Attack Bonus +4 Shard

[Rawel_San]

That would be a different concern. One that revolves around the ML of the item. That seems like a valid discusion to have.

The nonsense, and I repeat nonsense, that equates the base price of recipes as their actual cost is irrelevant as it requires orders of magnitude higher to craft any of the really good recipes in the first place. As long as the leveling costs of crafting are so high it really is pointless to worry about the costs of bound recipes. It's really not that important if you can craft a million +4 attack bonus shards that are BtA. IF there were a huge number of really top notch items that you could and would be making through crafting then the individual costs for BtA recipes would be more relevant. As it stands though besides boss beaters and these goggles there is not a whole lot that people really are bothering with that they couldn't just buy off the AH for a pitance.

See this is called the investment vs. return ratio. You invest in getting to level 100 and then you get to make as
many of these items as you want. As long as their BTA it's only a partial concern. I still think that the actual cost
spread over the number of items you can make is not that great but that might depend on how much you feel
things are worth ( I feel that being able to never again have to craft min II's for any of my characters is worth
quite a bit, to quantify about 5scales/3 stones per thf melee and 10 scales/6 stones per twf melee plus the
cost of blanks). Also we are promised more effects to be introduced (smiting/paralyzing/banishing being the
ones people hope for) if these come in the investment vs. return ratio shifts toward returns again. To be fair
I would probably level crafting even if it just meant I could be sure of being able to craft ml 9 GFL for my chars
and ml 13 +15 skills items, that to me would justify the investment.

But the other thing is lots of things can be crafted unbound and the number of these is set to increase in the
future. Already if I understand it correctly normal banes are craftable unbound (correct me if I'm wrong here
please).

In conclusion while I think the ml 9 is the most glaring problem as is, I am not sure that an effect that is only
found on epic items should be craftable at all. It's a little akin to allowing crafting +3/4 dodge shards or
freedom of movement. There is a reason these don't occur on random drops.

Edit: also I just checked the level of the +4 attack bonus shard .. 84. That means you can craft it at 74. I invested about 1.5mil plat (that's counting
losses incurred by not selling loot) and 4 crafting sessions into my levels so far and I'm at lvl 68. Even assuming I need that again to get the next 6 levels
(which I highly doubt) that will be 3 mil plat. That's about 7 scales on the thelanis market. I would love to see you pull the epic spectrals faster then you get
7 scales worth of stuff. The scroll for the spectrals will cost you at least 3 scales alone. And that's talking about only one of the many items
you can make. I'm sorry but people are hugely overestimating the difficulty of reaching high enough crafting levels to make these items.

Also the two pairs of spectrals might have been hasty but I do believe something that actually costs more then a few k plat should be necessary.

[Scraap]

Fair enough. Any chance you feel at all nervous about the fact that you are comparing a ml 9 item that can be
eventually crafted in 10 mins with 10k worth of stuff to ml 20 epic items which you need to run eOOB or eDeeps
many times to make?

vs one of it's effects after grinding favor and crafting levels?

Not particularly, though if the devs are so very concerned that something that only benefits to-hit should require a character that benefits so little from it that they can complete elite versions of the some of the hardest content in game, well, maybe they should save everyone the headache, and just kill it off. (And no, that's not being hyperbolic in the slightest. I'd rather not see the possibility, than see yet more 'wow, this would have been useful back when it helped' gear. We've enough of that floating around as-is.)

[HelvanderSeries6]

Still stupidly cheap.

They really should have made +3 Attack and left the +4 on Epic gear.

I agree. The existing +4 ab on epic items should remain solitary and should not be matched with craftable gear.

However, I do like the fact the +4 ab can be crafted and so i think the epic bonus should be changed to +5.

I think the Devs should refer back to the source books and raise the plus to hit on epic gear to its non epic
maximum of +5 and since we do not have epic feats or enhancements; i believe this raise would be a fair one.

[QuantumFX]

also didn't they say you couldn't make items that are better then raid gear? show me a piece of raid gear that has +4 attack

Challenge Accepted!


Seriously though. Yeah. This shard is stupid.

[Rawel_San]

+1 QuantumFX.

Good catch. Should have specified remotely useful, or maybe non weapon.

[dingal]

Still stupidly cheap.

They really should have made +3 Attack and left the +4 on Epic gear.

I tend to agree here. I've mad a couple of epic items just to be able to fit +4 into my gearset. Seems a little too easy to get this one.

[dingal]

Challenge Accepted!


Seriously though. Yeah. This shard is stupid.

BBbrbraaaaaaappppftttt

Excuse me. Might want to plug your nose

+1 QuantumFX.

Good catch. Should have specified remotely useful, or maybe non weapon.

Dude storm is top DPS in ddo.

[maddmatt70]

They did, and they were very wrong.

I mean the bravos sword is raid gear..

The hellstroke greataxe is raid gear..

Hell the crappy nightblade is raid gear, and it's nothing more then a +2 keen byesk falcion, very easily to craft the exact same thing, or better.

So the statement was a bit too broad..

Should read epic gear or high lvl raid gear (17+)

I don't see the reason for the arbitrary restriction anyways.

Leveling crafting to lvl100 is far more difficult a grind then completing enough raids to get a specific item. So imo the best crafting should exceed most raid gear, just not epic raid gear, or other rare epics.

Yes the self serving answer. Crafting is easy compared to raiding. You just sit by yourself and do it over and over. Raiding you have to work as a unit to complete a somewhat challenging quest multiple times. Since you have bothered to get your crafting level up by all means lets give you the best loot.

[QuantumFX]

Should have specified remotely useful, or maybe non weapon.

I only know about it cause I pulled one on my last DQ run. I was going to suggest it as an optional recipe to generate this shard. I think it would be cathartic for a lot of players.

[TheDearLeader]

Oh no. A shard that matches a SINGLE ability of an Epic Item. Therefore, it is bad that this item can be crafted.

I've already pointed out the superiority of the one Epic Item that keeps getting come back to, compared to the closest relative in Cannith crafting. Need me to quote myself?

Attack Bonus 4 - Attack Bonus 4 (Equal)
Ethereal - No Ethereal (Spectrals are Better)
Dex + 7 - Int + 6 (Spectrals are Better)
Yellow Slot - No Slot (Spectrals are Better)

How about that. It has one unique ability of 4, requires Yugo favor, which means owning a particular pack, and actually obtaining that favor (which I've found not all people can do).

But no, I guess you guys are right. How dare Cannith crafting have any good abilities that still require some sort of grind without also requiring specific, expensive named loot. Because it approaches 25% the usefulness of one Epic item.

[Rawel_San]

Why do you keep comparing the completely useless ml 20 int+6 attack bonus +4 version?

It's the ml 9 attack bonus +4 version you should be comparing to ML 20 epic spectrals that take forever to get.
Up the ML from 9 to 20 and it becomes a lot less of an issue. I still think that bonuses that only appear
(in a non weapon slot) on epic items should not be craftable essentially for free but if they are ml 20 I have
no where near as much trouble with it. Make them cost a little bit and make them ml 20 or make them cost
a LOT and keep them ml 9.

[TheDearLeader]

Why do you keep comparing the completely useless ml 20 int+6 attack bonus +4 version?

It's the ml 9 attack bonus +4 version you should be comparing to ML 20 epic spectrals that take forever to get.
Up the ML from 9 to 20 and it becomes a lot less of an issue. I still think that bonuses that only appear
(in a non weapon slot) on epic items should not be craftable essentially for free but if they are ml 20 I have
no where near as much trouble with it. Make them cost a little bit and make them ml 20 or make them cost
a LOT and keep them ml 9.

A Rogue could find benefit for Int + 6 Attack Bonus +4 Goggles. You say completely useless; I call them useful, but not nearly as tasty as eSpectrals.

Also, ML:9 is actually ML:11. Why? Cannith Crafting allows us to make and equip accessories a ML step lower than random lootgen - which is a good thing. So you keep coming back to ML:9... but this is obviously something they decided would be, standalone, a ML:11 ability.

You discount Storm - because it doesn't fit your argument. That makes sense.

You discount the benefit of base Spectrals - because it doesn't fit your argument. That makes sense, too. I'd hate for real data to agree with my point.

We've discounted any item that bestows SA bonus instead, because despite a SA item granted both Attack and Damage bonuses, the fact that it's situational to give you twice the abilities seems irksome to you.

So how many more items would you like us to remove from the argument, until your point is the only right one?

You want to more than double their ML because they reproduce a singular ability of an Epic Item (actually, several Epic Items. Epic Storm naturally as well as Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers)? I want to leave their ML relatively low because they are a Prefix, and a singular ability that is eclipsed by named items, as seems was developer intention.

[Rawel_San]

A Rogue could find benefit for Int + 6 Attack Bonus +4 Goggles. You say completely useless; I call them useful, but not nearly as tasty as eSpectrals.

Also, ML:9 is actually ML:11. Why? Cannith Crafting allows us to make and equip accessories a ML step lower than random lootgen - which is a good thing. So you keep coming back to ML:9... but this is obviously something they decided would be, standalone, a ML:11 ability.

It will become a stand alone ml:11 ability once it occurs on randomly generated loot. I would say it's totally
irrelevant though. I'm arguing about being able to craft ml:9 +4 attack bonus goggles. Not about what the ML
of the ability should be or is.

You discount Storm - because it doesn't fit your argument. That makes sense.

The reason I discount storm is because while it does give you +4 attack bonus it at the same time makes you do
no dps. If the goggles come with a you are now slowed to half attack speed and your strength does not get
added to your damage drawback I will include storm in the discussion.

You discount the benefit of base Spectrals - because it doesn't fit your argument. That makes sense, too. I'd hate for real data to agree with my point.

Spectrals have a +2 bonus to attack not a +4. If you are a weapon finesse build that is pressed for slots and
can't slot +6 dex anywhere else (note that spectrals are ml 13 but the dex is only +5) then spectrals are the
way to go. They might also be useful when you are fighting against incorporeal undead. Chances are though
if ethereal is your reason for using them you will be swapping them in and not wearing them full time.

All that said I'm not discounting them. I'm pointing out they are 4 levels higher and the main bonus is lower by
2 for all non finesse builds and all finesse builds that can slot a +6 dex item somewhere else.

We've discounted any item that bestows SA bonus instead, because despite a SA item granted both Attack and Damage bonuses, the fact that it's situational to give you twice the abilities seems irksome to you.

I'm not discounting items that have an SA bonus. The point is they STACK with the bonus from the goggles.
Also they are situational as you point out, but my feeling is you'd want both and it's really hard to compare
them due to the fact that ... wait for it... they STACK.

So how many more items would you like us to remove from the argument, until your point is the only right one?

You want to more than double their ML because they reproduce a singular ability of an Epic Item (actually, several Epic Items. Epic Storm naturally as well as Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers)? I want to leave their ML relatively low because they are a Prefix, and a singular ability that is eclipsed by named items, as seems was developer intention.

Several epic items being three (plus the raven's set assuming it doesn't stack with them, I highly doubt that but
since the only way to check at the moment without crafting is getting either another Epic item or a raid item
albeit rather common one I doubt anyone has checked). I agree that two of those epic items completely
eclipse the crafted goggles (spectrals and vulkoorim fighting leathers) the third one is utterly useless and should
not even be mentioned in polite society (hint hint devs, desert epics pass).

So as I don't go multiple posting and/or editing let me also answer your second post about the masochism
inherent in my posts (this might really be from the GLOB thread but whatever). I'm not particularly masochistic.
The reason I want these items to either cost quite a bit (GLOB,attack +4) or have their ml upped (attack +4),
is two fold.

For one I would rather prefer if power creep was kept to a reasonable minimum. There is no doubt
that power creep will be present we see it in every new update but so far especially with the last couple of
updates have done a good job of making items that mostly fill in gaps (gear lvl 14-18) while not really over
shadowing end game items. The cannith crafting brought in items of completely new power levels both at end
game (+5 HB of GLOB), (+5 HB of GCB with a smiting rune on DT) and especially at low levels. I ran with a
lvl 8 sorc the other day that was completely flabbergasted by the fact that I kept up with 2xTR characters on a
first lifer (I outkilled/matched 2 tr2 monks on a bard/ftr/rog splash in xorian cipher). I explained that I had a imp false life
ring with med guild slot (slotted with 20hp), a holy of undead bane slotted with attack bonus, a holy of
abberation bane slotted with attack bonus a life shield robe of invuln (didn't get that with a slot) and a holy of
humanoid bane. These all together cost me about 100k in ah costs for the base items and 5k in essences.
This makes for an insane divide between new players vs. vets even bigger then the multi TR's are since at least
they have wings to warn people. This to me is one reason why upping the ML of the goggles is a good idea or
at least making them cost something.

The other reason I would like the really awesome shards to have reasonable associated costs is that I like this
game and would like to continue playing it. Top tier items should be hardish to come by and you should not be
able to mass produce them even if it only for your own alts. If a weapon is the 2nd best DPS in game against
one of the most important mobs it should cost accordingly.

[sirgog]

If you're tanking, I sorely hope you don't *need* an Attack Bonus +4 shard, so I find that point to be moot.

I know very few melees that can hit Turigulon on a 2 while in a bardless group, not getting Sneak Attack/Flanking bonuses and with Power Attack on. He's a boss that is usually tanked, and often by melee classes (although sometimes by DoT casters).

When DPSing him in a bardless group, I always break my epic Claw set to put on Epic Spectrals.


Still, this shard is far inferior to eSpectrals, but is a good stepping stone into Epics.

[TheDearLeader]

I know very few melees that can hit Turigulon on a 2 while in a bardless group, not getting Sneak Attack/Flanking bonuses and with Power Attack on. He's a boss that is usually tanked, and often by melee classes (although sometimes by DoT casters).

When DPSing him in a bardless group, I always break my epic Claw set to put on Epic Spectrals.


Still, this shard is far inferior to eSpectrals, but is a good stepping stone into Epics.

Tell me more about these... "Bardless Groups" you speak of.

I dunno, I imagine a Kensei with a Greater Bane can tank him with PA on. The couple of times I've tanked Turigulon on my Pally, I used Epic Spectrals and Destruction (Epic Chimerica's Fang) though, so I couldn't really say.

[IBCROOTBEER]

Why do you keep comparing the completely useless ml 20 int+6 attack bonus +4 version?

It's the ml 9 attack bonus +4 version you should be comparing to ML 20 epic spectrals that take forever to get.
Up the ML from 9 to 20 and it becomes a lot less of an issue. I still think that bonuses that only appear
(in a non weapon slot) on epic items should not be craftable essentially for free but if they are ml 20 I have
no where near as much trouble with it. Make them cost a little bit and make them ml 20 or make them cost
a LOT and keep them ml 9.

you are completely right rawl san ... any level 9 character will easily have the amrath favor required to craft this item and have better than raid loot ... you win ....

oh wait ... amrath is lvl 19 not 9 ... Doh ...

so you mean that a person must first lvl a toon to nearly cap in order to make a level 9 item that will finally be, as YOU state YOUR opinion, "better" than raid loot that he could have used at 13 ... oh ok, clearly i see how they compare ...

as to my opinion ... I like being able to slot multiple benefits to one gear slot, so i'll stick with tharnes and spectrals over a single solitary bonus item ...

and i know, its terrible for a person that reached 20, ground out the favor and the crafting levels, to be able to craft so called "twink" gear for their TR or lowbies to grind to 20 again ...

[sirgog]

you are completely right rawl san ... any level 9 character will easily have the amrath favor required to craft this item and have better than raid loot ... you win ....

oh wait ... amrath is lvl 19 not 9 ... Doh ...

so you mean that a person must first lvl a toon to nearly cap in order to make a level 9 item that will finally be, as YOU state YOUR opinion, "better" than raid loot that he could have used at 13 ... oh ok, clearly i see how they compare ...

as to my opinion ... I like being able to slot multiple benefits to one gear slot, so i'll stick with tharnes and spectrals over a single solitary bonus item ...

and i know, its terrible for a person that reached 20, ground out the favor and the crafting levels, to be able to craft so called "twink" gear for their TR or lowbies to grind to 20 again ...

The +4 To-Hit is significant while levelling, but doesn't really match the power level of Ioun Stones.

[Shade]

meh.

It's a freaking LEVEL84 Arcane shard. And given the high cost, no you wont be attempting it at lvl74 with 50% chance to lose 5 very valuable purified shards.

I bet 99% of the ppl complaining are no where near lvl84 in arcane. It's an INSANELY LONG AND EXPENSIVE GRIND.

I'd wager for the cost it takes you to lvl to 84 arcane, you could buy 10 epic spectral glove scrolls.

So yes, once your there - it might be a bit easier to gear all your alts. But getting there?
NOT EASY.

(oh yea lvl info is from wiki, which may be outdated if they changed this shard, could be even higher now)

[sirgog]

meh.

It's a freaking LEVEL84 Arcane shard. And given the high cost, no you wont be attempting it at lvl74 with 50% chance to lose 5 very valuable purified shards.

I bet 99% of the ppl complaining are no where near lvl84 in arcane. It's an INSANELY LONG AND EXPENSIVE GRIND.

I'd wager for the cost it takes you to lvl to 84 arcane, you could buy 10 epic spectral glove scrolls.

So yes, once your there - it might be a bit easier to gear all your alts. But getting there?
NOT EASY.

(oh yea lvl info is from wiki, which may be outdated if they changed this shard, could be even higher now)

I think they lowered it to something in the 70s. Could be wrong - I did look it up on Lamannia, but didn't write it down or anything. (Edit - I meant crafting level)

[Scraap]

I think they lowered it to something in the 70s. Could be wrong - I did look it up on Lamannia, but didn't write it down or anything.

84 arcane, 10 greater mind, 80 lesser, 5 purified, yugo mark, and mystical plant at time of writing.
The 10% alacrity shards are in the 70's though. and have no (Ok, I'll be PC about it) funky requirements.