(Somewhat) de-nerf vorpal.

[KoboldKiller]

Vorpal should do exactly what it's supposed to do, KILL ON A 20.

Removing this was a joke and just further degrades what this game was SUPPOSED to be based on.

[voodoogroves]

A vorpal is supposed to be a ultimate melee weapon and instantly kill mobs on a natural 20 same as a fod or similar spells are the ultimate caster kill spells.
Yes vorpals in PnP are supposed to be rare. But magic, high level casters and high level spells are supposed to be rare as well. This obviously cannot be translated in a MMO (although I think they tried it in the Star Wars MMO with the Jedi class).

"The HP limit exists mostly because blanket epic DW was removed."

When they removed that blanket epic DW they didn't add a hp threashold to the fod, wail, destructions and co spells.
Something like: if mob has >1khp it takes only 100dmg instead of being instantly killed by your fod.
Because otherwise these instant kill spells would unbalance the game too much.

So why is a type of classes unfairly nerfed while it seems perfectly acceptable now for some others to be able to instant kills mobs in epics? (And they don't need to wait to roll a 20; they kill the mob before he had time to do anything and from far to make it even safer so it's actually far more powerfull than vorpal weapons unnerfed)

i.e. The threashold should simply be removed for vorpals as it wouldn't unbalance more the overall epic quests.
If developpers think it makes it too powerfull (in the sense that for casters they at least need to reach a certain DC to make it work) they can instead slightly increase the AC of the trash mobs (as the vorpal applies only if it is confirmed by a normal hit)

That way this weapon does what it's supposed to do but only for good builds will it actually be effective (the ones with high enough to-hit values same as instant kill spells are effective only on casters with DC of 36+)

AC of trash mobs in epics could be around what is needed for a melee to hit them on a 2+ only if they have "weapon+5" and "+20 base to hit" (what ftg/barb, etc level 20 have) and a attribute (Str/Dex/Cha whatever they use to add to their to-hit value) >38
That would make it a bit more likely that someone with vorpals+1/2 fail to instant kill on a 20 especially if they are not pure melees classes (some splashes or rogues/cleric/whatever) or don't have enough points in their to-hit attributes. (Same as a mob more likely to resist a caster fod if his DC is between 36 and 41)

To be fair, they put in the cap because they wanted to somehow control zero-opportunity cost instakills.

I think what we're seeing is the cost of swinging vs. the cost of casting a spell was erroneously estimated.

[Battlehawke]

Easy fix....

Every living thing with a head, that needs a head, gets 4d6 damage on every hit with a vorpal. On a confirmed 20, it gets an extra 100 damage. It's not the vorpal that we know and love, but at least usable again and along the lines of the others...

[Raithe]

That way this weapon does what it's supposed to do but only for good builds will it actually be effective (the ones with high enough to-hit values same as instant kill spells are effective only on casters with DC of 36+)

1) Powerword Kill is just as effective on a 30 DC caster as it is on a 48 DC caster, given equal levels of spell penetration.

2) The problem with removing the cap for vorpals is that it greatly favors those with higher attack (and doublestrike) rates over those who do more damage per strike. If you typically do 50 damage per strike with a weapon and use vorpals against a 4000-hp mob, your damage per strike will increase by over 150 points. Class features simply become irrelevant in such a situation (even Assassin 3) because the vorpal effect is delivering far more damage than any other bonus could. TWF would rule, THF would become entirely obsolete.

However, vorpal in its current form has become useless in comparison to craftable items. Since most players likely to pull a vorpal are probably very likely to be able to craft better, the weapon prefix really has no purpose in the game right now.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing... just an observation.

[suszterpatt]

A vorpal is supposed to be a ultimate melee weapon and instantly kill mobs on a natural 20 same as a fod or similar spells are the ultimate caster kill spells.
Yes vorpals in PnP are supposed to be rare. But magic, high level casters and high level spells are supposed to be rare as well. This obviously cannot be translated in a MMO (although I think they tried it in the Star Wars MMO with the Jedi class).

"The HP limit exists mostly because blanket epic DW was removed."

When they removed that blanket epic DW they didn't add a hp threashold to the fod, wail, destructions and co spells.
Something like: if mob has >1khp it takes only 100dmg instead of being instantly killed by your fod.
Because otherwise these instant kill spells would unbalance the game too much.

So why is a type of classes unfairly nerfed while it seems perfectly acceptable now for some others to be able to instant kills mobs in epics? (And they don't need to wait to roll a 20; they kill the mob before he had time to do anything and from far to make it even safer so it's actually far more powerfull than vorpal weapons unnerfed)

i.e. The threashold should simply be removed for vorpals as it wouldn't unbalance more the overall epic quests.
If developpers think it makes it too powerfull (in the sense that for casters they at least need to reach a certain DC to make it work) they can instead slightly increase the AC of the trash mobs (as the vorpal applies only if it is confirmed by a normal hit)

That way this weapon does what it's supposed to do but only for good builds will it actually be effective (the ones with high enough to-hit values same as instant kill spells are effective only on casters with DC of 36+)

AC of trash mobs in epics could be around what is needed for a melee to hit them on a 2+ only if they have "weapon+5" and "+20 base to hit" (what ftg/barb, etc level 20 have) and a attribute (Str/Dex/Cha whatever they use to add to their to-hit value) >38
That would make it a bit more likely that someone with vorpals+1/2 fail to instant kill on a 20 especially if they are not pure melees classes (some splashes or rogues/cleric/whatever) or don't have enough points in their to-hit attributes. (Same as a mob more likely to resist a caster fod if his DC is between 36 and 41)

Death spells have DCs (except PW:K), SP costs, timers, and material components. All you need for a Vorpal to go off is to confirm the critical. Pretty big difference, but yes, the current implementation did go overboard.

[Emili]

A vorpal is supposed to be a ultimate melee weapon and instantly kill mobs on a natural 20 same as a fod or similar spells are the ultimate caster kill spells.
Yes vorpals in PnP are supposed to be rare. But magic, high level casters and high level spells are supposed to be rare as well. This obviously cannot be translated in a MMO (although I think they tried it in the Star Wars MMO with the Jedi class).

"The HP limit exists mostly because blanket epic DW was removed."

When they removed that blanket epic DW they didn't add a hp threashold to the fod, wail, destructions and co spells.
Something like: if mob has >1khp it takes only 100dmg instead of being instantly killed by your fod.
Because otherwise these instant kill spells would unbalance the game too much.

So why is a type of classes unfairly nerfed while it seems perfectly acceptable now for some others to be able to instant kills mobs in epics? (And they don't need to wait to roll a 20; they kill the mob before he had time to do anything and from far to make it even safer so it's actually far more powerfull than vorpal weapons unnerfed)

i.e. The threashold should simply be removed for vorpals as it wouldn't unbalance more the overall epic quests.
If developpers think it makes it too powerfull (in the sense that for casters they at least need to reach a certain DC to make it work) they can instead slightly increase the AC of the trash mobs (as the vorpal applies only if it is confirmed by a normal hit)

That way this weapon does what it's supposed to do but only for good builds will it actually be effective (the ones with high enough to-hit values same as instant kill spells are effective only on casters with DC of 36+)

AC of trash mobs in epics could be around what is needed for a melee to hit them on a 2+ only if they have "weapon+5" and "+20 base to hit" (what ftg/barb, etc level 20 have) and a attribute (Str/Dex/Cha whatever they use to add to their to-hit value) >38
That would make it a bit more likely that someone with vorpals+1/2 fail to instant kill on a 20 especially if they are not pure melees classes (some splashes or rogues/cleric/whatever) or don't have enough points in their to-hit attributes. (Same as a mob more likely to resist a caster fod if his DC is between 36 and 41)

My PM - first life with a DC of 42 to 43 depending if I yugo her will clear about half the mob in a cod and/or wail ... the rest, debuff it and pick off with fod cc it and necro blast (no sp) and nuke mix to death.

Rogues assasinate ability now work in many of the lower epics like fens really well... did you know that?

Below sub 40 to-hit and you're really not a heavy melee in epic not all mob on a roll of 2 in epic especially during movement... you roll a 20 (+38) = 58 is pretty low.

A tactical below 55 is a rough thing to land ... my +56 on improved trip barely will land on a epic cast.

From an arcane perspective ... they dot the nameds orange, reds, purples but a melee
has to face malicia who has an ac of 68 and the boss in eDA who has an ac on 62... you pretty much want to be running about mid 60's up to hit on agro focus'd toons...

Running red fens yesterday on my fighter ... under raid buffing she about +66 with PA on, I was laxed thru the quest due to answering tells from people outside the party but all in all when it come to the high AC mob I forced her into performance mode and I thought ... gee only bloody reason am here may be for the shard but a fighter/barbs only purpose here is bait for the troll and the end demon... which could have been done on a decent FvS or PM with half the gearing to do so.

Does it matter... I suppose not, I'm impressed when some 6 time TR caster (arcane/divine) solos something difficult... is a good player. A practiced caster however any good player can do that... When you have a melee and a low capped healing/utility/buff time resources - thus the less bells and whistles you have and then you do so - it is far more impressive - a great player.

The Dev's did not wish to turn epics into some type of vorpal fest ... Banishers, disruptors, smiters they actually made useful in epic due to - those weapons were held sway by saves before. Issue though is - they have a vorpal fest already... but is not via the vorpal.

[Emili]

Death spells have DCs (except PW:K), SP costs, timers, and material components. All you need for a Vorpal to go off is to confirm the critical. Pretty big difference, but yes, the current implementation did go overboard.

No... you need to roll a 20 (not just a critical) and then you need to roll to see if you hit, usually about +42 on lower epic trash will get you that (the higher epic trash the to-hit needs to go up or you will get no confirm).

Now then at 11.5 average proc rate (which is the average number of swings it takes to actually roll a 20) and the average gtwf kensie in full fighter haste boost (or rogue) it comes out to a vorpal every six and a half seconds on average... that is about a half second more than the cooldown on FoD alone. Without the 20 second haste boost it is an eight second average.

Given wail, cod and fod are typically cycled any arcane with the DC still have a higher rate of casting insta-kill off quicker than even the highest calibre melee utilizing a pair of vorpals. The only one may be on the down side are the divine with implosion.

A long time ago I tried to explain DC to someone ... basicly To-hit and DC are one in the same - one is for spells and the other melee/range. What is interesting is a high to-hit becomes important in epic ... if you do not believe me ask smrti, and others sporting +55 prebuffed - Who still say they often have to turn off PA on some mob. They're correct. If you do miss on a 2 it is about time to consider turning off PA, a miss on a 3 and is time to turn it off.

Even the epic trash have a min-level ac formidable to the not so geared melee... once you start missing on a 2 those things become very prevalent... they stick out more. Look at it this way... If we rated a toon at 500dps and it swings 2.3 times a second rolling a 2 meant you're half your DPS for that second.

DDO is a fast paced game... people often say - so what I missed what's one more swing? Lets think about this. Let's say the quest takes a group 40 minutes (a slower group) - 2400 seconds ... we'll place six minutes in the squable over some chest and a shrine or two... and we're left with about 2000 seconds of actual meleeing ... about average 4000 swings - if a build can miss every mob in the quest on a two is 222 times (1.88 minutes) on average it has missed throughout which cannot be made up in one extra swing. One second in DDO is actually in fact a long time due it's quick action combat system in gameplay. Think about it spell cooldowns, cure spell cycles, boost timers...

Builds which miss more often like say 5 and below actually can add as much time to the life of a boss... Shall we compound that with five melee becomes we're into minutes <- this is really one of the big differences in long point melee'd at level (lvl 14-16) shrouds aside from DR breakers. I noted a long time ago - at level shrouds are not just DR breakers which count Harry's has a 51 ac on elite, topped by 225k hp in part four and three or four melee get - you roll a 2 (+28) - is not going to get a three rounder even with that DR breaker - we're looking at four rounds maybe more.

BTW... if you want fun out of the shroud, run it at level on elite preferred - about levels 14 to 17. (if trs about drop it down to 12 if they do not mind the utilizing the xp gained early). I assure you will seem like fun and not the everyday xp grind these people play.

[Raithe]

Given wail, cod and fod are cycled any arcane with the DC still have a higher insta-kill chance then even the highest calibre melee utilizing a vorpal. The only one on the down side are the divine with implosion.

The cap on vorpal is protecting melee classes from each other more than anything else. As you pointed out by calling GTWF fighter-20 kensei's with the highest haste boost (and some of the highest attack bonuses and confirmation bonuses) the "highest calibre melee," removing the cap to vorpal would create a huge disparity between existing melee classes.

Everyone would be rolling a fighter-20 kensei with high attack/confirmation bonuses and not much else.

[puget]

The cap on vorpal is protecting melee classes from each other more than anything else. As you pointed out by calling GTWF fighter-20 kensei's with the highest haste boost (and some of the highest attack bonuses and confirmation bonuses) the "highest calibre melee," removing the cap to vorpal would create a huge disparity between existing melee classes.

Everyone would be rolling a fighter-20 kensei with high attack/confirmation bonuses and not much else.

I am guilty of this already, hurc fighter twf dual wielding picks rocks....except for the sacrifice to con, just made that up in mithral getting the most out of it.

And every weapon set I have for constructs, undead, elementals....whatever I use even if it is a +1 version (I am currently level 15 2ranks) BECAUSE of my upped crit/confirmation bonuses, higher threat range, and attack. Add to that I use a +3 seeker heavy pick of pure good in my offhand for EVERY weapon set (seeker +8) and I know what you are saying.

Maybe I should change my position......Perhaps we should de-nerf vorpal....I would get a huge bump from it, and probably even go ahead and buy one.

[KoboldKiller]

The cap on vorpal is protecting melee classes from each other more than anything else. As you pointed out by calling GTWF fighter-20 kensei's with the highest haste boost (and some of the highest attack bonuses and confirmation bonuses) the "highest calibre melee," removing the cap to vorpal would create a huge disparity between existing melee classes.

Everyone would be rolling a fighter-20 kensei with high attack/confirmation bonuses and not much else.

Are you sure cuz there's another thread saying Pale Masters need to be nerfed and people will roll those and nothing else eliminating the need for melee's.

Seriously though, every time someone says something will eliminate the need for something else and that's all people will roll never happens. People claimed when Horcs came out that all people will play is Horc Barbs yet that isn't true. People claimed the nerf to TWF was going to kill the tempest but that didn't happen. This too would not happen.

[Raithe]

Are you sure cuz there's another thread saying Pale Masters need to be nerfed and people will roll those and nothing else eliminating the need for melee's.

Seriously though, every time someone says something will eliminate the need for something else and that's all people will roll never happens. People claimed when Horcs came out that all people will play is Horc Barbs yet that isn't true. People claimed the nerf to TWF was going to kill the tempest but that didn't happen. This too would not happen.

You are definitely playing a different game than me. If it weren't for all the drow/human pale masters in the way, the instance I'm currently in would be a sea of half-orc barbarians.

The last ranger I saw that wasn't an arcane archer? Can't remember...

[Emili]

The cap on vorpal is protecting melee classes from each other more than anything else. As you pointed out by calling GTWF fighter-20 kensei's with the highest haste boost (and some of the highest attack bonuses and confirmation bonuses) the "highest calibre melee," removing the cap to vorpal would create a huge disparity between existing melee classes.

Everyone would be rolling a fighter-20 kensei with high attack/confirmation bonuses and not much else.

Not really considering what kensie bring to the table comparision to other melee classes... tempest 100% offhand, Assasin built in vorpal on every weapon, Kotc high hp smites extra procs on evil, Berzerker just as hit to-hit and heavy 19-20 criticals... My initial point was that vorpal (if did beheading) by any melee is no different than having a few casters in group, Even with a DC overlap...

The last ranger I saw that wasn't an arcane archer? Can't remember...

Believe it or not I tend to favour my rangers ... and usually the tempests. Due to their versitility. In ToD and epics I toss the resists, the FoMs even nuet poison at times. 52 to 54 str running in raids and is not any slacker, evasion which is useful in epics because it get's past the 40 mark reflex save easier... pull out a lit II bow for bursting purposes or those mob which seem to had got away while the party is under stress from a lag spiked near wipe - kiting can be an agro control tactic. Many a ranger have been the kiter in part two ToD. Ranger's although a medium DPS actually have many saving graces when played to the character's abilities.

Lately we do see more horc and helf AA's though. Those races however popular platform for many classes.

[Meetch1972]

Being that the edge was incomperable, would it be asking too much to add extra damage to vorpal weapons? Banishing, smiting and disruption do an extra 4d6 damage to specific enemy types, maybe vorpal could do an extra 2d8 or 2d10 bleeding damage.

Is everything that needs its head susceptible to bleeding? If not, I'd make that untyped damage (an especially tough creature may bounce normal blades off its unbelievably tough neck, whereas the vorpal bites in, or it may move with the blade to decrease the depth of the stroke). But that aside I believe vorpal's moments that make it shine should only ever happen on a 20 (let's at least try to keep recognising the DnD definition of vorpal), and as such its burst of DPS should be significantly higher when you make that roll in order to make up for the drop of frequency.

Come to think of it, that "100" that appears over the mob's head is a bit bland. So would 400 or 500. What about 100 + 50d6 or even 100 + 100d6 on a natural 20?

Maybe Turbine are just using the nerf as a ploy to get us to recycle our old vorpals through crafting deconstruction before de-nerfing them back into usefulness and making them more rare in the loot tables...

[puget]

Is everything that needs its head susceptible to bleeding? If not, I'd make that untyped damage (an especially tough creature may bounce normal blades off its unbelievably tough neck, whereas the vorpal bites in, or it may move with the blade to decrease the depth of the stroke). But that aside I believe vorpal's moments that make it shine should only ever happen on a 20 (let's at least try to keep recognising the DnD definition of vorpal), and as such its burst of DPS should be significantly higher when you make that roll in order to make up for the drop of frequency.

Come to think of it, that "100" that appears over the mob's head is a bit bland. So would 400 or 500. What about 100 + 50d6 or even 100 + 100d6 on a natural 20?

Maybe Turbine are just using the nerf as a ploy to get us to recycle our old vorpals through crafting deconstruction before de-nerfing them back into usefulness and making them more rare in the loot tables...

Reminds me of a joke I once hear....To paraphrase it:
I went to make a pot of coffee today. I was out of coffee. So, I went to the store and bought some coffee. I got back home, opened the coffee.....and found out I had no coffee filters....Back to the store I went. I got home, put filter in pot, then added grounds and thought' my water is off i bet' but NO...I had running water. I made coffee. I picked up my coffee cup......the handle broke off. Not so bad, but the cup fell and broke. I went to the store, and bought 5 new cups. Went home. Poured a cup of coffee......the coffee pot turned off while I was gone, and the coffee was cold. So, I put my cup of coffee in the microwave to warm up. Then I popped a fuse. I replaced the fuse, and you know what I did next?


Threw that coffee maker and the cup and the microwave away.

Those inanimate objects are out to get me I tell you!

Point being, it's not always a conspiracy man, sometimes things just don't work out as you want them to.

[KoboldKiller]

You are definitely playing a different game than me. If it weren't for all the drow/human pale masters in the way, the instance I'm currently in would be a sea of half-orc barbarians.

The last ranger I saw that wasn't an arcane archer? Can't remember...

Yes we clearly are playing a different game. Last night I ran in several PuG's. I was the ONLY Horc in the groups and he's a fighter. I saw only ONE pale master, there were WF sorcs human bards, Tempest Rangers, human clerics, Helf rogue mutt build, not ONE single Horc Barbarian in any of my groups.

As I said, the game and what people are playing is NO different than it has been and all the yelling about classes and races being obsolete is just the same over reaction and misrepresentation that always happens when people cry about races or classes being overpowered.

Also just by cruising the whose on list I still see the same diversification I have always seen.

[Yan_PL]

smiting is the new portal beater. 100 damage on 20 that bypasses insta-death-immunities is worth 5 dmg per hit; if you touch that 100 on vorps, making it 200 or higher, they will become almost universal redname beater, with 10+ added dmg per hit. Now, that strikes me as unbalancing.

You know why banishers, smiters, and disruptors got 4d6 bonus damage, and vorpal didn't? because, a) it wouldn't fit vorpals theme, b) banishers, smiters, and disruptors have usually more limited target group. Although, I believe 4d6 is way too much. I'd say 3d4, averaging to 7.5 would be enough.