Add +2 Cha to Sorc Capstone

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Like how everyone completely ignored the difference in the DC's of the two examples given above and focused on the survivability issue. You guys realize that example was weighted to be in favor of the sorc, DC wise, and it still came out behind by a large margin (4pts in necro, 1-2 pts behind everywhere else, except evocation where it was 1pt ahead).

That's WITH a +2 cha capstone calculated.

If a drow sorc who focused on DC's to the detriment of hit points is still 2-4 DC behind a warforged wizard who did not try quite so hard for max DC's, I'm not sure how you guys feel this is overpowered. Especially given that either wizard PrE would outclass that sorcerer in the same way, DC wise and still retain more versatility.

Thank you for seeing the point, although the Cha was without a +2 Cha capstone

Very well since the point of the first comparison was missed by most here is your apples to apples


44 Int
41 Necro
40 Ench
39 Conj
37 Evo
37 Others

28 Spell Pen

487 HP

VS

38 Cha

35 Necro
36 Ench
34/36 Conj
37 Evo
33 Others

24 Spell Pen

427 HP


The gaps are now even larger, you are even less likely to land a Debuff cause your can't bypass Spell Pen, you Can't MHM cause even if you make it through their SR there is a pretty good chance they will save right off the bat or with in 4 seconds. Can't even Finger Archers anymore, just casters. You just lost about 10% of the damage your CL, Lightning bolt SLA and Ball Lightning because even with a 38, as well as while he was debuffed, you were having trouble getting past the saves on Horroth/Suulo and now it is even worse. Don't worry too much though, your capstone makes up for the damage lost then some! Oh wait, Capstone doesn't give 20% more damage total, curse you lieing description!

But hey I can heal myself now! AND I have 82 more HP!

Funny that you bring up how uber DPS they are, cause I have yet to see a pug take more than 1 sorc in a DPS slot, unless it is a semi-guild run or Abbot. People don't seem to realize just how much damage they lose when they get half the spells they cast saved for half because they still do damage, your not looking at exactly how much. Go fight a mob with evasion using only Spells with a Reflex Save or a troll using only Disintegrate and see just how many more casts it would take than to finger it or hit it with a Polar Ray, That is pretty much what it is like while DPSing a Raid boss who has much better saves than a normal mob. Getting even 1/4 your spells saved for half is a massive DPS decrease.

You say use spells with no saves then. Well the wizard only deals a little less over the same time frame and if he conserves even more by using things like Embers or Cove Dagger, His SP pool will go just as far as the Sorc's pool, the Boss's death.

[phalaeo]

Same with clerics ... DI is pretty dang strong on top of a strong class.

This comment surprises me. Personally, I think DI is ****, useful only in Abbot and the VoD entrance puzzle. In fact, I think it's so useless that I haven't had a pure Cleric in over a year.

I'd love to see +2 WIS as a Capstone for Clerics, although I'm not certain how useful it is... you can get +2 WIS from multiclassing 2 levels Monk, and get Evasion, etc., etc.

I suppose it would be a nice option for those who like pure classes or don't have Monk. I'd support it, but it'd take a lot for me to give up multiclassing my Clerics.

[voodoogroves]

This comment surprises me. Personally, I think DI is ****, useful only in Abbot and the VoD entrance puzzle. In fact, I think it's so useless that I haven't had a pure Cleric in over a year.

The thing that makes it hard is that it is thematically very similar to teleport and d door. You don't need it, you can do everything without it and it doesn't give you a flat x% increase every second of every day.


That's why I value it high. It's fundamentally different - though I admit not constantly useful.



But as I said before, I'd happily support multiple capstone options and or a boost to Cleric. While I think it's pretty dang strong, what I won't say is "dear god, Clerics don't need a boost at all".

[Aashrym]

Thank you for seeing the point, although the Cha was without a +2 Cha capstone

Very well since the point of the first comparison was missed by most here is your apples to apples


44 Int
41 Necro
40 Ench
39 Conj
37 Evo
37 Others

28 Spell Pen

487 HP

VS

38 Cha

35 Necro
36 Ench
34/36 Conj
37 Evo
33 Others

24 Spell Pen

427 HP


The gaps are now even larger, you are even less likely to land a Debuff cause your can't bypass Spell Pen, you Can't MHM cause even if you make it through their SR there is a pretty good chance they will save right off the bat or with in 4 seconds. Can't even Finger Archers anymore, just casters. You just lost about 10% of the damage your CL, Lightning bolt SLA and Ball Lightning because even with a 38, as well as while he was debuffed, you were having trouble getting past the saves on Horroth/Suulo and now it is even worse. Don't worry too much though, your capstone makes up for the damage lost then some! Oh wait, Capstone doesn't give 20% more damage total, curse you lieing description!

But hey I can heal myself now! AND I have 82 more HP!

Funny that you bring up how uber DPS they are, cause I have yet to see a pug take more than 1 sorc in a DPS slot, unless it is a semi-guild run or Abbot. People don't seem to realize just how much damage they lose when they get half the spells they cast saved for half because they still do damage, your not looking at exactly how much. Go fight a mob with evasion using only Spells with a Reflex Save or a troll using only Disintegrate and see just how many more casts it would take than to finger it or hit it with a Polar Ray, That is pretty much what it is like while DPSing a Raid boss who has much better saves than a normal mob. Getting even 1/4 your spells saved for half is a massive DPS decrease.

You say use spells with no saves then. Well the wizard only deals a little less over the same time frame and if he conserves even more by using things like Embers or Cove Dagger, His SP pool will go just as far as the Sorc's pool, the Boss's death.

It`s still not apples to apples. You want better DC`s for free with your sorc because the wiz had better DC`s he paid 3 tiers of a PrE and an add on to add DC`s.

Why on earth would you think you deserve wiz dc`s with sorc damage? Seriously, if you try to make your class in to something another class is designed to do better you might to want expect the other class to be able to do it better. Just saying.

What change did you make to spell penetration that it just became worse?

Your evocation DC is the same but your damage bonus is higher. You are better off than the wizard when you mention the save for half damage. By a lot with the bonus to caster levels for savant.

Don`t use mass hold monster. Use disco ball and kite thru it. The affected creatures have penalties to their reflex saves you just mentioned while dancing and you won`t lose them as fast as mass hold monster if that is an issue.

I can polar ray or eladars dot or niacs or even greater magic missile or horrid wilting or PWK, maybe dot ice storm and I am not concerned with evasion or the reflex saves. With damage bonuses on some of those. Just because a portion of your spells doesn`t work well against high reflex evasion mobs doesn`t make the rest disappear and you also have with the enchantment spells you took feat focus in to use instead. I don`t know which spells you want but I do know there are alternatives to the scenario you described and choosing not to use them doesn`t mean you are at a disadvantage.

Why does your example use enchantment focus and then you talk about necro spells? Take necro focus instead. The DC`s will still get high enough to wail or finger low fort targets if that is what you want. You still haven`t been left behind in casting by bards, clerics, and fvs`s as far as DC`s go. Either that or fall back on enchantments at that point because that is what you took focus in. Asking for better DC`s so you can have better necro DC`s and then not taking spell focus feats in it while comparing to someone who did will of course leave you farther behind.

The wizard dealing only a little less actually deals a lot less between caster level bonuses, savant curse when applicable, sorc capstone, and sorc faster casting speeds. The SP does not last as long on the wizard unless he`s SP pot junkies on you even with his capstone, you have access to the same equipment, and sorcs get double SP from a lot of items wizards do not.

DPSing a raid boss give you a huge advantage, not a disadvantage. The wizzie dc`s are not going to hold or finger said boss and you have benefits over that wizard in everything when it comes to spell DPS. I do see sorcs one and two shot mobs in epics with aoe damage. They have no trouble filling a DPS slot regardless of your claim you don`t see it in pugs because I do see it in pugs. I see it more in raids than 6 man quests but I do see it.

Honestly the SP pool is not such an advantage these days, IMO, with SP being replenishable. But the damage bonus and casting speed are great. Don`t try to fit that square peg into a round hole and wonder why the hole isn`t square.

Those are some hastily posted thoughts on your reply. When I see someone claim they need to have DC`s to match wiz I wonder what is wrong with DC`s to match a fvs or cleric or bard caster because that`s where they all are at roughly. The wizard DC`s are what he has going for him that set`s him apart and it`s not even because he`s a wizard, it`s because he spent a boat load of req`s for a couple more DC. In the palemaster example the DC`s didn`t come with the wizard, or even the pre. They came with the addon after the PRE at level 18 when in the meantime the sorc has +6 levels in his chosen element to compare, or +3 to the cap on some spells.

If you think you need more DC`s perhaps wizards need +4 bonus caster levels added to their capstone to make up for the savant PRE? Because that is why you think your sorc needs higher DC`s.

Sorry about the wall of text, but you seem to think I don`t get your point, but really I do and I disagree with it because again, not comparing apples to apples and pushing for something you don`t need. Again, just some quick thoughts, meant in healthy discussion, read the casual discussion in them.

[Aashrym]

The thing that makes it hard is that it is thematically very similar to teleport and d door. You don't need it, you can do everything without it and it doesn't give you a flat x% increase every second of every day.


That's why I value it high. It's fundamentally different - though I admit not constantly useful.



But as I said before, I'd happily support multiple capstone options and or a boost to Cleric. While I think it's pretty dang strong, what I won't say is "dear god, Clerics don't need a boost at all".

I really don`t care for the cleric capstone. I would much prefer an alternate too. It`s not useful most of the time.

[Chette]

The extra elemental damage AND +2 to Charisma would be overpowered. The capstone is fine as it is IMO, and accentuates the difference between wizards and sorcerers.

The cleric capstone on the other hand is COMPLETE GARBAGE. I didn't take it even when I was a level 20 cleric. Learn how to use a freaking iceball wand, I'm not Celimas.

[Bodic]

lets go nutz on comparison
drow pale master
20 base
5 lvl ups
3 enhancements
3 exceptional
7 int item(must be a robe)
4 tome
2 ship
2 lich form
2 yugo pot
2 store pot
2 capstone
1 lotd
53 so subtract 4 from no lich form and capstone
a sorc gets 49 possible and a wiz should have Higher DC's that looks like 2 from casting stat
now if you go archmage subtract 4 as no drow AM would drop their fort that low on a yugo so sorc is the same as an AM.

[Tirisha]

lets go nutz on comparison
drow pale master
20 base
5 lvl ups
3 enhancements
3 exceptional
7 int item(must be a robe)
4 tome
2 ship
2 lich form
2 yugo pot
2 store pot
2 capstone
1 lotd
53 so subtract 4 from no lich form and capstone
a sorc gets 49 possible and a wiz should have Higher DC's that looks like 2 from casting stat
now if you go archmage subtract 4 as no drow AM would drop their fort that low on a yugo so sorc is the same as an AM.

O.o

[Aashrym]

lets Go Nutz On Comparison
Drow Pale Master
20 Base
5 Lvl Ups
3 Enhancements
3 Exceptional
7 Int Item(must Be A Robe)
4 Tome
2 Ship
2 Lich Form
2 Yugo Pot
2 Store Pot
2 Capstone
1 Lotd
53 So Subtract 4 From No Lich Form And Capstone
A Sorc Gets 49 Possible And A Wiz Should Have Higher Dc's That Looks Like 2 From Casting Stat
Now If You Go Archmage Subtract 4 As No Drow Am Would Drop Their Fort That Low On A Yugo So Sorc Is The Same As An Am.

I like it

[Rodasch]

I don`t see the theoretical +2 CHA capstone in there.

You are correct, my mistake. That's what I get for posting while tired. Sorry bout that.

[Aashrym]

You are correct, my mistake. That's what I get for posting while tired. Sorry bout that.

I`m alwasy right. Just ask me.

I post things when I`m tired or distracted by work sometimes tho.

[Rodasch]

lets go nutz on comparison
drow pale master
20 base
5 lvl ups
3 enhancements
3 exceptional
7 int item(must be a robe)
4 tome
2 ship
2 lich form
2 yugo pot
2 store pot
2 capstone
1 lotd
53 so subtract 4 from no lich form and capstone
a sorc gets 49 possible and a wiz should have Higher DC's that looks like 2 from casting stat
now if you go archmage subtract 4 as no drow AM would drop their fort that low on a yugo so sorc is the same as an AM.

Are you implying a drow sorc should use Yugo pots and drop their fort that low but a drow AM should not, then comparing the two? Or are you calculating the sorc without Yugo as well?

AM's also get +2 DC to one school and +1 DC to a secondary school on top of the +1 DC to all schools from capstone, putting them +3 DC in one school and +2 DC in a secondary one above sorcs with current capstone enhancements.

PM's get +2 DC to enchantment in vamp form or +1 DC to necro in lich form on top of the stat boost that comes with the form.

[Miacorva]

/not signed

[Rodasch]

Honestly at this point, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. When I posted my thread on the +2 Cha it was before savants was released and it was more relevant. Now I'm a big fan of the +1 DC to evocation and conjuration idea instead, since that fits better.

[voodoogroves]

Are you implying a drow sorc should use Yugo pots and drop their fort that low but a drow AM should not, then comparing the two? Or are you calculating the sorc without Yugo as well?

AM's also get +2 DC to one school and +1 DC to a secondary school on top of the +1 DC to all schools from capstone, putting them +3 DC in one school and +2 DC in a secondary one above sorcs with current capstone enhancements.

PM's get +2 DC to enchantment in vamp form or +1 DC to necro in lich form on top of the stat boost that comes with the form.

Of course, you know I want Wizards to be able to be Savants and Sorcs to be PM / AMs right?

;-)

... a man can dream ...

[Aashrym]

Are you implying a drow sorc should use Yugo pots and drop their fort that low but a drow AM should not, then comparing the two? Or are you calculating the sorc without Yugo as well?

AM's also get +2 DC to one school and +1 DC to a secondary school on top of the +1 DC to all schools from capstone, putting them +3 DC in one school and +2 DC in a secondary one above sorcs with current capstone enhancements.

PM's get +2 DC to enchantment in vamp form or +1 DC to necro in lich form on top of the stat boost that comes with the form.

I wouldn`t touch the vamp form DC bonus and stick with lich. The vulnerability to light damage can be outright nasty sometimes and I can settle for slightly less enchantment with more necro in a more durable in lich form.

I think the end result still points to 1-3 difference roughly but the wizard can afford to 2 schools instead of 1 as well.

EDIT: Now I`m tired and adding more CHA and INT for yugo pots than I should. Doh! Edited out.

[Requiro]

Something that has annoyed me for a long time is that Sorcs don't get +2 charisma from their capstone. This is also true of Clerics. Both Cleric and Sorc Capstones are 1 dimensional were as Wizards get +2 Int and -1 to all metamagic costs, FvS get +2 cha as well as their SLA, and Bards get a Capstone that makes Caster Bards, even better than Sorcerers, Giving them +2 Cha +2 Spell Pen and +2 to spell DCs The only thing that would keep a CC Sorc better than an equivalently geared and feated bard is the fact that Sorcs get MHM.

Please give those Sorcs (and Clerics) who want to crowd control a little love and add +2 cha (or wis) to their Capstones.

P.S. I do think that bards should get a Melee Capstone but make your own suggestion thread for it!

/Signed for +2 Wis (Cleric) and +2 Cha (Sorcerer).

Both get less useful capstone.

[Sarisa]

I like and use DI a good bit, in more places than just Abbot and the VoD entranceway. It's a powerful ability, but it's not something that I would truly miss if I splashed. I do agree that it is just not enough when compared to other far better capstones (FvS Sovereign Host, Barbarian, Paladin, Wizard).

I could get behind anything to increase Cleric DC's. When comparing Wizards to Sorcs, by the enhancements and the inbuilt abilities to the class, Wizards are intended to be DC based casters, while Sorcs can have good DC's but specialize more in damage (mostly via saveless spells). It's much easier for a Wizard to get high DC's than a Sorc, and it gives a bit more distinction to the classes.

Clerics and FvS's, however, have no major distinction between DC caster and nuker. PnP Clerics are far more powerful than PnP FvS's, even with the true flight, but DDO doesn't have the things that make Clerics powerful. There aren't enough useful spells outside of level 6 and possibly 8 to have the Clerics's versatility really matter much. There are no domains to give Clerics a boost in versatility or power. FvS's just have so many more survival options, and with (nearly) identical builds and equipment, only have (I believe) 1 less wisdom potential. FvS's Angel of Vengeance essentially gives them +2 to their DC's in addition to boosting their primary spell damage.

This essentially makes FvS's both DC casters AND nukers at once, which is totally unlike what Sorcs and Wizards face.

Regarding Sorcs, I like the +1 Evocation and Conjuration DC boosts. It fits with the nuking aspect (more likely to have full damage from save based blasts), and doesn't allow Sorcs to step too close to the Wizards speciality.

* Disclaimer: Yes, my main is a Cleric. One of my alts is currently a Wizard, and I'm going to take a Sorc life before ending as FvS. I do have a strong interest in both divine classes, and want BOTH to be viable in different roles.

[Aelonwy]

I could support a +2 Charisma capstone as a choice for sorcs, an either or option like the choice given Rogues.
I would definitely drool over a better +2 Wisdom option given clerics, cause their current capstone seems cruddy.
I think Rangers need Capstone options too, the one they have now only really affects those that focus on ranged fighting.

[Aashrym]

Of course, you know I want Wizards to be able to be Savants and Sorcs to be PM / AMs right?

;-)

... a man can dream ...

I think mix and matching PRE`s thru different classes might lead to someone finding a new way to abuse the rules. It would certainly change some build ideas. I think I personally prefer it more simplified like we do now tho. DDO has a lot of options for character building compared to any other games I`ve played online. Too much can break things.

You do not have Aashrym`s seal of approval to build pun pun.