Add +2 Cha to Sorc Capstone

[Aashrym]

Strange as I was reading through this thread I was thinking the same thing.

I can make a list of everything I want but it might not be within the forum guidelines.

[licho]

As i read the topic i got to conclusion that the next logical step should be adding a wizard capstone which will increase casting speed of the class and add from 500 to 1000 sp. Maybe as separate capstone, but im fine with just add.

There is clearly a lot of people whose playstyle will benefit from extra speed and more sp.
I see no point why there shouldnt be option for them who like spaming spells.
IMO wizard speed and spell pool should be AT LEAST as high as sorcerer one.

This change will make my playing wizard even more fun.

[Havok.cry]

I would happily trade my wizards capstone for your sorcs!

[TheDearLeader]

As i read the topic i got to conclusion that the next logical step should be adding a wizard capstone which will increase casting speed of the class and add from 500 to 1000 sp. Maybe as separate capstone, but im fine with just add.

There is clearly a lot of people whose playstyle will benefit from extra speed and more sp.
I see no point why there shouldnt be option for them who like spaming spells.
IMO wizard speed and spell pool should be AT LEAST as high as sorcerer one.

This change will make my playing wizard even more fun.

If the Wizard Capstone was *only* +2 Int, I'd be inclined to agree with the above and obvious sarcasm.

Wizards get Higher DCs through Five (5) additional Metamagic Feats, they get spells earlier than Sorcs, they get more spell slots than Sorcs, and they also get the ability to change their spells, at will, provided they are in a tavern or at a Shrine. Sorcs, in turn, gain a higher SP pool, and a faster casting animations/cooldowns.

Summation: By class abilities alone, sans enhancements, Wizards/Sorcs have a sense of balance.

These facts in mind, we go to looking at the enhancements. Both Pale Master and Archmage PrEs are rather tasty. Both have Spammable SLAs (which you can choose to take/not to take based on personal preference, in case of Archmage), both have the capability of increasing your DCs in a couple spell schools by a couple points. Pale Master has the ability to partially change into an Undead form, which amplifies your stats in some way, as well as bestowing fortification. You can become a self-healing fleshie, further amplified by the more Pale Masters you have in party.

Summation : Top it off with a Capstone that is +2 Int, and cheapens your casting, and you're looking at High DCs, Cheap SLAs, Cheap regular spells, and a versatility that a Sorcerer can't hope to match.

Meanwhile, Sorc PrEs: Very nice. Yes, increased damage is *good*. Inherent Elemental Resist is so-so. Cursing an enemy for extra elemental damage is cheap, but the cooldown prohibits practical use outside of boss battles. Tier III SLAs look cool, but Water/Fire's Tier III is on such a long cooldown so as to be rather useless, and Air's Tier III is utility rather than DPS. While Savants rely on damage spells, many damage spells are DC-based, and the PrE itself does little to enhance spell DCs, even in Evocation/Conjuration (which it requires a feat, Savant does not bestow such a benefit itself). Savants also have SLAs throughout their III tiers of existence, but there are met with varying degrees of Meh. While cheap, all but I think two? are DC-based, meaning the enemies have a fair chance of saving for half or no damage. While not so pronounced while leveling, obvious suddenly at the higher levels/difficulties.

Summation : The Sorc Capstone is thematically appropriate for what they seem to desire a Sorc to be, that is to say a one-trick pony. Less Spell slots, DPS-based PrEs, etc. However, taking in mind the Sorcerer's 5 lesser feats, and PrEs that do not boost Evocation/Conjuration DCs, Wizards can actually perform better at the party's DPS role, as well, any time a save comes into play.

What I've seen here is that people are wary of giving Sorcerers a Charisma boost, although to equal a Wizard in the DC game alone (not to mention their other, listed advantages), a Sorcerer needs multiple past lives. I'm not sure why +1 to all spell DCs is bad, considering an Archmage would have roughly +5 to one school, +3 to a secondary, and +1 to all others, or when a Pale Master in Lich form would have +2 to all schools, +3 to Necromancy DCs, and +40 HP.

Even with +2 Charisma, Sorcs would still be behind in the DC game.

But... I provide an alternative. It isn't actually a new suggestion.

Sorc Capstone, Old:

Sorcerer Bloodline of Power: All of your damage dealing spells that are capable of being empowered deal 20% more damage.

Sorc Capstone, New:

Sorcerer Bloodline of Power: All of your damage dealing spells that are capable of being empowered deal 20% more damage, and you receive a +1 Bonus to all your Evocation and Conjuration spells.

More powerful than it is now, and thematically appropriate to a "master blaster caster", while also less powerful than a +2 Charisma boost.

[Dragaer]

...and cheapens your casting...Cheap regular spells,

You keep loosing me here. -1 spell cost on all meta's hardly means cheap regular spells; you are overemphasizing this quite a bit, and over and over again. Over the life of a blue bar this may mean another 40 or so SP. Hardly overpowering or giving a huge advantage to wizards.

If you would stop making this such a big deal it would be easier to read the rest of your argument, which is very one sided toward Sorc (which I understand because you have one and want it stronger). Just don't try to pretend you are being fair to the wizzies when you present their side of it.

Sorcs are much better at DPS than Wizards, Wizards are better than Sorcs at DC based spells. Wow..shocking. I apologize if that offends you.

You speak of cooldowns - Wizards (PM's specifically) were hit the hardist. They can't spam their instakills (I like this change, even though it slows me down quite a bit. PMs are still very powerful), where sorcs can spam. And a spamming sorc may not kill the initial mobs as fast in the begining of an engagement, they can keep going on to the next mobs while the PM's must wait for their cooldowns. This is a continuation of the class balance, and a good thing.

You ask why people are wary of giving +2 CHA to sorcs? For me it is because people are acting like the Sorcs are at such a disadvantage when they are a very powerful class. Whining "woe is me" as a fact in their argument turns me off.

Now on to your last suggestion. I would have no problem with that. It isn't a +1 one to everything (as a +2 CHA would give).

[TheDearLeader]

You keep loosing me here. -1 spell cost on all meta's hardly means cheap regular spells; you are overemphasizing this quite a bit, and over and over again. Over the life of a blue bar this may mean another 40 or so SP. Hardly overpowering or giving a huge advantage to wizards.

Nevertheless, it is an added advantage to the Wizard based upon their capstone. If it seems like I am overemphasizing, it is because so many others are under-emphasizing, or neglecting to note it completely.

If you would stop making this such a big deal it would be easier to read the rest of your argument, which is very one sided toward Sorc (which I understand because you have one and want it stronger). Just don't try to pretend you are being fair to the wizzies when you present their side of it.

And you have a Wizard. Don't pretend you're being fair to the Sorcs when you hear their side of it?

Sorcs are much better at DPS than Wizards, Wizards are better than Sorcs at DC based spells. Wow..shocking. I apologize if that offends you.

Notice the word "Much". Then notice when you say Wizards are better at Sorcs with respect to DCs, you don't say "Much". Under-emphasize your advantage, while overemphasizing ours. Hmmm...

You speak of cooldowns - Wizards (PM's specifically) were hit the hardist. They can't spam their instakills (I like this change, even though it slows me down quite a bit. PMs are still very powerful), where sorcs can spam. And a spamming sorc may not kill the initial mobs as fast in the begining of an engagement, they can keep going on to the next mobs while the PM's must wait for their cooldowns. This is a continuation of the class balance, and a good thing.

So rather than Wail/Finger/Wail, it's Wail/Finger/Banish/Circle of Death/Wail? Oh gee, I feel so bad for you, with all your extra spell slots and ability to adapt them at will...

You ask why people are wary of giving +2 CHA to sorcs? For me it is because people are acting like the Sorcs are at such a disadvantage when they are a very powerful class. Whining "woe is me" as a fact in their argument turns me off.

Now on to your last suggestion. I would have no problem with that. It isn't a +1 one to everything (as a +2 CHA would give).

Sorcs are still at the disadvantage. Do I like playing mine? Sure. But that's as much gear, and playstyle as much as anything else. I prefer to play him with a Wizard in the party. I can do stuff that costs SP, but has similar costs (such as resists/blur/GH), and then move on to playing a DPS role, while the Wizard can be the Insta-killer/controller.

But my Sorc being the solo arcane through eDA? I'd rather play my Bard.

[Dragaer]

Add "much" to the wizzie's DC, that was me trying to type fast as I peruse the forums at work (for shame!). As to being fair (or biased), you don't see me trying to say that wizards need more for their capstone do you? Just pointing things out.

The interweb is a funny place. People (not all the time) fail to make arguments based on facts or they twist the argument to make make another point completely and somehow try to tie it into the original discussion. When told that their argument lacks these things they get personal, or they try to write as if they were smarter than they really are.

Now back to the original topic: And as many here have pointed out, the Sorc capstone is one of the stronger ones in the game and hardly needs adjusting. If anything it showed that some other classes might need a look (those poor clanky clerics). And if it makes you feel better, I agree that the Wizard capstone is also very strong. But it is hardly something to say that one arcane is better than the other.

[Rodasch]

My fighter wants +2 strength, my pally +2 to charisma or +2 to strength, my rogue +2 strength or +2 to dexterity, my ranger +2 to strength or +2 dexterity, etc... So you say you want +2 cha on your sorc that already gets a nice boost on spell dps. The cleric one in my opinion is not so great, but that is another story.

Heck, I think you should get them.

[Rodasch]

But... I provide an alternative. It isn't actually a new suggestion.

Sorc Capstone, Old:

Sorc Capstone, New:


More powerful than it is now, and thematically appropriate to a "master blaster caster", while also less powerful than a +2 Charisma boost.

This I like. I'd get behind that for sure instead of the +2 Cha if it made people feel more fuzzy about it.

[Aashrym]

This I like. I'd get behind that for sure instead of the +2 Cha if it made people feel more fuzzy about it.

I do not think players want the better DC for direct damage spells.

The comparison a bit lopsided anyway, considering the instant death spells are normally a fort save compared to damage spells which are normally reflex or no save. We are not seeing wizards taking feats for conjuration or evocation focus except as a forced requirement for archmage SLAs.

When savant came out players were complaining that the feat requirement was a wasted feat because they did not need that for damage spells.

The wizard capstone is still only worth 1 more DC than any other caster out there. It is used for spells with a higher casting cost and slower casting speed to start with; enchantments and necromancy normally.

The sorc capstone is a substantial damage bonus to spells the do not have the same DC requirements to be effective normally. These spells are cheaper to cast, and faster to cast.

I am just not seeing any need. The bonus to evocations and conjurations might be more appropriate but I doubt that is what players looking for higher DCs want. Just saying.

[Rodasch]

I am just not seeing any need. The bonus to evocations and conjurations might be more appropriate but I doubt that is what players looking for higher DCs want. Just saying.

The fact that I'm one of the players looking for higher DC's, and I want the bonus to evocation and conjuration kinda makes that last supposition ironic.

Sure, I wouldn't refuse the DC boost to enchant and necromancy schools given by the +2 cha (nor would I decline the boost to UMD, Haggle, Diplo, Intim, etc that came from the increase, or the extra SP) But if we had to settle on a lesser boost to receive it, I'd settle for the evoc and conj one, since that's where I really would get the most use out of it. Niac's SLA is like an extra polar ray when it doesn't get saved, but like wasted effort when it does get saved. If I can increase the success rate of that one SLA I've gained a great deal. That doesn't even account for the other two SLA's or my normal barrage of spells. Web is also conjuration and would be boosted by the addition of that bonus, giving sorcs a boost to at least one form of CC from their capstone. This would be a good thing for sorcs, and better because it would be a "free" addition to a capstone we're already taking.

[Aashrym]

The fact that I'm one of the players looking for higher DC's, and I want the bonus to evocation and conjuration kinda makes that last supposition ironic.

Sure, I wouldn't refuse the DC boost to enchant and necromancy schools given by the +2 cha (nor would I decline the boost to UMD, Haggle, Diplo, Intim, etc that came from the increase, or the extra SP) But if we had to settle on a lesser boost to receive it, I'd settle for the evoc and conj one, since that's where I really would get the most use out of it. Niac's SLA is like an extra polar ray when it doesn't get saved, but like wasted effort when it does get saved. If I can increase the success rate of that one SLA I've gained a great deal. That doesn't even account for the other two SLA's or my normal barrage of spells. Web is also conjuration and would be boosted by the addition of that bonus, giving sorcs a boost to at least one form of CC from their capstone. This would be a good thing for sorcs, and better because it would be a "free" addition to a capstone we're already taking.

Limited to those schools does not sound so bad and does fit the theme. I think it is a better suggestion than flat bonuses to DCs, definitely. I was just pointing out that I am not sure that is what a lot of sorcs had in mind.

[Bilger]

The fact that I'm one of the players looking for higher DC's, and I want the bonus to evocation and conjuration kinda makes that last supposition ironic.

Sure, I wouldn't refuse the DC boost to enchant and necromancy schools given by the +2 cha (nor would I decline the boost to UMD, Haggle, Diplo, Intim, etc that came from the increase, or the extra SP) But if we had to settle on a lesser boost to receive it, I'd settle for the evoc and conj one, since that's where I really would get the most use out of it. Niac's SLA is like an extra polar ray when it doesn't get saved, but like wasted effort when it does get saved. If I can increase the success rate of that one SLA I've gained a great deal. That doesn't even account for the other two SLA's or my normal barrage of spells. Web is also conjuration and would be boosted by the addition of that bonus, giving sorcs a boost to at least one form of CC from their capstone. This would be a good thing for sorcs, and better because it would be a "free" addition to a capstone we're already taking.

As others have stated sorcs are dps casters and always have been a sorc power is innate and destructive making them the dps types.

A wizards power comes from study and research which gives there spells more chance to land and is done through pure study and ability to use (intelligence).

Wizards in pnp and in ddo are not as powerful as sorcs and sorcs aren't as able to land spells as easy as wizards due to where power comes from inately.

Sorcs are supposed to be the wild childs throwing spells wildly and with a certain lack of control that only wizards get through years of study.

I know you prob realize this so a sorcs dc should be lower than a wizards by far.

As to the reason for this thread the capstones make complete sense along the pnp lines of thought.

Sorcs are meant for dps and wizards dc based spells and I believe turbine has done a great job of splitting them like they should be.

If want a cc character roll a bard or wiz sorcs where never meant to be great at it.

Not saying they can't be but there aren't meant to be as stated in pnp.

I know this is ddo and not pnp but they do try to stick to some of basics of pnp and I know they stray all the time from the rules.

Isn't that all DM's right to do so and a good dm will do so or it usually is a very boring dm.

Like it or not Turbine is your DM and the capstones IMO for wiz and sorc are fine.

Others maybe not as much like clerics but wiz and sorc I believe they did a good job for.

[Rodasch]

As others have stated sorcs are dps casters and always have been a sorc power is innate and destructive making them the dps types.

A wizards power comes from study and research which gives there spells more chance to land and is done through pure study and ability to use (intelligence).

Wizards in pnp and in ddo are not as powerful as sorcs and sorcs aren't as able to land spells as easy as wizards due to where power comes from inately.

Sorcs are supposed to be the wild childs throwing spells wildly and with a certain lack of control that only wizards get through years of study.

I know you prob realize this so a sorcs dc should be lower than a wizards by far.

As to the reason for this thread the capstones make complete sense along the pnp lines of thought.

Sorcs are meant for dps and wizards dc based spells and I believe turbine has done a great job of splitting them like they should be.

If want a cc character roll a bard or wiz sorcs where never meant to be great at it.

Not saying they can't be but there aren't meant to be as stated in pnp.

I know this is ddo and not pnp but they do try to stick to some of basics of pnp and I know they stray all the time from the rules.

Isn't that all DM's right to do so and a good dm will do so or it usually is a very boring dm.

Like it or not Turbine is your DM and the capstones IMO for wiz and sorc are fine.

Others maybe not as much like clerics but wiz and sorc I believe they did a good job for.

Hate to break this to you, but in PnP, Wizards have no innate DC bonus over Sorcs whatsoever. DC's are based purely off of spell level + casting stat bonus (with a couple of feats available to both classes which can boost spell dc's, such as spell focus and greater spell focus).

It's only in DDO where the DC gap emerges, thanks to +2 Int on capstone and the +DC effects of PrE's (the DDO implementation of PrC's).

Where Wizards were better than Sorcerers in PnP was in spell selection and diversity, as well as the ability to research new spells, and the bonus metamagic feats. Sorcerers were limited to a certain number of spells of each level and had a hard time changing that spell list. Sorcerers did not cast faster than wizards either, in fact, when casting meta-magic spells, they cast slower. They added cast time for altering the spell.

Where Sorcerers were better than wizards in PnP was in raw spells per day and the ability to cast spontaneously (not have to memorize spells, and no carrying around a big spellbook). They also got slightly better weapon proficiency list (all simple vs the more limited specific selection available to wizards). That's it. There were your big differences.

A CC focused sorcerer actually had the likelihood of being better at it than a wizard due to more casts per day and the ability to cast the spell he needed from his (albeit limited) repertoire instead of the best of what's left of what he has memorized of his (much more expansive) repertoire. But the CC focused sorcerer would not be able to wake up the next day and play artillery with an hours worth or reading the night before, where the wizard could.

[Aashrym]

Hate to break this to you, but in PnP, Wizards have no innate DC bonus over Sorcs whatsoever. DC's are based purely off of spell level + casting stat bonus (with a couple of feats available to both classes which can boost spell dc's, such as spell focus and greater spell focus).

Ironically, bards could get the same spell levels as sorcs and wizzies in PnP plus they did have songs to boost DC`s and songs for free metamagic.

[Rodasch]

Ironically, bards could get the same spell levels as sorcs and wizzies in PnP plus they did have songs to boost DC`s and songs for free metamagic.

What version of PnP are you talking about? In my 3.0 and 3.5 books bard spells end at level 6...

[voodoogroves]

Ironically, bards could get the same spell levels as sorcs and wizzies in PnP plus they did have songs to boost DC`s and songs for free metamagic.

Only if you are talking PRCs (and if you do that, wizards start to creep ahead of Sorcs in the DC department).

At this point though, it's difficult to really compare PNP to DDO for these. Metamagics, prepping spells, etc. are all vastly different.


I don't think my current sorc needs a +2 CHA, but I'd take it like a greedy kid in a candy shop if offered. I just don't feel like Sorcs are behind at all. I'd still rather see a second capstone offered, similar to rogues.
(a) today
(b) +2 CHA, + maybe a boost to Spell Pen

That allows for choice, without a straight up additional boost to Sorcs.

I can think of a number of wizard builds I'd love to swap the capstone INT and metamagic reduction for a DPS increase.

[voodoogroves]

What version of PnP are you talking about? In my 3.0 and 3.5 books bard spells end at level 6...

Sublime Chord PRC (Complete Arcane), Prestige Bard (UA), etc.

[Bilger]

Hate to break this to you, but in PnP, Wizards have no innate DC bonus over Sorcs whatsoever. DC's are based purely off of spell level + casting stat bonus (with a couple of feats available to both classes which can boost spell dc's, such as spell focus and greater spell focus).

It's only in DDO where the DC gap emerges, thanks to +2 Int on capstone and the +DC effects of PrE's (the DDO implementation of PrC's).

Where Wizards were better than Sorcerers in PnP was in spell selection and diversity, as well as the ability to research new spells, and the bonus metamagic feats. Sorcerers were limited to a certain number of spells of each level and had a hard time changing that spell list. Sorcerers did not cast faster than wizards either, in fact, when casting meta-magic spells, they cast slower. They added cast time for altering the spell.

Where Sorcerers were better than wizards in PnP was in raw spells per day and the ability to cast spontaneously (not have to memorize spells, and no carrying around a big spellbook). They also got slightly better weapon proficiency list (all simple vs the more limited specific selection available to wizards). That's it. There were your big differences.

A CC focused sorcerer actually had the likelihood of being better at it than a wizard due to more casts per day and the ability to cast the spell he needed from his (albeit limited) repertoire instead of the best of what's left of what he has memorized of his (much more expansive) repertoire. But the CC focused sorcerer would not be able to wake up the next day and play artillery with an hours worth or reading the night before, where the wizard could.

Thats what studying gets ya more feats = better dc's srry if known had to spell every lil detail for you would of.

Have to remember all forum posters nit pick.

Sorcs cast more spells and ddo gave better sp pool to show that. Sorcs cast more but there spells in pnp and here are balanced in that way so may take a sorc a extra cast to do where a wiz cause of dc can hit easier because they have STUDIED gaining the extra knowledge while doing so.

I didn't think had to attack peoples knowledge totally with the basics understanding of the functionality but if have will do.

There is a dc gap in pnp due to feats if built right also but won't go there should be plain to see.

In pnp they are balanced in ddo to make them balanced they have savants and archmages/palemasters and such to show the differance in classes.

Like a good dm does they change it to fit what they are doing and how the system should work.

They are showing it in the way they choose.

More casts = more damage

Less casts with more study = better success = better dc

Which they have done and the capstones are fine and show what should be shown between classes.

If want the dc's then give wizards the 20% and +2 int and then give sorcs the same with +2 char then we will have what you say pnp was.

Wizards where meant to be the smart tactical ones with fewer casts (higher dc's) where sorcs where innate and had more casts (larger sp) and hit faster and harder and not smarter.

I believe they did a perfect job portraying it with there capstones. IMO

I also believe that some like you and me may interpret it differently but thats how I see it may not be the same as you but all people are different and see things and interpret them different. Just my OP though.

[Rodasch]

Sublime Chord PRC (Complete Arcane), Prestige Bard (UA), etc.

Prestige Classes =/= PHB Core classes, not even when it uses the same name though. I appreciate ya doin the work to find these examples, but if that's what Ash meant when he said they could get as many spell levels as sorcs/wiz, then it's kinda disingenuous.

The problem with Prestige Classes is that you have to actually CHANGE class to them in PnP, not tack them on to your normal base class levelling. A level 20 Archmage in PnP for example would not be Wiz(20) with AP's spent on Archmage. They'd be Wiz(10)/Archmage(10) with some pretty drastic alterations to spell progression, feat acquisition, and abilities. Elemental Savants would be Sorc(10)/Savant(10)...etc. So a Sublime Chord PrC would not be a Bard getting those spells, but would be getting those spells despite having been a bard prior to the PrC. The Prestige Bard would be used only in a world where Bards are Not allowed as a base class and must be earned as a prestige class, so by nature they must be more "powerful" in some ways, but come with Prerequisites you must meet to even change into the class. That class is an optional variant.

If we want to go there, we open up a thousand more huge cans of worms for every class...I could go on and on about optional variant stuff for sorcs and wizards in UA and Complete Arcane that I'd like to have, or even stuff in the PHB and DMG.