Add +2 Cha to Sorc Capstone

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Something that has annoyed me for a long time is that Sorcs don't get +2 charisma from their capstone. This is also true of Clerics. Both Cleric and Sorc Capstones are 1 dimensional were as Wizards get +2 Int and -1 to all metamagic costs, FvS get +2 cha as well as their SLA, and Bards get a Capstone that makes Caster Bards, even better than Sorcerers, Giving them +2 Cha +2 Spell Pen and +2 to spell DCs The only thing that would keep a CC Sorc better than an equivalently geared and feated bard is the fact that Sorcs get MHM.

Please give those Sorcs (and Clerics) who want to crowd control a little love and add +2 cha (or wis) to their Capstones.

P.S. I do think that bards should get a Melee Capstone but make your own suggestion thread for it!

[TheDearLeader]

Bards need much of that love to be effective caster/controllers due to having a Max Spell level of 6 as opposed to other "caster classes" having a max Spell level 9.

But, I agree. +2 Cha for Sorcs, +2 Wis for Clerics.

[Dwarfo]

agreed, but doesnt really matter, fvs/wizzies are always the first pick

[barryman5000]

I don't know about sorcs getting a +2 cha but clerics need a +2 wis. The capstone for clerics sucks and the capstone for sorcs is kinda where turbine was trying to place them (damage > dc's). I'd love for a +2 cha but I think turbine won't budge.

[Dragaer]

Seriously? 20% damage is pretty darn good - one of the better capstone's in the game. The FvS (for example) +2 cha does nothing for the build except a couple more SP. Not a good comparison at all.

[Darkrok]

I have to disagree.

While I'll agree that the cleric capstone needs some love the sorc capstone is fine as is. 20% bonus to all outgoing damage is outstanding.

[DoctorWhofan]

The Sorcerer's is fine. THe cleric one I agree with.

So

/half signed?

[TheDearLeader]

I don't know about sorcs getting a +2 cha but clerics need a +2 wis. The capstone for clerics sucks and the capstone for sorcs is kinda where turbine was trying to place them (damage > dc's). I'd love for a +2 cha but I think turbine won't budge.

DCs related to damage for a large amount of spells, including the Sorc's SLAs. A Sorc without DCs will do dramatically less damage than a Sorc with.

Seriously? 20% damage is pretty darn good - one of the better capstone's in the game. The FvS (for example) +2 cha does nothing for the build except a couple more SP. Not a good comparison at all.

Sorcs who make level 20 -> d4 Hit Die, 20% Damage Capstone.
FvS who make level 20 -> d8 Hit Die, Dr 10/Metal, a Capstone which grants that extra Charsima AND a SLA.

So sure, I guess if you ignore the SLA, and the other benefits of being FvS 20.. pure FvS sucks, man. Gee, wonder why so many of them stay pure.

If anything, argue that you don't like your particular FvS's SLA, like the Shield clickie for Lord of Blades. As it is, Sovereign Host SLA is well-used by many of the Human FvSs that I know, and worth level 20 by itself.

[Gkar]

Seriously? 20% damage is pretty darn good - one of the better capstone's in the game. The FvS (for example) +2 cha does nothing for the build except a couple more SP. Not a good comparison at all.

It's true, they should get +2 WIS instead

I suspect whoever wrote the capstones hasn't played an FvS.

[thenalim]

20% extra dmg is so much better than 2 charisma it's not even funny.

[barryman5000]

DCs related to damage for a large amount of spells, including the Sorc's SLAs. A Sorc without DCs will do dramatically less damage than a Sorc with. . . .

Of course thats true but I unless you dump stat cha you can get a fairly good dc on any sorc since they attack reflex saves. If you need to hurt an enemy with evasion and high reflex then don't use those spells. Your capstone still applies to the no-save spells.

I guess I was saying was that a +2 cha capstone would be good for a more generalist sorc. If they added I would be fine with it. I just wouldn't take it unless I went enchantment based or something.

[Dragaer]

DearLeader, you are twisting the point and making a different argument completely...we're talking about the capstone, not other class benefits.

The DR for the FvS is a level 20 feat. The OP is speaking about capstones, and that is what I (and most others in this post) am referring to.

[voodoogroves]

Do not add it.

Maybe provide it as an option (like Rogue) ... +2 CHA ****OR**** +20% damage.

That'd give some love to folks who want to be DC-based, but clearly Sorcs don't need a flat-out boost.


Same with clerics ... DI is pretty dang strong on top of a strong class.

[redspecter23]

I would like +2 wis for my monk as well please. I have DC based abilities too

[licho]

Something that has annoyed me for a long time is that Sorcs don't get +2 charisma from their capstone. This is also true of Clerics. Both Cleric and Sorc Capstones are 1 dimensional were as Wizards get +2 Int and -1 to all metamagic costs, FvS get +2 cha as well as their SLA, and Bards get a Capstone that makes Caster Bards, even better than Sorcerers, Giving them +2 Cha +2 Spell Pen and +2 to spell DCs The only thing that would keep a CC Sorc better than an equivalently geared and feated bard is the fact that Sorcs get MHM.

Please give those Sorcs (and Clerics) who want to crowd control a little love and add +2 cha (or wis) to their Capstones.

P.S. I do think that bards should get a Melee Capstone but make your own suggestion thread for it!

I cant said anything about sorc capstone, imho its fair one and in theme with class. If smbd want better CC or instakills then should play wiz or bard. Thats are class differences.

Maybe as other capstone, exluding current one, +2Cha or +20% dmg, but considering state of other class PrE, poor ranger Capstone, and others things to do... its like begging for another limo.

Its weird your are suprised that Bards are good in CC, its WAI, bards class is supposed to be good at it.
And since we start talking about bards AP options, what about PrE III?

I can agree that Clerics need more choice with capstone. The current one works only in situacion which we want to avoid most of the time. All others are useful 24/7.

And for the gods love do something with ranger melee capstone.

[TheDearLeader]

Of course thats true but I unless you dump stat cha you can get a fairly good dc on any sorc since they attack reflex saves. If you need to hurt an enemy with evasion and high reflex then don't use those spells. Your capstone still applies to the no-save spells.

I guess I was saying was that a +2 cha capstone would be good for a more generalist sorc. If they added I would be fine with it. I just wouldn't take it unless I went enchantment based or something.

Sorcs don't get into eChrono for their +20 Deeps. They get in when their imaginary DC number on Enchantment/Necro reaches a certain number.

So unless you have a magic wand that changes how people think, Sorcs don't fill a Deeps slot.

DearLeader, you are twisting the point and making a different argument completely...we're talking about the capstone, not other class benefits.

The DR for the FvS is a level 20 feat. The OP is speaking about capstones, and that is what I (and most others in this post) am referring to.

Capstones, and the DR, are both advantages of staying pure and going 20. I apologize that you fail to see that correlation.

I'm pointing out that there is more to a Capstone than a Capstone. Wizards, for example, get a capstone that gives them +2 Int (More SP and DCs), cheaper spellcasting (watch that SP divide between Sorc and Wiz shrink... shrink...oh and it's gone), but they also get a level 20 metamagic feat. Wizards get 3 things @ level 20 that convince them to stay pure.. Sorcs get 1. Woo?

Do not add it.

Maybe provide it as an option (like Rogue) ... +2 CHA ****OR**** +20% damage.

That'd give some love to folks who want to be DC-based, but clearly Sorcs don't need a flat-out boost.

Same with clerics ... DI is pretty dang strong on top of a strong class.

See the above.

I'm fine with the Capstone being split between one or the other the day when Wizard has to choose between a DC boost and cheaper spellcasting. Oh, and when I get a free metamagic @ 20.

[Tirisha]

Agreed, lower the Damage % or make a new capstone if it is necessary. IMO Sorcs would be much better off with CHA than the current capstone.

[voodoogroves]

I'm fine with the Capstone being split between one or the other the day when Wizard has to choose between a DC boost and cheaper spellcasting. Oh, and when I get a free metamagic @ 20.

(1) The wizard feat is not a Turbine-added capstone. That's a class ability. Like Paladin's CHA to saves or the other wizard bonus feats at 1/5/10/15 ... or fighter feats, etc.

(2) So that leads us to talk about balance and DDO specific mechanics. Sorcs need more than they have currently? Really?


I'm fine if someone wants to build a DC sorc ... but to make every current sorc (who isn't struggling by the way - none of mine certainy are) just that much better, for free ... really?


I'm kinda wondering w/ the talk of needing FVS and Sorc bonuses to their DC stat if you're experiencing an entirely different game than I am.




Don't get me wrong ... if Sorc and FVS got a respective boost to their capstones I'd take it like a greedy kid in a candy shop ... but as someone who has plenty of casters capped and TR'd/TRing, I can honestly say I don't think Sorcs or FVS need those boosts at all. You're seriously underestimating the value of that 20%. That's 20 freaking percent to spell damage, the Sorc bread and butter.

Is there a capstone that provides more DPS out there?

[Dragaer]

... Wizards get 3 things @ level 20 that convince them to stay pure.. Sorcs get 1. Woo?

I'm not sure how many different arguments you are trying to make here. The OP started off talking about the capstone - and now you want to say what diff classes get at 20 (all inclusive). Specifically about the wiz you mentioned, that one feat at 20 is part of a set of feats they get every 5 levels (1,5,10,15 and 20). So lets call shenanigans about how wizards get more than sorcs do?

If you want to get in a discussion about class benefits, and how each are different lets start another thread and keep this one to the capstone?

[maddmatt70]

My fighter wants +2 strength, my pally +2 to charisma or +2 to strength, my rogue +2 strength or +2 to dexterity, my ranger +2 to strength or +2 dexterity, etc... So you say you want +2 cha on your sorc that already gets a nice boost on spell dps. The cleric one in my opinion is not so great, but that is another story.