro, 1-2 pts behind everywhere else, except evocation where it was 1pt ahead).

That's WITH a +2 cha capstone calculated.

If a drow sorc who focused on DC's to the detriment of hit points is still 2-4 DC behind a warforged wizard who did not try quite so hard for max DC's, I'm not sure how you guys feel this is overpowered. Especially given that either wizard PrE would outclass that sorcerer in the same way, DC wise and still retain more versatility.

I don`t see the theoretical +2 CHA capstone in there.

"42 Cha (20 Base 5 level 3 enhancement 2 tome 7 item 3 exceptional 2 Ship)"

Normally sorcs are 1-3 DC`s behind a wizard when the sorc is trying to do what the wiz is designed to do instead of what the sorc is designed to do. Square peg forced into a round hole because the poster is still trying to compare a PrE with bonus DC`s to a PrE without them that has different benefits. That wizard paid a lot more AP for those DC`s than the sorc did for his and they are still close for the most part.

In the above example the DC is only 1 less on the sorc than the wiz for most schools listed, better for evocation, and less for necro. That is pretty close with the exception of the 1 school palemasters specialize in while the sorc still has faster casting and higher damage.

Add cleric, fvs, and spellsinger casters in the mix and the sorc is absolutely competitive with other caster DC`s out there plus better spell selection. Giving him the wizzie DC`s with the sorc damage still leaves the sorc way ahead as far as offensive casting.