Add +2 Cha to Sorc Capstone

[Dragaer]

Since classes are balanced by all of their abilities, comparing the sum of their abilities WITH capstone is the logical way to 'balance' a class. Comparing the abilities in a vacuum is disingenious.

I agree - which is why you can't just say what some classes get at "20" as someone on here was trying to do. And to do that it would have to be an exhaustive class by class comparison. Saying that "some classes get this at 20 and sorcs don't" is laying the foundation of a bad argument.

[stille_nacht]

I've never ran the numbers but I've always suspected the capstone didn't work as it read. I don't notice a large difference between my Sorcerer's Spell damage and my wizards. *sometimes it feels like no difference at all to me*

take the savant prestige line. any one of them, might help

a fully specced, equally geared ice savant should NEVER be doing only as much as a wizard, or you are doing your sorc wrong :/

[Tirisha]

take the savant prestige line. any one of them, might help

a fully specced, equally geared ice savant should NEVER be doing only as much as a wizard, or you are doing your sorc wrong :/

lol you mean I picked the wrong line. Fire Savant for reasons of well, coolness (does less DPS then my Wizard against most everything 100 dps lose from niac's sucks). But my statement was not relative to the pre, so as to not confuse the capstones impact on the sorc with the Pres impact on the sorc which is another discussion.

[Rodasch]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=sorc+capstone

/signed

[Paleus]

/not signed

Although it should be fairly obvious it does bear stating: Sorcerers are not wizards. Giving sorcerers a +2 to the capstone is being asked for most likely to close the DC gap. Should we also give wizards more spell points to close the spell point gap? The two classes have different bonuses and minuses, because they are different classes and we should not try to make them equivalent. If you want to play an arcane caster with high DCs then you probably should play a wizard (side note you can get high DCs on a sorcerer).

Also, +20% is a nice capstone.

[Tirisha]

/not signed

Although it should be fairly obvious it does bear stating: Sorcerers are not wizards. Giving sorcerers a +2 to the capstone is being asked for most likely to close the DC gap. Should we also give wizards more spell points to close the spell point gap? The two classes have different bonuses and minuses, because they are different classes and we should not try to make them equivalent. If you want to play an arcane caster with high DCs then you probably should play a wizard (side note you can get high DCs on a sorcerer).

Also, +20% is a nice capstone.

I don't know why people think Sorcerers should be excluded from good DC casting. I believe the Differences between the 2 classes are balanced enough without the DC gap.

DC casting on a sorcerer should be a good viable Build option imo.

[NaturalHazard]

Bards get a Capstone that makes Caster Bards, even better than Sorcerers, Giving them +2 Cha +2 Spell Pen and +2 to spell DCs The only thing that would keep a CC Sorc better than an equivalently geared and feated bard is the fact that Sorcs get MHM.

!

lol bards only get 6 spell levels, and they only get single target holds and the now nerfed no extend disco ball. Bards get much lower sp, and they have greater shout as their best damage spell. What do sorcs get for damage spells? a lot of different potent things, as well as the savant stuff. Yeah a caster bard might be marginally better than a sorc at some crowd control but its heavily limmited and thats pretty much all they can do offesively with their spells, besides the greater shout.

[NaturalHazard]

Can rangers have 20% damage to attacks please?


/sarcasm off.

[licho]

I don't know why people think Sorcerers should be excluded from good DC casting. I believe the Differences between the 2 classes are balanced enough without the DC gap.

DC casting on a sorcerer should be a good viable Build option imo.

The people thinks that way probably becouse the main reason to go wizard is better DC.
Once Sorcerer DC will be only slightly worse than wiz, there will be clear winer.

Not saying there is anything bad with this, having to choose can be hard, and bring sorrow of lost possibilites.

[redspecter23]

It may have been mentioned already but I would have no problem with adding a second sorcerer capstone that gives +2 cha and maybe some other small bonus (+2 stacking bonus to all cha skills?) that one could take in place of the 20% damage increase. At the same time a second wizard capstone that is +10% stacking spell damage with a small bonus tacked on could be added as well.

So there would be some overlap between the two. The DC gap is closed a bit, but at the cost of the sorc damage, while the wizard could choose to increase damage at the cost of their higher DC's but not to the extent that a sorc could.

[Aashrym]

Not signed. The capstone is pretty good as is and became better after taking the spells pass and addition of savants into consideration.

The DC was only marginally higher with the capstone for a wizard in the first place. IE It is not the +2 to caster stat that gives wizards the higher DC in the first place and trying to use the capstone to close a gap created by PREs is not the way to approach any concerns. Posters who do not want to consider savants when considering the capstone should not be taking the wizard PREs into consideration looking at spell DCs.

Wait and see if the next sorc PRE does include DC benefits and that gap will close just as it increased with the wizard PRE DC benefits. I think that a DC based PRE would make a better avenue for a sorc to pursue than the capstone, which is actually decent.

Cleric and FvS capstones could both use some work. Cleric is weak and FvS dependent on choice with a stat bonus that does little for the character.

[Tirisha]

The people thinks that way probably becouse the main reason to go wizard is better DC.
Once Sorcerer DC will be only slightly worse than wiz, there will be clear winer.

Not saying there is anything bad with this, having to choose can be hard, and bring sorrow of lost possibilites.

I go Wizard for 5 metamagic feats personally. I'd have both even if Sorcerers could obtain the same DCs. Not to mention PM which allows self healing to people who don't like playing robots.

[Tirisha]

Not signed. The capstone is pretty good as is and became better after taking the spells pass and addition of savants into consideration.

The DC was only marginally higher with the capstone for a wizard in the first place. IE It is not the +2 to caster stat that gives wizards the higher DC in the first place and trying to use the capstone to close a gap created by PREs is not the way to approach any concerns. Posters who do not want to consider savants when considering the capstone should not be taking the wizard PREs into consideration looking at spell DCs.

Wait and see if the next sorc PRE does include DC benefits and that gap will close just as it increased with the wizard PRE DC benefits. I think that a DC based PRE would make a better avenue for a sorc to pursue than the capstone, which is actually decent.

Cleric and FvS capstones could both use some work. Cleric is weak and FvS dependent on choice with a stat bonus that does little for the character.

I'm interested in what what said about the 20% only equating to 8%, not sure about it personally but my gut tells me the capstone doesn't give what it says. Edit for Clarity: I was excluding pres from my assessment *gut feeling* because it is necessary in placing a value *albeit gut value* on the capstone itself.

The next and only other announced sorc pre: *acolyte of the skin* would be extremely surprising if it increases DCs. Even then I'd want a Capstone to go with it to make my obtainable DC at least as high as my wizards.

[Aashrym]

I'm interested in what what said about the 20% only equating to 8%, not sure about it personally but my gut tells me the capstone doesn't give what it says. Edit for Clarity: I was excluding pres from my assessment *gut feeling* because it is necessary in placing a value *albeit gut value* on the capstone itself.

The next and only other announced sorc pre: *acolyte of the skin* would be extremely surprising if it increases DCs. Even then I'd want a Capstone to go with it to make my obtainable DC at least as high as my wizards.

20% of a base or 8% of a total is just the difference in how it stacks with other effects. Cheaper costs, faster casting, more no save spells (edit: referring to damage spells vs CC or instant death), lack of spell penetration checks on damage spells, and savants while looking at a high base still makes it a decent capstone. How it should stack would require a dev comment unless someone has a quote to link.

On your edit, given just the capstone and no PREs then a wizard capstone does nothing but give 1 more DC and a bit more leeway with SP that still would not match sorc SP. Give them both 1 more DC and then keep the damage bonus and there is a lot less reason to consider a wizard. Right now sorcs are in a good spot as damage casters.

Acolyte of the Skin I am not entirely sure how it will be implemented. Even without using it as a DC PRE I would be more inclined to suggest a DC based PRE for sorc instead of a capstone change.

I do not under stand why a sorc should get a DC 'at least as high as wizards'. The wizard advantage is a higher DC, more feats, and more spells slots with easier swapping. The main advantages are the feats and higher DC. Sorcs still have caster level bonuses, cheaper damage spells, more damage, shorter cooldowns, and a bigger SP pool. Giving a sorc equivalent or higher DCs just moves the preferred caster back to sorc over wizzie again. I think the balance (edit: between sorc and wizzie) is nice now with the spell pass.

If there were to be a suggestion to add a DC PRE for sorcs who want to focus that way I would be more inclined to sign that as opposed to giving more benefits to savants. To me that makes much more sense, and I am smart just ask me.

[R0cksteady]

Wizards get higher DCs
Sorcs get much higher damage

Why would they change the capstone to give sorcs a higher DC? The capstone is fine as is.

[TheDearLeader]

Wizards get higher DCs and cheaper casting costs
Sorcs get much higher damage

Why would they change the capstone to give sorcs a higher DC? The capstone is fine as is.

You missed something there bro. I added it in red.

[Tirisha]

20% of a base or 8% of a total is just the difference in how it stacks with other effects. Cheaper costs, faster casting, more no save spells (edit: referring to damage spells vs CC or instant death), lack of spell penetration checks on damage spells, and savants while looking at a high base still makes it a decent capstone. How it should stack would require a dev comment unless someone has a quote to link.

On your edit, given just the capstone and no PREs then a wizard capstone does nothing but give 1 more DC and a bit more leeway with SP that still would not match sorc SP. Give them both 1 more DC and then keep the damage bonus and there is a lot less reason to consider a wizard. Right now sorcs are in a good spot as damage casters.

Acolyte of the Skin I am not entirely sure how it will be implemented. Even without using it as a DC PRE I would be more inclined to suggest a DC based PRE for sorc instead of a capstone change.

I do not under stand why a sorc should get a DC 'at least as high as wizards'. The wizard advantage is a higher DC, more feats, and more spells slots with easier swapping. The main advantages are the feats and higher DC. Sorcs still have caster level bonuses, cheaper damage spells, more damage, shorter cooldowns, and a bigger SP pool. Giving a sorc equivalent or higher DCs just moves the preferred caster back to sorc over wizzie again. I think the balance (edit: between sorc and wizzie) is nice now with the spell pass.

If there were to be a suggestion to add a DC PRE for sorcs who want to focus that way I would be more inclined to sign that as opposed to giving more benefits to savants. To me that makes much more sense, and I am smart just ask me.

First you should understand that in my previous post I was more inclined to making a separate Capstone with some other added benefit to allow a choice between DPS casting and DC casting for sorcs. with that in mind:


I don't understand why people think DCs should be the Wizards advantage. I also don't really see the difference in wanting a capstone that helps with DC casting and wanting a pre that helps with DC casting *I'd like both personally* they are both enhancements. I don't know what kind of context you took out of what I said, but: All I was trying to saying is adding a capstone with Cha would be a step in the right direction for me and the way I'd like to play my Sorc.

If DCs were the same I'd argue there would be very good reasons to play both classes though perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.

[vorpel]

While I'd like the DCs on my sorcs to be higher, the real difference to me between my Wizard and my Sorcs is the casting speed. After playing a sorc for two years I tried a wizard... Way too slow unless you keep quicken on all the time then your mana goes way too fast.

I agree that a separate capstone for Sorcs or a DC based pre would be great to have.

[Aashrym]

First you should understand that in my previous post I was more inclined to making a separate Capstone with some other added benefit to allow a choice between DPS casting and DC casting for sorcs. with that in mind:


I don't understand why people think DCs should be the Wizards advantage. I also don't really see the difference in wanting a capstone that helps with DC casting and wanting a pre that helps with DC casting *I'd like both personally* they are both enhancements. I don't know what kind of context you took out of what I said, but: All I was trying to saying is adding a capstone with Cha would be a step in the right direction for me and the way I'd like to play my Sorc.

If DCs were the same I'd argue there would be very good reasons to play both classes though perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.

A separate capstone might not be that bad but I am cautious. In addition to the current capstone I do not agree with, definitely.

People think DC is the wizards advantage because Turbine gave that advantage to wizards. They do need to have some kind of advantage over simply having more feats. This helps differentiate the classes more and keep them competitive with each other. Before PREs sorcs were the popular caster choice because of SP pool, casting speed, cool down timers, and the fact that only certain spells and feats were required and attainable on the sorc.

The capstone pointed the sorc towards damage and the wiz towards the higher DC and the PREs continued in that direction. It seems clear that sorcs are meant to be more damage and wizard are meant to have higher effectiveness in save vs effect spells by design.

Give those DCs to a sorc and we are back to the sorc choosing the best spells and feats and having the best DCs too, leaving wizards as a less desirable option. Giving savants the damage they can get with the DCs wizards can get might be something some players want but I think it is a bad idea.

Giving sorcs an option for fast casting with DC bonus, higher SP pool, and still have a damage bonus capstone without the savant bonuses might be worth considering as an alternative. That might be more what you and other sorcs might be looking for. I would not sign that either without seeing it first, but I would look at any suggestion and I see less issues with the concept.

Taking a caster and giving it the best offensive advantages among casters (casting speed, damage bonuses, and DCs) seems like too much. If it is something you would enjoy playing it is still something I would vote no on. I would ask why would anyone play a wizard in that case but this game has been there and done that when we saw that feats alone and spell swapping were not enough.

After the spell pass I would tend to say play a wizard for DCs and a sorc for damage. The spells are all the same.

[Emili]

My fighter wants +2 strength, my pally +2 to charisma or +2 to strength, my rogue +2 strength or +2 to dexterity, my ranger +2 to strength or +2 dexterity, etc... So you say you want +2 cha on your sorc that already gets a nice boost on spell dps. The cleric one in my opinion is not so great, but that is another story.

Strange as I was reading through this thread I was thinking the same thing.